Lemma Soft Forums

(This is more concerned with the Ren'Py wiki, than the code itself.)

I'm considering establishing some sort of "Featured Ren'Py Games" process. To some extent, there's already an ad-hoc process by which games are added to the rotation on the front page of the website, but frankly, it's not a good one. It lacks comprehensiveness, and it's biased towards older games (largely because I've had less free time, and no longer play through every Ren'Py game made). So I'm thinking of instituting a slightly more formal featured games process. This will have three benefits:

- Games that I'm personally biased against (like many otome games, and pretty much all boys love games) may have a shot at being featured.

- The best games that the community has made will be featured. This will make it easy for people to find games likely to appeal to them, and make them more likely to join the community here. I've had people tell me that they've played a few Ren'Py games picked out at random, and didn't like any of them. And I think part of that is because a random pick of 3 games out of our 150 might not yield one of the better games. By stacking the deck, we're more likely to help people find the best games.

- A list of criteria for featured games might also form a sort of "best practices" for game-makers.

So, what could the criteria be? In no particular order, but numbered to make thing easier to refer to:

1) The game should tell a complete story, rather than just a fragment. It should go beyond just introducing characters to each other, and actually introduce some conflict and then resolve it.

2) The game should have high-quality and original writing, art, music, and design. This is a very subjective criteria, but at the same time I think there are at least some games where people go "wow, that was a good game". These should be the featured games.

3) The game should have some existence independent of these forums. This means a web page of some sort, and hosting that isn't these forums, renai.us, or rapidshare, megaupload, etc. Ideally, the game will have some notability outside of our community.

4) The game should make reasonable use of Ren'Py. At the very least, this means things like customizing the menus and in-game interface. Beyond that, the more a game uses Ren'Py to help its presentation, the more likely it should be featured.

5) The game should be legal and tasteful. Sorry Mugenjohncel, but TFQ is out, due to the latter.

6) The games should be available and work well on all major platforms Ren'Py supports.

My sense is there's some sort of balance here. For example, a game that has phenomenal art and story might become featured even if it only uses the basics of Ren'Py. The idea is to identify the 10-20 Ren'Py games people like best, and think are a good introduction to the community. Those would then go into the front page rotation. There would probably also be a list of all featured games that would be prominently linked from renpy.org, to help people new to Ren'Py and VNs in general, and to help grow the community.

My gut feeling is that I'd like this process to proceed in two steps. The first is identifying which older games (pre-process) should become/remain featured. This could be as simple as everyone posting a list of games that they think should be featured, and posting them here. If people want to avoid offending someone, they can post the list as a guest. Forum administrators like myself are able to see who posted from the IP of a guest post.

Once we have a basic list, we can evaluate new games as they are created. When people play a game and like it, they should mention that they think the game should be featured. I'm also thinking calling out some of the near-misses might be appropriate, like mentioning that the game would have been featured had it not been hosted on rapidshare. There would probably be some sort of basic waiting period after the game was released before it could become featured, so that a zeitgeist about the game could form.

Basic ground rules should be that while it's acceptable to explain why you like a game, it's not okay to question a vote, or to vote against a game. Also realize that the target is to feature the top 10% or so of games, and so many good games will not make the cut, and that it's nothing personal if your game doesn't make it. In fact, I'd expect some games to not make it because they're good games, but not something you'd recommend to someone new to VNs.

I'd propose that for now, I take over the job of evaluating these recommendations, and deciding if a game has enough support to be featured. I would to some extent weigh things like the standing in the community of the recommender (someone who's been here for a while and has a good base for comparison will be trusted more than a raider from n-chan), selectivity (someone who recommends a few games will probably be more influential, in the long run, than someone who recommends every new game), and compliance (If someone recommends something that doesn't comply with these standards, and doesn't have great reasoning, then I'll somewhat discount their recommendations).

This differs from the Lemmys in two important ways:

a. It's less formal.
b. It's an acclaim-based process, rather than a voting-based one. I think a problem with the Lemmys was that it asked you to rank which of three games was best. With this process, you just have to indicate which games (that you've already played) you've liked. (I also think there were some management problems with the Lemmys, but that's not something we should go into this thread.)

With that, I'd like to open this up to comments. Everything is fair game, but let me just defend this by thinking that some sort of evaluation process for games is necessary, now that we have so many games that it's hard for someone new to the community to play a large fraction of them. I'm not 100% sure of my criteria above, but I'm hoping that they will define a sort of minimum set of best practices for good games, that will encourage us to open the community up a little and to put our best feet forward.

Thanks for reading, and I hope people will consider participating.

I don't think it'll be hard to find a bunch of good games at all. I mean, it's pretty much obvious.

Tying Threads
Songs of Araiah
Winter Shard
Katawa Shoujo Act 1

HEY!
Why isn't my game on your list?...
http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... 986#p61986

Oh and... could you please update the one hosted on
http://www.renai.us/game/thefingquestion.shtml
The one hosted in there is the old one with a few bugs in some places...

"POOF" (Disappears)

Edit:
Pytom, Can The Fuc**ng Question be a feature game now? I mean, we got tons on imagemaps and stuff and...

Edit 2:

I'd expect some games to not make it because they're good games, but not something you'd recommend to someone new to VNs.

Ups!... Failed to see that one... nevermind...

I'll just... crawl on some dark corner of the house and sulk for a bit...

5) The game should be legal and tasteful. Sorry Mugenjohncel, but TFQ is out, due to the latter.

Ya see? And I didn't even have to bribe PyTom for him to make up that requirement! Clearly this is another sign that you should change your evil ways and use your abilities for good.

mugenjohncel wrote:HEY!
Why isn't my game on your list?...
http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... 986#p61986

Because of this:

5) The game should be legal and tasteful. Sorry Mugenjohncel, but TFQ is out, due to the latter.

Anyway, I'll be back later with my list. I already feel that it will be very similar to Samu's.

To clarify, I'm not asking people to make up lists now. I'd rather we take a little time to get peoples' ideas on this whole endeavor, before we actually name games.

Oh. Then save my list for when we are taking recommendations. =w=

I got a feeling that the final selection's going to be pretty arbitrary though. For example, Winter Shard is on my list because it's the best example of a branching plot structure done right, but its art is still severely lacking. Songs of Araiah, on the other hand, is on the list because of its high production values, despite some story flaws. And Katawa Shoujo's the longest, best drawn visual ever made so far, but it still doesn't have a full story yet.

Well, no game is perfect. For every reason I can think of that a game should be on the list, I can also think of a counter reason why it shouldn't be either. I think it's ultimately going to have to come down to some arbitrary choice that this game should be on the list, while that game shouldn't be, just because that's the way it is and there's nothing else more to it.

It's like the Lemmys with (hopefully) less drama. I like. However:

PyTom wrote:1) The game should tell a complete story, rather than just a fragment. It should go beyond just introducing characters to each other, and actually introduce some conflict and then resolve it.

This sounds like it could potentially exclude some interesting non-stories in VN form. Demos and unfinished works should of course be disqualified.

PyTom wrote:2) The game should have high-quality and original writing, art, music, and design. This is a very subjective criteria, but at the same time I think there are at least some games where people go "wow, that was a good game". These should be the featured games.

I don't think it's a good idea to focus too much on well-rounded games, or worse, a checklist of requirements. A masterpiece isn't a game that's perfect in all areas, but one that stands out so much in one area that all of its other flaws are forgiven.

PyTom wrote:3) The game should have some existence independent of these forums. This means a web page of some sort, and hosting that isn't these forums, renai.us, or rapidshare, megaupload, etc. Ideally, the game will have some notability outside of our community.

I'm not sure why this would matter. It's not like we have such an abundance of excellent games that we need to use arbitrary rules to cull the herd.

PyTom wrote:4) The game should make reasonable use of Ren'Py. At the very least, this means things like customizing the menus and in-game interface. Beyond that, the more a game uses Ren'Py to help its presentation, the more likely it should be featured.

If the goal is to promote Ren'Py, yes. If the goal is to promote worthy visual novels, no.

PyTom wrote:I'm considering establishing some sort of "Featured Ren'Py Games" process. To some extent, there's already an ad-hoc process by which games are added to the rotation on the front page of the website, but frankly, it's not a good one. It lacks comprehensiveness, and it's biased towards older games (largely because I've had less free time, and no longer play through every Ren'Py game made). So I'm thinking of instituting a slightly more formal featured games process.

I'll try a completely different angle: Perhaps I sensed this the wrong way (if so, ignore the post, I'm human, too), but anyway, here it goes... I get the feeling that since you don't really have the time to consider/update the renpy page with this "promotional" content, this suggested process and criteria are an attempt to help remove you or someone specific from the task of actually considering the games and deciding which one to feature and then actually take the screenshots, write the summary and upload the page, and consistently check for new games and assess those. Your suggestion attempts to make the process reliant on "general" rules, with as little bias as possible (by averages etc), and I think this is indeed mainly so that you don't need to rely on one particular person.

And that's true, you don't really need to rely on a person, but I think you do need to rely on a role. And that role is an editor.

If you just imagine the ideal scenario, you would have a person who is dedicated to maintaining the renpy.org page, that process and criteria you outlined would merely be documentation, in other words the editor would "live" the principles and decide intuitively which games to choose, the criteria specified would be just a basis for a human decision. In your suggestion, I think the actual process is intended to be the primary element, kind of semi-automated, with someone "just keeping an eye" on the steps while people's inputs (votes, suggestions) are generalized by averages etc.

So I kind of feel that you'd like to limit the human factor as much as possible - but from the experience with RAA, I think it simply can't be done - if there is no editor who feels responsible, it just doesn't work. It's also why instinctively, Lemmys also come to mind, simply because there was also a lack of leadership and responsibility, which caused it to create more fuss than actual results based on people's varying fundamental principles of rating.

So in general, I would have a radical suggestion and say that in fact you shouldn't even start this discussion about criteria unless there is a role defined (the editor), and ideally, a person found, since without someone to bring it to life, from experience, the philosophical discussion and establishing criteria is almost a wasteful thing to do.

Like in the Lemmys, I'd like to politely abstain.

Feel free to pick the Narutos and Full Metal Alchemists, while I find the Kemonozumes and Windy Tales (because I try to give everything an unbiased chance).

If it's a purely technical qualification however, that's pretty easy. Katawa Shoujo Act 1 and nothing else.

The basic intent behind this idea is good. I started to generate interes in Ren'py by trying out those games that came up on the main page, then I started to play everything else (whose description attracted my attention).

I think that games having their own page is always a good idea (I plan on having one for my upcoming game) but then you'd be rating peoples' ability to market the game/Ren'py more than their use of the technology. I don't think this should be a criteria to exclude games from the fold. The same goes for hosting. While it is obvious preferable for games to have their own download page and server, this strikes me as not relavant to the actual quality of the game and their creative use of the Ren'Py Visual Novel Engine.

I do think that having the conflict/resolution in there is a powerful move. That will be rewarding for people who are looking for games, as opposed to demos. This will also bring this vital story element into focus for games creators.

I don't know about excluding games based on 'taste' like TFQ. Personnaly I'm not a fan of its humor but am impressed by the way he's used Ren'py which is orignal in many ways. I am inspired by a few features in that games that will make their way into my own (not the humor). In order to balance this out, a warning about the content would be a good idea so people know what to expect. I say this in part because I would hate for people to hold back in their creativity because they would be aiming for a slot on the front page. This could have a detrimental effect on the pushin of bounderies in style and content. By keeping the criteria technical (use of ren'py) and story-focused (conflict-resolution) and only that, you are bound to achieve what you strive for will keeping the creativity flowing to a max.

I also think another criteria should be put forth, and that it to have games be free of spelling errors. These types of mistakes make any games drop in perceived quality and are easy to solve (ask in the forum for help). And this will be a good motivation to revise the text (fix the spelling errors and your game will be featured).

mikey wrote:And that's true, you don't really need to rely on a person, but I think you do need to rely on a role. And that role is an editor.

Actually, I don't think this is the case. DaFool has been editing the games list forever, and he's really been diligent. So we already have screenshots for all of the games, and for the past (6 months? year?) we've had large screenshots we scale down.

The big thing is that it's hard to pick which games are featured. Right now, it's up to me to do that, and I'm a flawed and biased human being. The whole idea of this is that by spreading the decision over multiple people, we can try to eliminate at least some of that bias, and consider games that I haven't even played.

To some extent, I want the process to be as follows: There are multiple general rules, as I'd like games to have at least a minimum amount of professionalism and longevity to them. Beyond that, I just want people to identify the games that made them go "wow! that was really good". And the featured games will be those who made multiple people go "Wow!".

Wintermoon wrote:This sounds like it could potentially exclude some interesting non-stories in VN form. Demos and unfinished works should of course be disqualified.

Perhaps. My real intent here was to try to bias the process agains the "Boy meets girl" stories, which are just the introduction to larger games.

I don't think it's a good idea to focus too much on well-rounded games, or worse, a checklist of requirements. A masterpiece isn't a game that's perfect in all areas, but one that stands out so much in one area that all of its other flaws are forgiven.

At the same time, we want to make a good first impression for Ren'Py and for the community. So I'd like games where the production values are high enough across the board that we're not going to turn off a new player when this is his first game.

PyTom wrote:3) The game should have some existence independent of these forums. This means a web page of some sort, and hosting that isn't these forums, renai.us, or rapidshare, megaupload, etc. Ideally, the game will have some notability outside of our community.

I'm not sure why this would matter. It's not like we have such an abundance of excellent games that we need to use arbitrary rules to cull the herd.

The idea here is that I'd like featured games to exemplify best practices for Ren'Py games. And I think having some sort of existence separate from the forums should be part of those best practices, as it's going to be the way to grow the community. (And rapidshare is right out, as it means entire countries won't be able to download the game.)

If the goal is to promote Ren'Py, yes. If the goal is to promote worthy visual novels, no.

I'd like this to be the Featured Ren'Py Games process. So the goal is something like "promote a positive view of the community and the engine by making it easy to access the best works made with it."

If you want to establish an elaborate process like this, you should also consider (and discuss) what to do with it, and it has to be more than the present. If all this discussion only is about which games get a randomly called single-line blurb on the renpy.org frontpage, the present method is fine, and anything more is not even worth the discssion, much less actually doing it.

delta wrote:If you want to establish an elaborate process like this, you should also consider (and discuss) what to do with it, and it has to be more than the present. If all this discussion only is about which games get a randomly called single-line blurb on the renpy.org frontpage, the present method is fine, and anything more is not even worth the discssion, much less actually doing it.

Well, I did mention about how I would like to treat games going forward, once the current games have been dealt with. I'd also like to have a page containing all the summaries of the featured games, in addition to those summaries being randomly featured on the front page.

It's ok to show off the best games, but there is a criteria that would make players even more interested and would turn them into creator :

- Code source available to read with didactic comments to prove that Ren'py is "easy to use" and can do more elaborate stuff (a practical use of the engine functions) than the demo.