4 White Guys Productions: Looking for team members!

For recruitment of team members to help create visual novels and story-based games, and for people who want to offer their services to create the same.
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Bradok
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4 White Guys Productions: Looking for team members!

#1 Post by Bradok » Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:43 pm

Yo! Hey guys my name is John, and yes that is my real name, and I am one of the founders of 4White Guys Productions. We started this group a few months ago when we decided to make a Visual Novel, however due to the hassles of daily life my comrades have abandoned me and I am looking to find others that would like to join. I am currently working on Resurrection X, a supernatural high-school thriller, and since my artist is AWOL anyone with a decent proficiency at drawing Anime/Manga style characters would be greatly appreciated. Now, that being said here is what I am offering.

First and foremost I would like a sample of your artwork. This can be anything from a simple sketch you have done to something from a former project just so I can get a feel for your art style and asses your talent. This position will require you draw multiple characters with varying expressions and outfits, and while I know this is taxing work I believe that what I offer is fair.

For an artistic contributor for Resurrection X, I will be offering a payment of $50 once the game has been completed as well as a share of all the profit it brings in. If only one artist works actively on the project he/she will receive a 40% share of the game's grossed income. I will take a 50% share since I will be writing the game as well as paying out of pocket for advertising.

I hope to here back from some of you.

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Re: 4 White Guys Productions: Looking for team members!

#2 Post by Asceai » Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:00 pm

now that the other three white guys have left shouldn't you think about renaming your group?

i know you probably have a domain and a really nice logo and all that but still

EDIT: You may also find that $50 is slightly below the standard commission rate for an entire VN worth of art, but if you can convince someone your work will sell...

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Re: 4 White Guys Productions: Looking for team members!

#3 Post by Green Glasses Girl » Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:01 pm

To add on what Asceai said: to put into perspective, it's common for artists to charge anywhere from $15-40 USD for a single sprite. And that doesn't (generally) include extra clothing or poses. So only $50 for a full commercial VN is reaaaaally steep.
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Re: 4 White Guys Productions: Looking for team members!

#4 Post by Rozume » Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:06 pm

No, what you don't offer is fair. While you are offering a royalty, please understand that no one would want to work for something for so low.

I do offer royalties to the people I commission for my commercial projects in addition to some sort of rate. For example, a commissioned 10 tracks from a composer for USD$140 + 10% royalty. Most people here don't want to be paid that way and would rather take a flat rate, which is fine too.

If you want to hire an artist, please pay them decently.

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Re: 4 White Guys Productions: Looking for team members!

#5 Post by seitensei » Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:24 pm

40% isn't as much a royalty as it is a stake. As far as I can tell, with that much, you're looking to bring someone on as an equal.

50USD is what some of the more skilled artists I know charge as a minimum rate for hobbyist/free projects. That's 50USD per work hour.

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Re: 4 White Guys Productions: Looking for team members!

#6 Post by Bradok » Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:57 pm

I am not looking for a commissioned artist so to speak first off. I am looking for someone to join my creative projects team indefinitely to work on the current, and future projects. I am planning on selling the game for $15.99 which I know is fairly low among visual novels, yet I want our debut project to be downloaded on a larger scale so I decided to go with a lower price. That's nearly $8 a download so the work will be well over paid for after the first download spike hits, and that's before I release it on Amazon and mobile app stores.

Backgrounds will not be needed, just sprites. The main cast will consist of 5 or six 6 people, depending on if I add another route, and these are the ones that will need the majority of the work done. I am trying to keep side characters to a minimum and they will all only require the standard expression set and one outfit.

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Re: 4 White Guys Productions: Looking for team members!

#7 Post by Omniknight » Mon Apr 07, 2014 9:54 pm

Bradok wrote:I am not looking for a commissioned artist so to speak first off. I am looking for someone to join my creative projects team indefinitely to work on the current, and future projects. I am planning on selling the game for $15.99 which I know is fairly low among visual novels, yet I want our debut project to be downloaded on a larger scale so I decided to go with a lower price. That's nearly $8 a download so the work will be well over paid for after the first download spike hits, and that's before I release it on Amazon and mobile app stores.

Backgrounds will not be needed, just sprites. The main cast will consist of 5 or six 6 people, depending on if I add another route, and these are the ones that will need the majority of the work done. I am trying to keep side characters to a minimum and they will all only require the standard expression set and one outfit.
I quite honestly have no idea how much time you invested in developing your VN, but if you do not have an award-winning scenario, there is a 0.00000000000001% chance people buy a $16 VN from an unknown developer, let alone crowdfunding...... just a reality check :D

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Re: 4 White Guys Productions: Looking for team members!

#8 Post by LateWhiteRabbit » Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:16 pm

Bradok wrote:I am not looking for a commissioned artist so to speak first off. I am looking for someone to join my creative projects team indefinitely to work on the current, and future projects. I am planning on selling the game for $15.99 which I know is fairly low among visual novels, yet I want our debut project to be downloaded on a larger scale so I decided to go with a lower price. That's nearly $8 a download so the work will be well over paid for after the first download spike hits, and that's before I release it on Amazon and mobile app stores.
Firstly, I'll just quote myself from this thread (which you should read):
1) Profit Sharing, Interest Payments, or Royalties

This is typically an excuse to get art for free on the front end, so you can get good art you'd normally have to pay for without reaching for your wallet. It is also BAD. At best it is naive, at worst it is dishonest. Most indie projects, be they VNs or something else don't make a lot of profit. Fifty percent of nothing is nothing. And too many times I see recruiters offering this system and not even having contracts drawn up. Are the artists supposed to trust your altruism on handling the accounting and cutting the checks?

That brings up the second problem. Logistics. How long are you going to keep up with the profits and royalties from your game? How often do you do the accounting, calculate the profits and send out a check? Every six months? Every year? Did you answer 'forever'? Because for as long as you bring in ANY money in connection with that game or art, you will have to do the math and cut the artist a check. If that all sounds like a pain in the ass for both you and the artist, then congratulations, you've seen why this is a crappy practice.

Third, no professional artist will EVER except this kind of arrangement. It is typically used to lure in young and inexperienced artists who are suckers and think this is the way business is done. It is not. Artist's get paid by the piece of art, on completion of the art. Occasionally depending on the nature of the art, an artist might expect a certain royalty amount on every title or object sold. For example, a graphic artist designing a poster for a campaign with national exposure would expect $4000 dollars on delivery of the finished product and 10% of the price of each poster sold. In the game industry it is more common just to be paid a flat amount for the art done with nothing more expected, however.
Secondly, the disappointing truth is that a lot of indie games sell less than 100 copies. And not just games that suck - some that are very well done. Betting that your first game out of the gate with no built up audience will sell a lot of copies is naively hopeful, which is FINE - except when you are talking of profit sharing.

Lastly, I find it extremely telling you seemingly can't afford to pay your artist a mere $50 until AFTER the game is released. I assume that money will come out of the first few game sales? If you can't afford to sink $50 into your game upfront it doesn't bode well for development and the advertising you spoke of.

Just my two cents and a quarter of insight into how most artists will be looking at your post.

EDIT:
Asceai wrote:now that the other three white guys have left shouldn't you think about renaming your group?
And yeah, the name is a little weird. What if the artistic collaborator you are seeking isn't white?

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Re: 4 White Guys Productions: Looking for team members!

#9 Post by Bradok » Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:37 pm

I like the name and who cares if they are white or not, being hung up and race is ignorant.

Second, I was recommended this site by another indie developer after he demoed my game. He set the price and linked me to a sight where other indie visual novels were being sold, most ranging upwards of $40 and have sold several copies. He said all the game lacked was decent character artwork and suggested I either use an editor and character templates or try to get a cheap freelancer.

Third, even after writing up and contract and authorizing it the last guy I paid $200 for character sprites for went AWOL on me and I refuse to pay anyone up front without some form of the requested material already turned in.

Fourth, I do not plan on releasing my Visual Novel and release it on a few websites then letting it sit and gather dust. I already have advertising lined up on Newgrounds.com and ChoiceofGames. As well as the MMORPG Phoenix: Sundered Earth.

Edit: I have already sunk $200 into the development of this game, $400 if you count what I am still trying to recover from the last artist I hired. The RPG system was hard to incorporate within a branching plot, and so far the shortest route is about 30 hours long if you do not do any of the side stuff, while the longest is nearly 60. I actually had to hire a coder to come in and fix a few errors with the battle system but now it seems to be working alright. After that I has issues with advancing in one of the routes, but it was a simple indentation error and luckily I found it before rehiring the coder lol. However so far everything looks really good and runs smooth. I am actually really happy with how everything ended up turning out and after nearly a year of working on it I am almost done! I knew replacing the artwork for the sprites would end up costing me an arm and a leg so I waited until the end before actually acquiring new art since it is as simple as replacing one image file with another.

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Re: 4 White Guys Productions: Looking for team members!

#10 Post by Green Glasses Girl » Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:41 am

Bradok wrote:Third, even after writing up and contract and authorizing it the last guy I paid $200 for character sprites for went AWOL on me and I refuse to pay anyone up front without some form of the requested material already turned in.
I am very, very sorry to hear that happened to you. That's terrible. However, us artists too must take precaution since the inverse can happen to us. I did a full colored commission for a client two years ago. The client NEVER paid me. No matter how many emails and messages I sent, the guy just took off and got free art out of it. It was a foolish thing for me to do.

Again, no one is trying to set you back. We're all just trying to give some advice that artists *do* need to be paid higher, and not wholly on royalties. I admire your confidence in goals and advertising, but the truth is no one ever knows how a game will turn out. Especially in a sea of hundreds of quality VNs being produced and trying to get their names out there; there is competition. Depending on royalties to pay the artist isn't a good idea in the end. There ARE artists on here who are willing to work for free, but the quality will vary, and I'm sure you will want the best quality for a commercial game.

Remember, not all of us artists will scam you like your last artist did. I understand you want to protect yourself, so maybe drawing up a contract might be the best way of going about it? Instead of royalties, maybe a trade or a "half payment up front, half payment later" condition. I'm not sure. But anytime I look at a job ad and see "you'll be paid in royalties", that makes me nervous. I can't imagine it.

EDIT:
Bradok wrote:I like the name and who cares if they are white or not, being hung up and race is ignorant.
Okay, just putting it out there. I'm not white. I'm not a guy. Say that I want to work for your company, but then what do I put on my resume later? 4 White Guys. A tad awkward. Maybe something a little more universal sounding might be in order. Because if you *do* get out there, there are going to be a lot of people who *will* bring up the name if any racial or ethnic implications are present in your VN, and they won't be ignorant about it. You probably don't want that. Also, if your team is gone, why keep the name? That's just my opinion.
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Re: 4 White Guys Productions: Looking for team members!

#11 Post by Taleweaver » Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:43 am

Your introductory posting is still lacking a bit in detail. Please take a look at our requirements for recruitment and add the missing information, especially on the scope of the work to be done.
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Re: 4 White Guys Productions: Looking for team members!

#12 Post by SundownKid » Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:50 am

I like the name and who cares if they are white or not, being hung up and race is ignorant.
The same could be said for your refusal to change the name, after all why not call it "4 Guys Productions?" Or "4 Person Studios?" Considering the AAA game industry is infamous for its "dudebro" culture, it seems untactful on your part to even mention race/gender in your name when it can easily be some other nonsense word.
Third, even after writing up and contract and authorizing it the last guy I paid $200 for character sprites for went AWOL on me and I refuse to pay anyone up front without some form of the requested material already turned in.
The same thing could easily happen to an artist if the commissioner refuses to pay. One thing you could do if you are not confident about an artist is to agree to milestones, and make sure they complete the art on time. Or look at their past work and feedback.

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Re: 4 White Guys Productions: Looking for team members!

#13 Post by seitensei » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:06 am

I'm going to be honest- if I was paying someone 200USD total/flat to handle all the character sprites in my game, I wouldn't be too surprised if they vanished on me. Even at 200USD, you're looking at maybe around 6 hours of work or so on a decent rate- less even, seeing as 6 hours would round to 33.33USD an hour.

You get what you pay for, I guess.

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Re: 4 White Guys Productions: Looking for team members!

#14 Post by Asceai » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:32 am

seitensei wrote:I'm going to be honest- if I was paying someone 200USD total/flat to handle all the character sprites in my game, I wouldn't be too surprised if they vanished on me. Even at 200USD, you're looking at maybe around 6 hours of work or so on a decent rate- less even, seeing as 6 hours would round to 33.33USD an hour.

You get what you pay for, I guess.
Then they shouldn't have taken the money >_>

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Re: 4 White Guys Productions: Looking for team members!

#15 Post by Katta » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:37 am

seitensei wrote:I'm going to be honest- if I was paying someone 200USD total/flat to handle all the character sprites in my game, I wouldn't be too surprised if they vanished on me. Even at 200USD, you're looking at maybe around 6 hours of work or so on a decent rate- less even, seeing as 6 hours would round to 33.33USD an hour.

You get what you pay for, I guess.
Not everyone is a millionaire, you know. And noone deserves to be robbed of whatever sum. If you find the offer too low, just refuse it.

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