Obtaining one's artistic talent

[Samu-kun]

The hatchet-job you've given us of the guy and your working arrangement over this thread and on your site - including the notion that over six months you'd managed to complete a single scene amongst the six-hour arguments and back-and-forth over concessions - kind of suggest that your working relationship with Sixten was far from ideal. IMO if you're sitting around thinking your team-mates are buffoons, there's something wrong.

Well, that's not really quite true. To get the first scene, there were a hell of a lot of things we had to do first. First thing, we had to agree on the scene by scene summary of the entire game, which was actually what most of the arguments were based on, then we had to agree on the final character designs, which also was full of debate. (But for good reason, since we both knew that it would probably be impossible to change these later) But by the time the first scene was in there, we had pretty much agreed on what the characters will look like throughout the game and pretty much the entire story, so there generally wasn't much to argue about after that point. (There were a lot of other art assets made that were going to be used in the game too, but they weren't put in yet because we never got that far) If you think that I didn't enjoy working with Sixten, you'd be wrong. It was fun, and sometimes more so just because we couldn't agree. Half the time, I was trying to add more screen time for the genki girl and Sixten was always fighting for more attention for the little sister, so even though we shook our heads at each other sometimes and sighed in exasperation, it was pretty fun working with him.

Bartering generally worked with us because most of our conflicts couldn't be solved rationally. There is no rational way to convince Sixten that glasses really aren't as moe as he thinks they are and there is no rational way to convince me that putting hair bands on top of girls does not make them cuter. So I just forgot about logic and just told him that I wouldn't mind if he drew a character with glasses if he also drew a character with a hair band.

[Wintermoon]

You are attempting to universalize your reaction by projecting it onto Samu-kun's hypothetical artist - a sign that you think your reaction is the "right" reaction.[/list]

It's certainly true that I think it's "right" that bartering concessions is an unhealthy thing for free-project teams to be indulging in. If I didn't, it would be rather foolish to suggest it, no? You obviously think that it's "wrong" that bartering concessions is unhealthy, or you wouldn't have said that you had no problem with it. But we are getting rather distracted from the point of the thread, to be honest.

You would be offended by someone offering to barter. ==> Thanks for sharing.
Everybody would be offended by someone offering to barter. ==> Obviously wrong.
Everybody should be offended by someone offering to barter. ==> Don't tell me what to feel.
Regardless of whether or not anybody takes offense, it's unhealthy. ==> I think it depends on the situation and the people involved. Being able to list situations where the disagreement can be resolved without bartering doesn't advance your argument. Assuming these situations does even less.

Again, you're presuming argument rather than discussion, while people who respect each other will generally discuss before resorting to argument.

Po-tah-toe, po-tay-toe.

If the most-assertive person is 'winning' all the time, it probably suggests that that person isn't actually giving the proper time of day to other people's suggestions. But if there's genuinely a case where there are two incompatible options and both have such strong arguments for and against that a pair of reasonable adults having a reasonable conversation can't decide between them, then I would - to be honest - prefer to flip a coin than resort to bartering. If a reasonable project team can't settle on an answer between them, it's reasonable to conclude that the result is going to be equally-bad/equally-good whichever option is taken, so it doesn't really matter in the end which one is chosen. Alternatively, pick the option which involves the least extra work, and only flip a coin if they're equal in that regard too. Sure, someone might get all of their contentious ideas withdrawn by luck like this, but the more-important thing is that it's not the fault of their project-mates, it's down to luck.

I would take great offense at the suggestion of using a coin flip to resolve any important creative differences. If the other person is willing to accept a 50% chance of not getting his way, then that person obviously doesn't care as much about the issue as I do. I'm not willing to accept that 50% chance, and if the other person is, than that person should just concede already.

[Jake]

You would be offended by someone offering to barter. ==> Thanks for sharing.
Everybody would be offended by someone offering to barter. ==> Obviously wrong.

It's pretty obvious that there are going to be people who don't care at all. All I said in the first place before you got in such a huff about it was that "it suggests" that partners don't respect each other. It shouldn't be necessary for me to write "obviously this is only my opinion and my experience and there will be people who disagree" after every single thing I say, and you're being incredibly unreasonable if you try to presume that everything I say I'm trying to dictate as absolute truth.

But then:

Again, you're presuming argument rather than discussion, while people who respect each other will generally discuss before resorting to argument.

Po-tah-toe, po-tay-toe.

If you think that there's no semantic difference between a discussion and an argument, in the sense that most normal people use those words, then we're clearly speaking in completely different langauges which happen to use the same shapes, and there's really no point at all us continuing.

If the other person is willing to accept a 50% chance of not getting his way, then that person obviously doesn't care as much about the issue as I do. I'm not willing to accept that 50% chance, and if the other person is, than that person should just concede already.

To me, you're just painting yourself as unreasonable and intractable, which suggests to me that you wouldn't really be that willing to properly discuss changes to your grand creative vision in the first place. It sounds a lot like "this is my grand creative vision and there can be no interference because you plebians don't understand my genius", which is - guess what - disrespecting your partner. If you think they're so inferior to you, work on your own. But then, I may be being influenced by stuff you've posted in the past along a similar line. (And I seem to recall you've said before that you prefer to work on your own to avoid such arguments, so if I'm remembering correctly, I'm not sure what you're even doing posting in a thread about collaboration.)

Personally, I'm pretty sure I've literally never got into the situation where there's some issue that a conclusion cannot be reached to via discussion, so things like coin flips have never come up. But I maintain that they're a better way of resolving such issues than barter, and your reaction is irrational if you're willing to accept barter: to barter, you need two such issues, and you need to accept that you're going to have your way in one and not in the other... which is a 50% 'success', if you want to think about it in those terms. If you barter, you're setting up a confrontational policy with your partner; if you flip a coin, you're not, but it has the same mathematical result over sufficient instances.

(And if you don't have two such issues of equal difficulty to resolve, then you're deliberately trying to fob your partner off with something you don't care about, which you should have already conceeded without a thought, to get at something he does - which means that you're trying to take that dominant, gets-everything-he-wants role that you yourself suggested wasn't good in your previous post...)

[Wintermoon]

All I said in the first place before you got in such a huff about it was that "it suggests" that partners don't respect each other.

You also said this:

trading is essentially saying "I know you're wrong but I also know that you're too stubborn to ever give it up, so I'll make some concession I don't care about to pacify you and make it more likely you'll accept my way on this thing".

Frankly, I find the above statement insulting, and wrong, so I responded to that statement specifically.

If you think that there's no semantic difference between a discussion and an argument, in the sense that most normal people use those words, then we're clearly speaking in completely different langauges which happen to use the same shapes, and there's really no point at all us continuing.

English is not my first language, so I looked up "argument" and "discussion".

Argument:
1. an oral disagreement; verbal opposition; contention; altercation: a violent argument.
2. a discussion involving differing points of view; debate: They were deeply involved in an argument about inflation.

Discussion:
1 : consideration of a question in open and usually informal debate

If the other person is willing to accept a 50% chance of not getting his way, then that person obviously doesn't care as much about the issue as I do. I'm not willing to accept that 50% chance, and if the other person is, than that person should just concede already.

To me, you're just painting yourself as unreasonable and intractable, which suggests to me that you wouldn't really be that willing to properly discuss changes to your grand creative vision in the first place.

I'm willing to discuss, compromise, barter, even concede. I'm not going to gamble with my creative vision.

This whole discussion has just underlined my original statement in this thread. I'm glad I'm not working on a team with you. We just don't see eye to eye. You keep reading subtext into my statements that just isn't there, and I may have done the same to your statements.

It sounds a lot like "this is my grand creative vision and there can be no interference because you plebians don't understand my genius", which is - guess what - disrespecting your partner. If you think they're so inferior to you, work on your own.

This is the point where you crossed the line of what I am willing to tolerate. Please stop.

But then, I may be being influenced by stuff you've posted in the past along a similar line. (And I seem to recall you've said before that you prefer to work on your own to avoid such arguments, so if I'm remembering correctly, I'm not sure what you're even doing posting in a thread about collaboration.)

I prefer to work alone, but that doesn't mean I have never successfully worked in a team. I'm actually usually the guy who makes the most concessions, since I tend to see every objection as an ultimatum. Hence my dislike for working in teams.

(And if you don't have two such issues of equal difficulty to resolve, then you're deliberately trying to fob your partner off with something you don't care about, which you should have already conceeded without a thought, to get at something he does - which means that you're trying to take that dominant, gets-everything-he-wants role that you yourself suggested wasn't good in your previous post...)

The whole point of bartering is that not all issues are equally important to both partners.

There are issues that I just don't care about, so I'll accept my partner's suggestion without argument and without treating it as a concession.

There are issues that I do care about, but I'm willing to concede (without bartering) if my partner feels more strongly about them than I do.

There are issues that I feel strongly about. I'm willing to compromise or barter on these issues, but I'm not willing to concede on all of them or I'll feel like I have no creative input on the project. Ideally, these issues should be resolved before the project starts.

Finally, there are the issues that I absolutely won't concede, because without them, my interest in the project dies. Ideally, these issues should not come up in the first place. If they do come up during the project, I'm willing to concede on any other issue to protect that one critical issue. I'm also willing to walk away from the project if my partner is not willing to accept any compromise or trade.

[chronoluminaire]

For what it's worth, I agree with Jake here.
If people have such different views of what a project should be, and such tangled responsibilities, that they need to resort to bartering away the parts that are less important just to be able to keep working together, then... well, it certainly doesn't sound like how I'd want to work, anyway.

I think big six-hour disagreements about the content of a project just shouldn't happen. Frankly, I can't imagine working on a VN with the kind of division of responsibilities where I'd be able to say "I was trying to add more screen time for character X and my collaborator was always fighting for more attention for character Y". Either you've got overall creative responsibility and final say, or they have, or you have some kind of joint committee-style management. That kind of argument should only happen in the committee-style structure. And while some people might be able to make committee-style management work, it doesn't seem ideal for VNs to me - and in particular, I think "looking for an artist" doesn't normally mean "looking for another committee member".

Of the six VNs I've seriously worked on, four of them I've been writer and had final say, and SunKitten has been artist; and she's never expected to have creative input in anything other than the art-related aspects, though she's made suggestions a number of which I've considered. The other two I've worked on in a more minor role, and I've not been writer or had final say, and I wouldn't expect suggestions I made to be treated as anything other than suggestions, for the person with final say to consider and accept or discard as they wish.

[Jake]

You also said this

Seriously, just assume that everything I say has "in my opinion", "as far as I can tell" or "in my experience" in front of it, it'll make a lot more sense. The only time anyone should intend their words to be taken as absolutes is if they're talking about maths or science, and even then everything's up for debate.

English is not my first language, so I looked up "argument" and "discussion".

Then I apologise for making the assumption, your written English is good to the point that I had no idea.

To most people, in English, in common usage, the connotation is that a 'discussion' is civil and carried out calmy and respectfully, while an 'argument' is not those things. If you're talking about a debate society or politics or something you might use 'argument' to describe the position someone's taking, but usually it means a shouting match.

The whole point of bartering is that not all issues are equally important to both partners.
...
There are issues that I feel strongly about. I'm willing to compromise or barter on these issues, but I'm not willing to concede on all of them or I'll feel like I have no creative input on the project. Ideally, these issues should be resolved before the project starts.

You were talking earlier about the situation where both partners are adamant about an issue; if one of them is willing to compromise then discussion should lead to compromise, and it's my experience that the only times that discussion can't lead to compromise is when one partner is not taking that discussion seriously; it shouldn't get to bartering or flipping coins or anything in the situation where at least one person is willing to talk.

And sure, sometimes it's always the same person who's willing to talk, and that person has to ask themselves whether they can put up with being in that project team, because if the other person is never willing to talk it again suggests that they don't have any time for their partner's ideas.

Finally, there are the issues that I absolutely won't concede, because without them, my interest in the project dies.
...
I'm also willing to walk away from the project

Sure, and there's always going to be incompatibilities between people and ideas from time to time that mean some teams just won't ever work. And some people, as you point out yourself, just prefer to work on their own for various reasons. I'm not trying to say that anybody should be able to work with anybody else without fail, that would be foolish - I'm saying that in my opinion, and in my experience, if you're getting to the point that you're trying to barter concessions because you can't reach a resolution through discussion, then you might as well just walk away, because the cooperative relationship is probably doomed. I'm firmly of the opinion that for most people, bartering is a sign of a failure to respectfully communicate and an reinforcement that encourages them to continue to fail to do so.

[Samu-kun]

I think big six-hour disagreements about the content of a project just shouldn't happen.

(Another clarification - the six hour long argument dealt with the scene by scene summary of the entire game, which we both knew that we could not be significantly alter once we put both our seals of approval on it. And it was a big scene by scene summary. We were both committing at least 10 hours of work on this project per week for the next two years of our lives to this project, so neither of us was going to accept until we knew for certain that this would be something that we would both like enough for that kind of a commitment.)

There was still daily lobbying for more little sister though. But that was a part of what made working with him fun. By the end, I think I relented and thought that little sisters can be cute sometimes too.

[Wintermoon]

Seriously, just assume that everything I say has "in my opinion", "as far as I can tell" or "in my experience" in front of it, it'll make a lot more sense. The only time anyone should intend their words to be taken as absolutes is if they're talking about maths or science, and even then everything's up for debate.

I can still take issue with your opinion.

To clarify, I don't have a problem with you saying that you don't like bartering. I do have a problem with you expressing that opinion in a way that is insulting to people who use bartering. And I really think you are objectively wrong when you read disrespectful intent into every attempt at bartering.

You were talking earlier about the situation where both partners are adamant about an issue; if one of them is willing to compromise then discussion should lead to compromise, and it's my experience that the only times that discussion can't lead to compromise is when one partner is not taking that discussion seriously; it shouldn't get to bartering or flipping coins or anything in the situation where at least one person is willing to talk.

I guess the key point for me is that there are situation where out of a group of issues, I'm willing to concede on any one individually, but not on all of them at once. In a situation like this, asking my partner to pick which issues are most important to them seems like the best approach to me.

[Voight-Kampff]

While overall, the conversation HAS illustrated a key element of the potential problems one might face when pairing up with others on LSF, it seems that matters have strayed a bit too far off topic.

As the OP, I'd respectfully ask that if any of you want to continue your discussion about personal behavior, please take it to PM.

[Ren]

About the discussion, I think it's highly subjective who reads too much in whose words. I'd remind everyone to try and acknowledge that they might see in other people's behaviour things that they do as well.

I'm kind of wary of suggesting this, but here it goes:

there also seem to be a good number of people interested in VNs at Y gallery. I remember suggesting both Sylph and Renpy to them, and i assume you might want to keep them in mind. I can't link you from here, as I'm at work and the site is mostly yaoi-centric (but some of the drawers are way too talented to discount them just because they draw either BL or yaoi).

As it goes, Mangabullet is a good place as well.

If you don't mind a bit more of a general advice, I'd try to also think in terms of interests - if you want to work on a vampire novel with maids, try looking for that kind of illustration in whichever gallery you're visiting, study your prey... ahem, prospective artist, and try to contact them exposing your selling points (one thing I find irritating is receiving requests from people who don't want to even share the gist of their story, when they're basically asking me to devote my time to their project).

So, yes: if you're looking for people, I'd say I'd go around as much as possible, and ask around - it never hurts!

[Deji]

(...)
If you don't mind a bit more of a general advice, I'd try to also think in terms of interests - if you want to work on a vampire novel with maids, try looking for that kind of illustration in whichever gallery you're visiting, study your prey... ahem, prospective artist, and try to contact them exposing your selling points (one thing I find irritating is receiving requests from people who don't want to even share the gist of their story, when they're basically asking me to devote my time to their project).
(...)

That.
Sometimes I get people wanting me to draw mecha, extreme erotic scenes, and muscular fighting guys when all my gallery is filled with nothing but pseudo-moeblobs just standing there with happy faces.
Studying the skills of the artist and their preferred themes before approaching them doesn't hurt ^^;

[EDIT: rephrased it better]

[pkt]

Thinking on what Deji said I think it's a good idea for artists to mention what kind of art they are good at and what they'd like to work on. If you're looking for people to work on art for you you'd be better off giving something to work with. References to how things should look, details as far as things should look but keep in mind things might not be dead on like it is in your mind.

[tooaya]

As an artist (who's currently working on a VN project), I think collaboration is the most important. I would work best if the team members all agree on the content that we are working on. Artists are not slaves, we like to have our opinion counted too. If I like the project, even if I am not paid, even if the game might not end up be popular, I'd still be motivated to work on it.

For the current project that I am working on, I was the one who suggested the genre, which involves the type that I like the best. I never have completed a game before, but now I'm very excited to finish this project seeing as all the team members have put efforts into it. I guess what I'm saying is that while finding skilled artist is definitely a plus, work ethic and motivation are just as important, and this is not just on the artist him/herself, but on everyone working on the project.

...dunno if this is a little off-topic, since I didn't really read the 3 pages argument. >>;

[Tsurukiri]

@Voight-Kampff': I'd say seek artists here but also go out. LSF is a tiny forum. While there are artists on board who like visual novels, not all of them have time to work on your particular project.

@Ghurdrich: How far the charity extends depends on the person. In my case I only do free work for my friends.

Having read the thread above, it would be a nightmare for me if I'd get into a project with no clear instructions on what to draw from the start, and the project changing in scope in the middle of it. For example, when I did illustrations for a short story, I got the *completed* script with instructions on how many illustrations were needed, for which scenes, with additional information on any specifics needed. And, there was a deadline, too. A total horror story of unpaid work is a project that drags on and on for years, preventing me from doing anything else. When searching for artists, convince them that this is not going to happen with your project.

So some things to consider:

- Finish the script first, only then give it to artist.
- If the artist is not your friend, you might get them on board more easily if you pay them. Pros are no go, but you might be surprised for how little money some students are willing to work for. Investing little money on your project makes you appear that you are serious about it, too.
- Provide your artist all the details from the day one. Artists hate to make endless corrections because you did not provide clear instructions in the first place. In fact, what you do not specify, is considered to be left on the artists interpretation.
- Set a schedule and a deadline for the project. Stick to it.
- If your project is big, and not a commercial release, release it in smaller chunks that can be finished in say three months each.

[PinkMagus]

This also suggests you don't respect your artists. Maybe your artists also don't respect you. One does not need to perform trades with a person one respects; trading is essentially saying "I know you're wrong but I also know that you're too stubborn to ever give it up, so I'll make some concession I don't care about to pacify you and make it more likely you'll accept my way on this thing". You're saying "I don't think you respect my opinion enough to ever make a change I suggest without me paying you off for it", and giving the signal that you don't respect theirs enough to do so, either. Not to mention that fundamentally, bartering with someone is treating them as the enemy - trying to get as much out of them as possible while giving as little in return.

It's this tendency to think in terms of "right" and "wrong" that makes me glad I don't have to work with you.

There's nothing objectively "right" or "wrong" about giving the protagonist a ponytail. It's completely subjective. I think the first part of respecting your partner is accepting that they aren't wrong, they just have a different artistic vision than you. Either the artistic visions can be reconciled through some sort of compromise (which will involve concessions on both sides, often through some sort of bartering), or they cannot (in which case the team usually breaks up).

I don't have a problem with making concessions, but when my partner calls my idea "wrong", I feel invalidated.

I don't think it doesn't mean there could be a 'wrong'.

What if the character in question has a terrible past being beaten up and gagged by girls using their own ponytails, and then vowwed to never wear a pony tail and makes a point of it wearing a shirt that says "PONYTAILS ARE FOR EVIL PEOPLE". It seems like saying it is incorrect to simply draw them with a pony tail is a point of something just not fitting with the story.

Or for a less drastic reason, someone who is missing an eye to be draw with both eyes.