Robinwood Studios is recruiting

[LateWhiteRabbit]

A non-commercial 20 hour VN for your first project isn't "modest". It's "highly ambitious" at best and "doomed to fail" at worst.

A non-commercial 20 hour VN means

- at least 300,000 words of text, or 200,000 words and quite a bit of gameplay to somehow fill the game time
- enough art to match the amount of text; in a project of that length, the players will also expect lots of event CGs
- getting all that for free from people who, if their skills are good enough, could spend the same time earning a few thousand bucks

After reading this I actually forwarded what you said to the Director on our current project. He pointed out to me that when he said a 20 hour VN, he meant that to include replay value as well, obtaining every ending (6 in total) would add up to about 20 hours. Apparently one play through is only going to amount to 4-5 hours. So apparently, I misunderstood his meaning when he said a 20 hour VN.

Thanks for pointing this out to me before I misinformed any others.
-Joel

Even if that includes replay value, 4-5 hours per play thru, or per path it is still wildly ambitious. It is still a 20 hour VN project for your team, meaning you have to produce 20 hours worth of content, even if a single player may only see 4-5 hours of it. A lot of dedicated doujin game studios do well to put out 2-3 hours worth of content, especially for free.

What exactly has your Director directed before? Because at the moment, and I say this with the best of intentions and to help, it sounds like he is directing the project towards failure. Ambition and feature-creep is the number one thing that kills projects and games. I have been involved with numerous projects, both games and Hollywood films, and the only ones to succeed and not fail were those that limited their scope and cut features and content like crazy to keep the ship afloat. The one project I worked on where we COULD be insanely ambitious was for a major film where we sunk $60,000 dollars a WEEK into production for months on end. We helped make an amazing film, but our studio ran out of money after it was over.

My most successful game projects have always been when we repeatedly said to ourselves during planning that it must be "shorter and simpler". My team thought I was insane for continuously making the game shorter and cutting stuff out during planning. Will still only JUST barely got the thing made and done even as simple and short as it was. Ask people like Papillon and Jack Norton if they could produce a 20-hour worth of content game - and they PAY everybody involved.

Just giving you something to think about. But as a new studio you'd be a lot better off releasing a small and short game as a first project. To see how hard it is for even a small game, and also to establish your procedures and workflow pipeline within the studio.

[AxemRed]

Wow...20 hours is a really big project/VN. I mean, KS is 30-40 hours long and that took 5 years to complete (2 year with perfect team work according to their blog post).

Clearing every ending took me only 20-25 hours, and I'm not a native speaker nor am I a particularly fast reader.

After reading this I actually forwarded what you said to the Director on our current project. He pointed out to me that when he said a 20 hour VN, he meant that to include replay value as well, obtaining every ending (6 in total) would add up to about 20 hours. Apparently one play through is only going to amount to 4-5 hours. So apparently, I misunderstood his meaning when he said a 20 hour VN.

I think you're the only one that misunderstood. A 20 hour (total) VN is extremely long for a non-commercial project.

[applegirl]

Haha, I was just guessing for KS based on vndb. I actually think my playthrough took much shorter time too, but figured "eh...probably varies person to person based on speed of reading and how much time they spend thinking about choices/the story." Regardless, that visual novel took forever to make and kind of showed why most VNs here are much shorter.

Also, these are really words of wisdom from experienced game creators and creative members. Thanks for pointing that out LateWhiteRabbit, I didn't realize the financial aspect of the creative industry. I'm just a reader and member of this forum, but consistently I've read about projects that fell apart due to inability to pay the artists. Artists live off their work, so it isn't easy finding someone to do a project of this scope for free. Especially in a quick and high quality manner. Writers are very crucial, but a visual novel relies just as heavily on the artists to convey the story.

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I really can't tell you how many developer's blogs I've read where they couldn't rely on an artist to provide all the work for free. A lot of visual novel makers have found it necessary to pay artists to get high quality work consistently. I admittedly am focused on getting high quality art because it is an unfortunate bias of many readers to pass on visual novels if the art is...lacking in quality. I wish that wasn't the case, but I've done it before and I'll probably do it again in the future.

EDIT: What the...KS play length changed on vndb! Ahh, okay, 10-30 hours . Regardless, still long.

[Joel Dawson]

Well the points made here are completely valid in their own merit. I'm sure some of the users that posted on here know much more about what it takes to make a VN, especially for the first time. We realize we're aiming ambitiously, but right now we have a solid team put together. Three of the people on our team know each other in real life and are devoting a lot of time and energy into it. We were simply looking for extra assistance with the project.

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I really can't tell you how many developer's blogs I've read where they couldn't rely on an artist to provide all the work for free. A lot of visual novel makers have found it necessary to pay artists to get high quality work consistently.

Indeed. Lucky for us our artists are decided more to their passion of drawing than money.

But I guess I've run this issue into the ground now; so we won't be receiving any additional help here besides opinions. Thanks for your input and time everyone.

[LateWhiteRabbit]

Lucky for us our artists are decided more to their passion of drawing than money.

It always STARTS that way. The big question is whether or not that passion lasts when you are in the second year of production, the fun stuff is all over and the boring/hard work is all that is left. Usually free artists bail on you at some point - most just disappear when it has become a chore or unpleasant for them. They have no financial incentive or contract to make them stay through the rough patches, and the longer a game is, the more rough patches it will have.

I know it is likely your eyes are gleaming with enthusiasm and ideals and you'll ignore most of my, frankly, depressing warnings, but I hope you'll be cognizant of the pitfalls and traps on the path to making a game this ambitious. I've worked with teams as large as ten, all in person, and all with experience, AND with financial backing, and failed to produce anything of the scope you all are planning for.

But good luck. I guess experience is the best teacher.

[Taleweaver]

But I guess I've run this issue into the ground now; so we won't be receiving any additional help here besides opinions. Thanks for your input and time everyone.

I beg to differ. You will be receiving any help you need in this very place, and yes, for your large, ambitious project as well. What I am recommending to you is releasing another title first - something shorter, more concise that you can feasibly finish within one or two months. It's not long until NaNoRenO now; maybe you'd like to take part in that unofficial little contest and create, from scratch, a whole visual novel in exactly one month.

Why you should do this
1. You earn credit as people who can complete projects. Starting something is easy. Finishing is not.

2. You'll find out how well your structures work if you're ever short on time. It's invaluable to know this as, sooner or later, you WILL be short on time during the production of something big.

3. You'll have the satisfaction of successfully completing a VN, which give everybody on your team a nice motivational push for the BIG things up ahead.

4. NaNoRenO is fun. Plain and simple fun.

5. If you decide to do it, I'll be your proofreader. Not just for NaNoRenO. For your big project too.


Really, guys, I WANT you to succeed. The world needs more VN studios.

[Anna]

Taleweaver is handing out free cookies, get them while they're still fresh !

Seriously though, I agree - finish something small first so you at least know what to expect before starting on a bigger project and so people have a little more faith in you. Join NaNoReNo, it's perfect for this: http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... =4&t=13992

There are so many people who go like 'I have this idea and it's amazing!' and then fail to deliver what they promised, that people think twice before joining someone who only has an idea yet wants them to dedicate themselves to it for a long time.