What is "Commercial"?

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vnovel
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Re: What is "Commercial"?

#16 Post by vnovel »

Aleema wrote:My business is you criticizing the community for having concerns.
Aleema, please set your records straight and stop flaming. In no way did we "criticize" the community or try to assert any kind of authority here. This is an informative statement with a free discussion. We are only trying to raise awareness to the long-standing issue of "commercial=bad" within the community. We feel that it's not productive, and we're trying to prepare visual novel developers who are serious about their work for the potential developments on the market. This has nothing to do with SoA in particular. Please calm your nerves.

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Re: What is "Commercial"?

#17 Post by PyTom »

To some extent, the title of this thread is a bit wrong, or at least I don't think it's the commercial vs noncommercial debate that's the one we're having here. What I think is going on here is that we're getting vnovel acting as a publisher/studio in a community where the norm is to have creator-owned projects, free and commercial.

One of the main functions of a publisher - and one that I think vnovel seems to be proposing to do - is to invest money into a project, money that the creators may not have available. The publisher also traditionally takes over things like marketing and distribution. In return for their investment, the publisher takes a large fraction of the revenue from the game, and gets some degree of ownership and a voice in decisions.

I think commercial releases have some place in our culture. I release my software using a license that is equally friendly to commercial and non-commercial games, and I know that there's a point where having another job slows down development. Free games can be phenomenal - but the less other commitments one has, the more time one can put into a project.

The more interesting comparison is the difference between the indie model - where the investment is made by the creator, and the reward is also taken by the creator - and the publishing model, which pushes more of the risk and rewards to a second party.

Vnovel seems to be trying to minimize this risk by licensing successful free games, rather than investing in the creation of new games. I can't blame them for this, as they are a business and have the goal of staying in business. That being said, I'd hope the share they take from creators is reduced commensurate to their reduced risk. (I personally would like to see them investing in a new Team BG game, as opposed to a remake - but that's just what I'd like to see.)
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Re: What is "Commercial"?

#18 Post by Taleweaver »

vnovel wrote:vNovel Interactive is a commercial publisher for independent and high quality visual novels. We only publish the best...
[wink]I almost overlooked that line... if you only publish the best, then how come you never tried to approach me? Looks like a critical oversight...[/wink]

To rephrase above question into something serious: What are your criteria for publishing a game? You say you want to work together with the "best"... in terms of what? Writing? Presentation? Replay value? Uniqueness and "breaking the mold"? Gameplay beyond story choices? What makes up "the best" for you?

(Maybe that also explains why you never approached me... ^_^)
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Re: What is "Commercial"?

#19 Post by Aleema »

PyTom wrote:One of the main functions of a publisher - and one that I think vnovel seems to be proposing to do - is to invest money into a project, money that the creators may not have available. The publisher also traditionally takes over things like marketing and distribution. In return for their investment, the publisher takes a large fraction of the revenue from the game, and gets some degree of ownership and a voice in decisions.
I see no problem with this. It's a time-old business plan and it's how many, many things are made, including other games, books, music, and movies.

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Re: What is "Commercial"?

#20 Post by Nebi »

I have no issues with the opening post. What I have noticed though is that this publisher seems to consistently draw negative feedback from certain elements in the community even though they have presented themselves with a fair degree of courtesy.

First and foremost, creators should understand that going commercial is a choice - they should neither be charmed or induced into doing so. Is it an important choice for everyone? No. Whether you work in a team or alone, the great thing about this application is that there are no expectations. What you do with the visual novel engine is completely up to you with no strings attached.

The website makes no claims that using the application will make your products a commercial success, nor does it look down on you for just wanting to share a story among friends. There are different goals among all of us, and it is important that we respect that and realize nobody can take anything from you because this is for everyone to use and adapt as they see fit.

The publisher has decided to take the genre a few steps in a certain direction and there are probably a lot of people who will follow in their footsteps. This forum and the community - constantly changing - will be here and from this vantage point we can watch what steps people take. In the future the publisher may develop into a different community altogether and it is within their right to dream big.

Different goals, different perspectives, tied together by the fact that we are discussing visual novels and their development. We as a whole will be stronger by getting along than butting heads.

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Re: What is "Commercial"?

#21 Post by vnovel »

Taleweaver wrote:What are your criteria for publishing a game? You say you want to work together with the "best"... in terms of what? Writing? Presentation? Replay value? Uniqueness and "breaking the mold"? Gameplay beyond story choices? What makes up "the best" for you?
That is a good question and a complicated one to answer...

Technically it's all the things you've mentioned and more.

We have a team of experienced personnel constantly scouting and reviewing indie titles as they are released.

We use the knowledge about the current state of affairs acquired, along with our heavy list of criteria to decide which visual novels are fit for publishing with vNovel. A main part of this criteria is the quality of the story, but things like the quality of the existing art, and traget audience, as well as popularity, and level of interactivity are also taken into account.

We are also very strict on whether the interactive elements of the story game are closely tied to the story itself. Traditional dating sims or RPG games (with stats, etc.) are not acceptable for publication with us. We welcome interactivity, but only as long as it's seamless and doesn't interfere with the story. This is also the reason why we drop most UI elements (unless they are required to tell the story). The core quality of the visual novel, the story comes first, and above all. We accept no compensation for it. This purist approach allows us to separate the best visual novels from the rest (even quality mix-/ date sim or RPG games).

Occasionally we will agree to convert a game into a visual novel (as in the case of The Flower Shop) if the story is outstanding.
Taleweaver wrote:Maybe that also explains why you never approached me... ^_^
We generally do not contact the authors of the works we scout. It is up to the author to contact us and submit their application for publishing review. Only you know when you're ready. ;)

In the worst case we'll give you confidential proper feedback on what you need to improve for your next production to successfully release it with us in a commercial context.

I hope this answers your question.

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Becky
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Re: What is "Commercial"?

#22 Post by clannadman »

I don't think there's any need to view this as though vnovel is trying to buy everybody out here. Even if, as a business, making a profit is a priority, I think that trying to promote interest in the visual novel industry isn't a bad goal to have in mind. Although the majority of visual novel players outside of Japan are most likely more experienced with researching and exploring the medium through the internet, there's still a market out there for those who are less aware but still open to the idea of playing such (excuse my terminology) simple games with basic games mechanics. Sadly, people read less and less these days and I like to think visual novels are a way of enjoying stories more easily through sight and sound, as well as imagination. If vnovel has the means to advance promotion of the industry then I see no reason for us to be so defensive.

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Re: What is "Commercial"?

#23 Post by papillon »

There's no hatred of commercial on this forum, not that I've ever seen, and I'm not exactly a newcomer. :)

There is a *preference* for free on some parts, but that's not the same.

However, there is a long tendency for many people on this forum to react badly to people making grandiose promises (which 90% of the time fall through) or posters who act in an "overly corporate" manner rather than presenting themselves as individuals and creators. "That's just standard business practices!" tends not to go down well.

I have no idea what spawned this thread - it's obviously in response to something but I didn't see whatever the original argument was.

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Re: What is "Commercial"?

#24 Post by Auro-Cyanide »

I think I agree with papillon. I haven't seen anything that has been overtly negative towards commercial projects purely because the are commercial, and definitely nothing that has suggested people think commercial=bad. A couple people disappointed because they will not be able to play because they lack the money or have no access to internet payments, but that is to be expected. Most of the time it's either 'Cool, you totally deserve to make it commercial, you've worked hard' or people make suggestions on what needs to be improved to reach a wider audience. I have both bought games and donated to projects and I am happy to do so for projects I am interested in. I don't think anyone resents that.

This being a game maker forum tends to put it into a different category from other forums that commercial projects may be on. Most of us here have some idea of what goes on with game making. We generally are not purely audience members, but actually direct peers, whether it is freeware or commercial games. I think that requires a different type of discourse? I think people trying to be overly business like as papillon said can come of as a bit cold, as if they are trying to create distance between the different groups. Money of course puts more pressure on things, but it's nice when you feel you are paying money to a group of individuals who care about what they are doing vs giving money to a business.

That being said, I wish you luck on your project. Visual novels are a great medium and it would be nice if they received more attention and support.

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Re: What is "Commercial"?

#25 Post by HikkiPanda »

Pappilon, it's a response from this thread http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... 16&t=11493

actually the amount of positive response in that thread is equal with the negative response .. so it's not like the whole community react negatively .. but yeah .. for every 1 negative post, you need about 5 positives response to undo the damage ^^; ..

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Re: What is "Commercial"?

#26 Post by lordcloudx »

Regarding the thread that spawned this, it looks like the naysayers were actually a different set of people compared to the active participants in this one.

Of course, when someone assumes to take the high ground and attempts to sorta "lecture" the community at large, it will result in raised eyebrows and knee-jerk reactions. (Don't try to justify that, it's a personal observation. Besides, we elicited similar responses in the past with baka-trio webzine.)

The original topic of "what is commercial," which has effectively become "commercial vs freeware," has been discussed to death in several threads before with no actual closure and I don't see why this thread will become the exception. (A testament to the independent thinkers of this forum, I guess)

In any case, perhaps to channel the thread into a positive direction, it would be a good idea for vnovels to fully disclose how their services work for potential clients here? -- Unless they have their own reservations about doing that here, of course. AFAIK, it's not prohibited within the rules of the forum and some people are too lazy to check out external sites.

I agree with Papillon. I think the initial assumption about the status quo of the community that commercial=bad in LSF circles and that you could somehow change this is what set off the negative chain reaction.
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Re: What is "Commercial"?

#27 Post by Aleema »

Yes, thank you. I'm not really eloquent when I speak. I was originally trying to say that there really isn't a "commercial=bad" mentality here, and if concerns are raised about a commercial project, it's not automatically the community's fault because they hate commercial things.

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Re: What is "Commercial"?

#28 Post by Watercolorheart »

I just can't get over the dripping levels of condescension in every post by vnovel ... the royal "we" level of diction and little barbs and needles dropped carelessly just seem to indicate a lack of respect for the very medium they're helping to popularize and profit off of.
We are also very strict on whether the interactive elements of the story game are closely tied to the story itself. Traditional dating sims or RPG games (with stats, etc.) are not acceptable for publication with us. We welcome interactivity, but only as long as it's seamless and doesn't interfere with the story.
I find it interesting that Vnovel is implying that roleplaying mechanics or dating simulation elements work against a story. Of course, since they are the ones fronting the money, I suppose they have the right to be choosy about which projects they would like to sponsor.

I just don't find it very admirable to announce their ... strategy ... quite like this. Frankly, I came into this thread bright-eyed, thinking it was a discussion of indie devs going commercial or what it means to be "commercial" and ... well, I did not get what I expected. I've been on these forums a long time, and I feel like the community has always had its ups and downs but we've come a long way.

I think that corporate publishers getting involved is a good thing!

... I don't think I care for this one, though.
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Re: What is "Commercial"?

#29 Post by jakemorrow »

Anyone else got any attacks to direct at a decent publisher who has shown nothing but courtesy and support? o.O ... JESUS!!! What is wrong with you guys!!!

Just because they are a business doesn't mean that they are a representative of the "evil" Microsoft and Apple corporations. Seriously, get a grip on yourselves.

I'm not saying this to defend vNovel, I have a problem with your attitude! This is a friendly community, and it should stay as such for individuals and businesses alike. They are no different to any other indie studio around here. We're all in this sh*t together. So stop ramming heads like apes, be civilized and pay respect some respect!

If a Japanese elder person would be reading this thread, he couldn't help but laugh out loud from unbearable sorrow at how disrespectful and egotistical these westerners are. vNovel's been around for a while and they have produced some amazing work, and supported a number of great indie studios. Respect it.

You don't have to like them, but respect their efforts regardless. What will this world turn into if we all start behaving like aggressive ego-jerks?!

They are giving back to the community, and that's a good sign. Therefore they are a decent member of our forums. Don't spit on them just because they are trying to share their insights.

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Re: What is "Commercial"?

#30 Post by Auro-Cyanide »

jakemorrow wrote:If a Japanese elder person would be reading this thread, he couldn't help but laugh out loud from unbearable sorrow at how disrespectful and egotistical these westerners are. vNovel's been around for a while and they have produced some amazing work, and supported a number of great indie studios. Respect it.
Excuse me?

As for everything else, everyone is free to state their opinion in regard to a thread that has been created, whether they are positive, negative or neutral. This forum is for everyone after all and certain topics like this one may be important to discuss. Certain people in this thread who have raised questions are also in the commercial business and would be fairly interested in different movements. It would be nice if you could respect the right of others to have an opinion on the matter. I'm not sure what you have invested in this issue, but insulting everyone in opposition is probably not going to end well. You are of course free to also state your opinion of the matter, but a 'nice' community doesn't mean we always have to agree on things. As a whole we are all intelligent individuals and discussion is apart of that.

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