First person pitfalls

[Voight-Kampff]

So, I'm pretty new to the concept of VNs. I've done plenty of writing in my day, but not once have I ever had an occasion to write from a 1st person perspective (well, okay, maybe I DID...like in a 10th grade English class, or something similar).

I'm curious to find out from those that have written in 1st person - just how difficult do you find it?

To me, it seems like it wouldn't be too hard to "stay in character" after a little while of writing in the format. But I'm more concerned about how the story structure evolves. What sort of pitfalls have you come across when you have to stick with one person's perspective the whole time? Do you find it necessary to switch to third person occasionally? Or is that just a crutch? One that just might wind up confusing the reader?

[Samu-kun]

The biggest thing I don't like about the first person is that it's difficult to display the actions of characters that are not connected to the narrator. For example, let's use an anime like Gundam 00, which is naturally displayed in the third person. When we're watching the anime, we know the back stories of the Gundam Meisters since the perspective can switch between the characters. Not only that, but we can see what each of them are doing at any given time, even when they are separated from each other.

This is not so in a first person, since the narration is solely focused on the thoughts and observations of a single character. So it's impossible to know the back stories of other characters, unless they decide to tell the narrator about it. In addition, when the characters split up, we only know what's going on with the narrator and don't necessarily see the actions of the other characters.

In a team based story, like Gundam (starring the Gundam Meisters), Nanoha StrikerS (starring Nanoha, Fate, Hayate, and their team), or Bamboo Blade (starring the girl's kendo team), this makes it difficult to portray the actions of all the members of the team and in the end, it becomes the story of an individual rather than of a team.

The obvious way to get around this is to use shifting POV's. For example, one could divide a story into five chapters and have it narrated by a different member of the team.

Another way is through indirect methods - for example, the members of the team can communicate with each other through video or radio when they're separated. (Works the best in sci-fi settings.)

A third way is through story branches. You could have one branch where the narrator stays with only one other character, and make it a story of a partnership rather than a team. The player would then have to play the story multiple times to figure out what all the characters are about.

[Aleema]

The story I'm writing in first person is actually past-tense, because they're recalling the story and telling the player. So if there's any extra info that they wouldn't have known at the time but they should know, I just say something like: "I later found out that he had already went to the store ..." or "It later came to be that he would ask Mary for a date ..." and such. :p

[Voight-Kampff]

This is not so in a first person, since the narration is solely focused on the thoughts and observations of a single character. So it's impossible to know the back stories of other characters, unless they decide to tell the narrator about it. In addition, when the characters split up, we only know what's going on with the narrator and don't necessarily see the actions of the other characters.

Ah yes. I've given thought to that very issue.

The example I like to use is Bleach. It's got a million, zillion characters. And all of them together make up the story of the Bleach universe. If one were to write a first person perspective story from, oh, let's say Chad's point of view, one effectively wouldn't have the same story any more.

A third way is through story branches. You could have one branch where the narrator stays with only one other character, and make it a story of a partnership rather than a team. The player would then have to play the story multiple times to figure out what all the characters are about.

*nodsnods*

Yeah. It seems to me like that's one of the more common ways around the issue. If one can't get all the details one wants in a branch, make multiple branches and convey them all that way. Although, it still seems like one has to rely on tricks and shortcuts that normally wouldn't be needed in 3rd person.

Something I noticed in Fate Stay Night is that Nasu did resort to using 3rd person perspective from time to time. It's been a while, but from what I recall, in UBW, it was used to pretty good effect, IMHO. But in HF, it seemed like he kept flip-flopping back and forth. It seemed rather disorienting. And it's that example that concerned me about using 3rd person.

The story I'm writing in first person is actually past-tense, because they're recalling the story and telling the player. So if there's any extra info that they wouldn't have known at the time but they should know, I just say something like: "I later found out that he had already went to the store ..." or "It later came to be that he would ask Mary for a date ..." and such. :p

Ah. That's an interesting tact. Although, if it's all past tense, and other characters are telling the player what occurred, does the player actually get to make any active choices that might effect the story? Um, well, then again, I suppose it wouldn't matter if you're not really going for a branching story. Thinking back to something like Saya no Uta, there were, what? Three choices in the game?

I suppose some times branching be damned - the author is the person best qualified to determine where the story is going.

[blankd]

(Sorry OP) I didn't know that one of the rules of VN was to have a first person perspective. o_O

[Aleema]

Ah. That's an interesting tact. Although, if it's all past tense, and other characters are telling the player what occurred, does the player actually get to make any active choices that might effect the story? Um, well, then again, I suppose it wouldn't matter if you're not really going for a branching story. Thinking back to something like Saya no Uta, there were, what? Three choices in the game?

Nonsense! My story branches plenty. You just have a system to check if you tell the player "I went to the supermarket" versus "I went to sleep." It's interactive, and in all honestly, my character isn't breaking the fourth wall and telling the player directly what happened, but instead to some other someone ... so it's still like the player is telling the story and making the decisions.

(Sorry OP) I didn't know that one of the rules of VN was to have a first person perspective. o_O

You're absolutely right. People are just used the the Japanese VNs that try to self-insert you. A good story doesn't NEED self-insertion, but a simulation might. Therefore, dating sims = usually first-person.

[pinkmouse]

You're absolutely right. People are just used the the Japanese VNs that try to self-insert you. A good story doesn't NEED self-insertion, but a simulation might. Therefore, dating sims = usually first-person.

Isn't it also because it makes the art simpler?

I think it might be really effective to tell a story in 3rd person: just use cinematic conventions to keep the player oriented.

e.g.
scene: Alice and Betty talking.

(POV back of Alice foreground, Betty visible over her shoulder)
Alice: Hi Betty!

(POV reverse-shot: Back of Betty foreground, Alice visible over her shoulder)
Betty: Hi Alice! Are you coming to Charlie's party tonight?

etc.

------------

But look at the different amounts of art required:

With the "standard" first person (the player's VP being Alice) you only need the background plus a sprite for Betty.

With the "cinematic" style (the player's VP being the "camera"), in order to describe the changes of viewpoint, you'd need four character sprites (Alice and Betty, both back and front of) plus two backgrounds (the 3D space as seen from the viewpoint of Alice and Betty respectively.)

So I'd say it's not a case of VNs being required to be first person*, it's just that this requires the least amount of art resources.

*or as other posters have pointed out, a succession of viewpoints in first person.

[Aleema]

Yeah, you can always count on the Japanese to find the shortcuts.
Though I do think the main reason is to self-insert you. If you compare VNs to pornography (in most cases, usually not that different), you'll find that porn invokes the faceless man and camera-POV for that very reason. Not that I would know, of course.

[microgamer2vs2]

I'm curious as to how a 3rd person perspective for a VN would work out. I know Fate Stay Night was mentioned, but does anyone know other VNs that use 3rd person once or throughout the game? It could be a game originating from here, doesn't matter. Don't mean to hijack this thread >_>

[Showsni]

Of course, in a Visual Novel you can use second person if you want to; staple of Choose Your Own Adventure books everywhere!

I think the main point is one of consistency. If you start off first person but accidently throw in some third person phrases it's going to be a bit jarring. If you have some system; like, it's all first person except for a few dream sequences which always shift to third person; then it's probably okay.

The obvious way to get around this is to use shifting POV's. For example, one could divide a story into five chapters and have it narrated by a different member of the team.

Good old Animorphs... Jake, Rachel, Tobias/Ax, Cassie, Marco, repeat! Until it got near the end, then all six got an equal amount of story time.

The story I'm writing in first person is actually past-tense, because they're recalling the story and telling the player. So if there's any extra info that they wouldn't have known at the time but they should know, I just say something like: "I later found out that he had already went to the store ..." or "It later came to be that he would ask Mary for a date ..." and such. :p

Makes me think of Monkey Island 2.

"Horse hockey. You honestly expect me to believe you were disintegrated in acid."
"Sure, well I --"
"And yet here you are telling me all about it, looking very integrated indeed."
"Yes, well, that is...ah...OK, so I embellished it a little for dramatic effect. Sue me."
"You want to try telling me what REALLY happened?"