The discrimination of OELVNs?

[Chorvaqueen]

Well apparently the same stigma to OEL manga/comics.
I'm not here to flame/fight ok?

I'm really curious about the VN world (tvtropes isn't helping for now for it lacks forum topics about OELVN or maybe I wasn't just looking well enough)


Or weebs are just a vocal minority?

I'm looking for insights, and I would really appreciate that.

[Fawn]

I think the main problem is that people try to make their games about Japan when they have no idea what Japan is really like. Not to mention the quality is generally low, even for commercial titles. Generally westerners just don't know how to do it right because they don't do enough research or try to put the utmost quality into the game.


But, it's probably no different then when the Japanese first began adapting western cartoons (anime originally was inspired by western animation). Western people probably thought "this stuff is lame! our stuff is the best because it's authentic." Now look at anime, it's a huge medium. I don't know if English VNs will be like that eventually, but it's something to think about. (Though, most western games nowadays have vn like qualities anyways, such as Mass Effect and Fallout that have possible love interests and different ways to finish the game. Pure vn is just kind of hard to swallow for most people)

[Mink]

Well, this was going to be a bit TL;DR, but I'll just say this:

Someone who's opinion is that something will for sure be bad, without playing it, because it's Not Japanese (yes, that must be capitalized) is not someone who's opinion I vary. Saying something is bad without giving any sort of reason as to why is also same to me.

Let's put it this way: I like super hero shows. Justice League, Justice League: Unlimited, Batman: TAS, Superman: TAS, even Young Justice on a certain level. Now, these shows are AMERICAN. Americans can only make good super hero shows. What's that? You think Tiger&Bunny is a good show about super heroes? Well, you see, it can't be, because that's an anime and it's Not American, so it can't POSSIBLY be good. If it's about super heroes, and it's Not American, it's going to be bad.

Oh hey, that sounds kind of stupid when you put it like that. ...8| Or uh, to put it another way: 90% of everything sucks, regardless of where it's from. There, that settles it.

Also, what Fawn said. I know enough about Japan so that most things set in Japan that's not by someone Japanese/from Japan/has been to Japan/etc. makes me roll my eyes and go, "Yeah, right."

[Marcelo_Orlando]

think the main problem is that people try to make their games about Japan when they have no idea what Japan is really like

Also, what Fawn said. I know enough about Japan so that most things set in Japan that's not by someone Japanese/from Japan/has been to Japan/etc. makes me roll my eyes and go, "Yeah, right."

Ok, now I know that this may be a bit off topic but hear me out. I may have misread this or just can't understand what it being pointed out so....what are you saying?

I've read these types of comments in other threads and I'm confused about what the issue is. What are you saying exactly? You have a problem because people (who know little to nothing) about Japan are making games with their own personal idea of what Japan is like? Is that it?

Keep in mind that this is not an attack on any person or persons, I'm just curious. As I said before, I could have misread.

Now, if this is the case and I have understood your words correctly then I'm just wondering why this is a big deal. You see, I've played games and watched anime shows that are based of Japan and it's culture and they put their own pin on it. They changed certain things to fit the story, and I even watched an animated show where they were "supposed" to be speaking Japanese and I find out by someone who is Japanese that they weren't, and these people who made these games and shows are making money. So....I don't see what the big deal is.

[Mink]

My problem isn't so much that as I tend to see people try to do a *realistic* story set in Japan and everything they know about Japan is clearly based off anime and manga. That'd be like if someone Japanese tried to make a realistic story set in the U.S. but everything they know about the U.S. is from movies. Or if you wanted to do a story set in the southern U.S., but you've only seen the movie The Water Boy or Gone With The Wind. Or if you want to make a story about being black in the U.S. and you just decide to watch hip hop movies.

See where I'm going with this? It's one thing to put your own spin on something; it's another to use fictional media as your source of information for something meant to be realistically in that setting.

[gekiganwing]

The English-speaking visual novel fandom is still small. I suspect that if you went to an anime/manga fan convention and asked a random sample of fans, only a few of them would be active visual novel fans. You would probably meet at least a few fans who can't clearly state the differences between Higurashi and an average J-List porn game, or a complex romance game. At judging from my experiences at Penny Arcade Expo, I don't know if you would find more than two or three VN fans at a general video game fan convention. I might be too negative in my thinking...

In terms of writing and presentation, I know there's more which can be done with western visual novels. A lot of creative stuff has already been done -- compare what's available now with what existed in 2005. Then think about what stories can still be written, as well as how they can be presented. (For instance, look at Scott McCloud's _Understanding Comics_, and pay attention to the parts which discuss genres and art styles.)

One big problem is lack of support, and lack of money in order to help this fandom grow. The more fans that are involved, the more diverse content can be created. And if there are more fans who are willing to buy independent games, then creators can take chances and thrive. Therefore, go out into the world, and make disciples of all potential fans. Look for people with related interests, and help them learn to create interactive stories. Find individuals who are ready and willing to push the boundaries of what Ren'py, Novelty Maker, and other tools can do.

I acknowledge that I enjoy things such as harems, moeblobs, and cute slice of life stories. But at the same time, I admit this is probably just me being a crazy fan. Romantic comedy can be done well, but it won't appeal to people who want literary fiction. Also, it's possible to make an emotionally troubled twin-tailed girl become a compelling character, she won't appeal to people who enjoy sci-fi and fantasy fiction. ...So yeah, what I'm getting at is that a lot of the concepts I like are unpopular outside of the fandom.

Or uh, to put it another way: 90% of everything sucks, regardless of where it's from. There, that settles it.

You are correct. And you're probably referencing an idea which has been in circulation for decades.

[Auro-Cyanide]

I think one of the main problems is that OELVNs (and other original english stuff) are seen as copies. And frankly for very good reasons.

It is all quite a natural process, but it's probably not entirely useful when a particular group is trying to define themselves. I would say most people that come into VN making do so because they become fans of something related to VNs. Fans often want to emulate their favourite works. This means they will try to copy what has been done before. Unfortunately, not many developers have a significant budget to match these already existing works and so the OELVN comes off as a cheap second class copy of the original. You see this a lot with people who want to make comics. They are fans of Naruto, Bleach, Berserk, whatever, and they want to be just like them. There goal is not to tell a good story, but to copy the success of others. However it is very unlikely that they can ever match the original, and people will be able to see that.

Generally I tend to steer clear of OEL stuff unless I see a gleam of originality. The reason I am even here is because I see the potential of the medium, not because I want to copy something that already exists. I have seen a number of projects that have been taken in very interesting directions. These projects have a much better chance of standing on their own two feet and becoming more accepted by a wider audience. They stop being OELVNs and become simply VNs. I personally think it is high time to make games that we can make, rather than try and copy stuff the Japanese do. I'm not against stuff set in Japan or anything like that, more leaning towards the fact we should claim and make the stories our own. There is no reason we can't innovate and experiment, there is no reason we have to be stuck in stereotypes and moulds. We have just as much right to use the VN medium as any other. Make your own legacy.

[Marcelo_Orlando]

My problem isn't so much that as I tend to see people try to do a *realistic* story set in Japan and everything they know about Japan is clearly based off anime and manga. That'd be like if someone Japanese tried to make a realistic story set in the U.S. but everything they know about the U.S. is from movies. Or if you wanted to do a story set in the southern U.S., but you've only seen the movie The Water Boy or Gone With The Wind. Or if you want to make a story about being black in the U.S. and you just decide to watch hip hop movies.

See where I'm going with this? It's one thing to put your own spin on something; it's another to use fictional media as your source of information for something meant to be realistically in that setting

I understand your point but hasn't that always been the case? Even in movies I see that a lot. Something similar to that would be those movies that were supposed to be historically accurate and they're not even close. I wonder though, if it's harder for people to stomach because these games are made by an amateur or amateurs than a popular company.

Generally I tend to steer clear of OEL stuff unless I see a gleam of originality. The reason I am even here is because I see the potential of the medium, not because I want to copy something that already exists. I have seen a number of projects that have been taken in very interesting directions. These projects have a much better chance of standing on their own two feet and becoming more accepted by a wider audience. They stop being OELVNs and become simply VNs. I personally think it is high time to make games that we can make, rather than try and copy stuff the Japanese do. I'm not against stuff set in Japan or anything like that, more leaning towards the fact we should claim and make the stories our own. There is no reason we can't innovate and experiment, there is no reason we have to be stuck in stereotypes and moulds. We have just as much right to use the VN medium as any other. Make your own legacy.


_____

Well said and I agree. Anime is great and is a legend on it's own. I agree completely that we should push our own imagination and creativity to make original works that we can call our own.

[Mink]

I'd be okay with something being historically inaccurate if that's kind of the point (like The Emperor's New Groove), rather than someone just not spending the effort to look something up, or just not caring. We can just agree to disagree about this, though.

On topic: as I said before, I've seen people say something is bad because it's Not Japanese without even trying it. I don't like turn-based games, for example, but it'd be kind of silly to say a particular game is bad just because it's turn-based and I haven't actually played it.

@Auro: I've also seen people too often copy the bad parts and miss what made the original successful to begin with. I don't know how people manage to accomplish that, but they do.

And I mean, I was writing stuff before this and just thought, "Hey, making one of those could be fun to try!" I surely didn't go, "ZOMG JAPAN!!11!" >x> Not to mention, of things that do inspire me or whatever, none of them are really Japanese. Okay, maybe Japanese horror movies. Those are awesome.

@gekiganwing: I sure am referencing that. I had just forgotten the actual term for it at the time.

[Chorvaqueen]

thanks for replying guys

i'd like to share something I've just remembered that maybe slightly related.

Some time ago while browsing the net, i would see google ads pertaining to a "filipino manga". Now before those google ads flourished, I already knew what comic series that is and I actually tried it for the sake of curiosity. I was greatly disappointed on the content as the artist blatantly copied what your typical japanese suburb would look like and would try passing it as a city of Manila. It just doesn't make any sense to me for I know what Manila looks like and I do take offense that the artist is Filipiino himself. What takes the cake though as how the comic is heavily promoted in this manner: "Filipino Manga". It's obvious where this is going to but really IMO, I find it pathetic to promote it such way. But then again after much thought...would anyone bothere being curious if the ad said "original manga?" 'coz I bet the first two things people will think is 1.) it's an obvious OEL, 2.) as Auro_Cyanide post would say about it's probably a blatant copy of X. Besides, isn't it a bit pointless to call it "original manga"?

Then lately I met someone claiming to have made/been doing the first Filipino VN. You could imagine me spinning on where I was sitting.

@mink, you can be blunt by saying weebs lol

[papillon]

Something similar to that would be those movies that were supposed to be historically accurate and they're not even close. I wonder though, if it's harder for people to stomach because these games are made by an amateur or amateurs than a popular company.

Consider the audience. Many people who are fans of "historical" series that bear little resemblance to the real history not only don't know the real history, they also don't know the FAKE history. It's all completely new to them and they appreciate the story on its face value.

When you make a VN based on your vague knowledge of Japan gleaned from anime and try to market it to people who have watched all the same shows you have, it comes across as empty mimicry with nothing new to say. And then there are the people who know MORE about the subject than you do, who will tend to have an even worse opinion of it. (Just like a lot of people who DO know the real history get quite upset about "historical drama" that perverts the truth.)

A VN based on your vague concept of Japanese life as seen in anime can still do just fine if presented to people who aren't serious anime fans, to whom your world is an exciting new discovery rather than a retread of everything they've already seen. However, an awful lot of people turning up on boards like THIS aren't going to fall into that category.

[Mink]

Also, proper research can only make your work better in the long run.

For example: Tiger & Bunny was almost called 'Busty & Bunny', bust to mean like when you break something. But 'busty'...doesn't really mean that. One of the...producers? Did research and they changed it, because as a show also meant to appeal to people outside of Japan, you know that would have had a lot of unintentional hilarity among English-speakers. And the rest of the show has really good English, so yeah. Either everyone who did that all spoke fluent English or they were willing to learn/research it. (Also consider that Sternbild is obviously in an English-speaking country and the city itself is actually based on Manhattan. I like to think it's set in America, because can you see anyone BUT Americans making a reality show like that? >x>)

TL;DR: Research can only help you. The more you know, the more of a convincing story you can write.

@mink, you can be blunt by saying weebs lol

...*COUGH*

Seriously, though. When I say 'manga', I'm talking about a comic specifically from Japan. I mean, isn't anime actually a shortened form of 'Japanimation', which is in turn shorter for Japanese animation? So if you try to call something, say, an American anime, you're doing it wrong.

[Chorvaqueen]

lol troper

[J. Datie]

I mean, isn't anime actually a shortened form of 'Japanimation', which is in turn shorter for Japanese animation?

No, it's a shortened form of just "animation", used in Japan.

[Mink]

...I was close. >x> I'll try to remember that in the future, though.

@Chorvaqueen: I CAN STOP ANY TIME I WANT.

No, but really. Didn't the creator of Emma get flak for being historically inaccurate, at least towards the beginning? Also, Naoki Urasawa mentioning the KKK in Pluto (you know that robot hate group? KR?). Which they really do come off as, outfits and all: the KKK, but with robots. Either A) the KKK is so infamous as a hate group that even in Japan they're well-known, or B) he probably took the time to look up hate groups.

Actually, I just looked though my Pluto collection (sadly I only have 1-4, at the moment). It's in volume 3, on page 63: "They're like a modern version of the Ku Klux Klan...". (Which...makes me wonder. The KKK doesn't exist anymore in the future?) Unfortunately, ever since watching O Brother, Where Art Thou? I can't see anything involving the KKK without wanting to giggle. :C