The "Critique Please" initiative

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unknown5
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Re: The "Critique Please" initiative

#16 Post by unknown5 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:18 pm

yeah, ceepee has pedo connotations. how 'bout "Open Critique" [OC]?

call wuh

what if in the "Skill Development" section, u have five threads (stickied or floating, dunno). if u want critiques, just post a brief description and a link to your project, work, art, samples, etc. into the appropriate thread.

call wuh

ex.
- Open Critique - VISUAL (art, cg, sprites, bg, overlays, fonts, etc.)
- Open Critique - AUDIO (music, bgm, voice, etc.)
- Open Critique - WRITING (characters, plot, dialogue, storytelling, grammar, typos, etc.)
- Open Critique - PROGRAM/GAMEPLAY (script, code, gameplay, user-friendliness, ui controls, file size, etc.)
- Open Critique - PROJECT (everything - or poster can mention specific areas they prefer)

actual comments shouldn't be posted in those threads and should be removed. just links to the project to be critiqued.

call wuh

edit: and maybe a MISC category for the peculiar things that fall through the cracks.
edit2: this might make it more convenient for the reviewer since they may prefer to give opinions on mostly art or music or writing or gameplay, etc. or not.
edit3: call wuh

jump theend

label wuh:
"or sumthin. dunno."
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Re: The "Critique Please" initiative

#17 Post by sayuri » Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:00 pm

If you are serious about having more critiques, look at this site: http://www.youngwritersonline.net/

They have a separate forum for critique posts. The idea is that you must critique to earn points and you spend points when posting a thread with some of your work. I'm not sure the points system would work here though. Also, serious critiquing sorta falls into beta testing o_O. Maybe there should be a 'private forum' for critiques so that those awaiting the project won't get spoiled? I'm just throwing ideas out there :P.

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Re: The "Critique Please" initiative

#18 Post by Jake » Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:51 pm

Firstly, it should be pretty obvious that I'm all for more critique...
unknown5 wrote: what if in the "Skill Development" section, u have five threads (stickied or floating, dunno). if u want critiques, just post a brief description and a link to your project, work, art, samples, etc. into the appropriate thread.
Personally, I agree strongly with PyTom's earlier concern on this subject; being open for critique should be the default, not something you have to specifically ask for. How about people mark their stuff if they don't want critique? Again, to me this comes down to the distinction between whether the LSF is a creative development community or not: if it is, then critique should be encouraged and expected, because it's an important part of creative development; if it isn't, then it's lost something, and I think it's a shame.

Failing that, though: generally, simpler approaches are better, and coming up with more than one extra tag or extra threads is likely to just mean more people don't act in accordance with the intent for one reason or another. And if it really has to come down to a "please critique me" tag, I'd personally prefer to stick to something like 'Crit' which can't easily be misinterpreted; 'OC' also means 'OpenCanvas' to a lot of us, for example. I do prefer PyTom's "this user is open to critique" profile suggestion, though.
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Re: The "Critique Please" initiative

#19 Post by Deji » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:10 pm

unknown5 wrote:what if in the "Skill Development" section, u have five threads (stickied or floating, dunno). if u want critiques, just post a brief description and a link to your project, work, art, samples, etc. into the appropriate thread.
That would be a hassle, imo.
Jake wrote:Personally, I agree strongly with PyTom's earlier concern on this subject; being open for critique should be the default, not something you have to specifically ask for. How about people mark their stuff if they don't want critique? Again, to me this comes down to the distinction between whether the LSF is a creative development community or not: if it is, then critique should be encouraged and expected, because it's an important part of creative development; if it isn't, then it's lost something, and I think it's a shame.
While I agree the idea is that a community like this should be critical by default, the recent discussions have highlighted that the critical spirit is getting lost.
Ideally, we shouldn't need a "Please Critique Me" tag at all, but since people by default are not asking for nor giving critique, and people willing to offer critique eventually just give up because "why bother..."...
Yeah, I think we're losing it.

Ideally, the "please critique me" tag would be used only to "train" or "teach" the community (or the newest members that weren't around when the community was more critique-friendly, if you like), to understand how critiquing somebody's piece works, to see how useful and finally how helpful for everybody a community that gives meaningful feedback can be. And then, when the community is used to this and ultimately demands for things to be critical all the time, we wouldn't need the tag anymore, since pretty much every thread would implicitly have it.

The idea is a temporary approach to get things back on track, or at least that's the spirit.




(sorry if I'm repeating myself, I tend to do that a lot and don't even realize it >> )
Last edited by Deji on Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The "Critique Please" initiative

#20 Post by unknown5 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:37 pm

ah, ima newb here so i didn't know how things were before.
(i just assumed this was the default setting, heh)
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Re: The "Critique Please" initiative

#21 Post by Starling » Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:10 am

There are times where critiques can hinder more than help someone, however. There's a point in development where having the critique will actually crush your game (especially if you're lower in self esteem).

So I'm kind of glad critiques are not default. Not that I don't want critiques, but having a "safe" environment can be important, (and putting 'No, Critique Please' in your thread can be frankly embarrassing). Thusly I completely agree with putting 'Critique Please' in the thread title, it would leave those who are not ready for critique on their product 'critfree' and those who want and need it, and it seems like quite a good fit in the Skill Development forum, I myself will want to post one with my art soon.
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Re: The "Critique Please" initiative

#22 Post by PyTom » Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:22 am

Critiques are, and always will be the default - when you post something, anyone can reply to it in any civil way that they want. I see the "Critique Please" initiative as a way of focusing attention on threads where critique is explicitly wanted. But that is by no means a way of banning critique on other threads.

I'm not a big fan of measures taken to artificially raise someone's self-esteem. I'd much rather people get good at what they do, and then gain self-esteem because of that, than people have high self-esteem without improvement.
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Re: The "Critique Please" initiative

#23 Post by lepapillonrouge » Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:32 am

I really hope no one takes it to the other extreme and bash a bunch of threads for their own pleasure.

But considering that really doesn't happen here, I'll be taking that advice to critique random threads. It's a little hard when...they don't have anything much to go off on except a dream and a plot summary. And maybe an image.
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Re: The "Critique Please" initiative

#24 Post by Ren » Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:29 am

lepapillonrouge wrote:I really hope no one takes it to the other extreme and bash a bunch of threads for their own pleasure.
I doubt it: unless there's a hidden group of trolls here, all the people who pushed for more critiques in these forums are already giving honest feedback without being fierce. Just look around.

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Re: The "Critique Please" initiative

#25 Post by Vatina » Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:13 am

I agree with Pytom.

As for bashing threads - that is not critique, and should not be mistaken for such.

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Re: The "Critique Please" initiative

#26 Post by DrakeNavarone » Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:52 am

Samu-kun wrote:Given the recent outpouring of support, I've decided to make the entirety of my current project, Homeward (ウチヘ) open for community criticism.
Samu-kun wrote:
fortaat wrote:1. Why are they Japanese? We saw it so many times it's boring. In the "introductory chapter" they go to a kendo club - it's a cliche. The same applies to the obligatory "Beach chapter".
2. Over the top emotional narrator.
3. The fourth line sounds so sleazy it's scary.
4. The first line in the game is "... ... ...". Using the... many... ellipsis... makes my book loving self cringe.
5. I skipped to the ending. They really don't have any real reason to commit suicide beside an easy getaway for the author. why don't they try to deal with it? hide it?


Anyway, kudos for making it open.
Actually, this shows why people should read posts fully before posting to avoid embarrassing themselves.

1. They're Japanese because the plot requires that they are and I'm more familiar with this setting than whatever other setting that you wish the story to be set in
2. Read below
3. I didn't mean it to sound that way and I don't think many other people will interpret it that way. Once again, I think you're misinterpreting the material.
4. That's not the first line in the story. It's the 3840th line - roughly one hour into the game. The ellipsis denote that some time has passed since what happened in the prior sentence. (which was cut off from the sample) I think it should be obvious to anyone who read the post that it's not the first line in the game, so I don't think you have enough of a understanding of the text to make judgement about it yet.
5. They have a lot of reasons if you actually read through it.

Counterpoint to this initiative,
from http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... =26&t=7517

Thicker skin and more patience is gonna be required for this idea to take off, not a confrontational and defensive reflex. It's easy to say you can do something in theory, but when put to practice, it plays out a lot differently.
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Re: The "Critique Please" initiative

#27 Post by Samu-kun » Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:34 pm

Simple question then: how would you have dealt with it? When somebody gives me advice (most of which is lacking deeper explanations as to why that person feels that way), half of which were caused by the fact the person did not do the homework and read through the topic, the only thing I can say is go back and finish reading whatever needs to critiqued. In any case, I want more walls of text in that thread. I didn't spend time off from developing if I didn't care about what people say.

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Re: The "Critique Please" initiative

#28 Post by LinWest » Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:52 pm

Samu-kun wrote:Simple question then: how would you have dealt with it? When somebody gives me advice (most of which is lacking deeper explanations as to why that person feels that way), half of which were caused by the fact the person did not do the homework and read through the topic, the only thing I can say is go back and finish reading whatever needs to critiqued. In any case, I want more walls of text in that thread. I didn't spend time off from developing if I didn't care about what people say.
I think you're correct, Samu, about the individual not putting a lot of effort into their critique. They don't seem to be aware you actually lived in Japan, or understand that visual script writing is different then novel writing. In all his critique didn't not really synthesize anything that he read, he more or less briefly skimmed and made personal comments on things he didn't like.

When I'm looking for critiques, I generally give it to two people. A friend who will tear it apart structurally, grammatically, and plotwise. Then I give it to a friend who is not a writer and ask for their feedback on what they think of the story/overall plot. So basically an editor, and reader point of view. This certain individual I'd class as a reader who isn't your story's target audience. So he probably can't help you much.

However, the point here, I hope, is creation not rejection. Your counter points I found valid, but maybe I'd hold back on "he's embarrassing himself." It's best to neutrally, but firmly, tell the person to take a deeper look. I think you should just told fortaat what you said to Drake: If he haven't even really read what you wrote, he can't really help you fix it. Also that you expect more backings and dialogue for something you have put a lot of thought and work into. And leave it at that.

I can't bring myself to read the summaries, because I don't want to spoil the endings for when you do finally finish and I get to play! I've seen all the work you do on your blog, and read your NHK term paper. I greatly enjoyed it, and it scratched a lot of itching perturbments I had about moe. So yeah.... Imma savin myself for you! *sparkles*
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Re: The "Critique Please" initiative

#29 Post by Ren » Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:31 pm

Still, stuff like "Why are they all Japanese?" is a valid question, and I wouldn't dismiss it like he did. I don't think Samu-kun is Japanese nor that he lived there more than a few months so I don't understand how he could be more familiar with their culture than any other one the commenter could have suggested.
Their points may have been worded in a less articulated way than he would have desired, but I don't see how dismissing everything like that should be excused.

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Re: The "Critique Please" initiative

#30 Post by DrakeNavarone » Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:35 pm

Myself, I'd handle it in silence and consideration. I'm not much of a poster and won't ever will be, even in my own completed game threads. Just meditate on how he sees your story, not how frustrated you are that he doesn't see it the way you do. For example, while you are in your rights for being upset he didn't finish reading all your posts, instead of calling him out on being lazy and embarrassing himself, maybe you should consider some of the reasons he didn't even finish? Example: The writing wasn't as attention grabbing as you would've hoped and now here's evidence of it... or just a basic tl;dr sample you posted (This is the internet, attention wanes fast).

Also, in-depth feedback is great, but just reactive feeling on a story is more honest. Writing is art, not science... it should be more emotive than rational. Sure, if you want to design a story rather than weave one, I can see why digging up nitpicky details would be important. But simple emotive responses might just be more important towards developing the work as a whole, rather than scene A here or line X there. ( Granted, this is only me injecting my opinion here... you're welcome to ignore it since you are in fact asking for critique. ) Just don't dismiss the un-elaborated points and questions as unimportant because they don't stretch pages in length.

[ As for the WIP Game in question, Homeward, I can't say much. I barely read the thread, I can't say I'm interested, and I won't be critiquing it myself. I actually disapprove of this initiative here. I say those who are just seeking encouragement should admit it, not disguising it as a request for critique. On the other side of the coin, there are people who honestly ask for critique but are way too pliable and end up making a game to pander to their fans' wants instead of their own. The Assertive Critique Requester is a rare breed. I picked you, Samu, because you were a great and ready counter example. And the fact I only bother reading up on names I actually recognize anymore. ]
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