Neglected WIP Threads

[Taleweaver]

One of the problems I remember from last time, aside form other problems that arose, was that people said they were making games that they'd like everybody to enjoy and they didn't want to restrict their games to a certain label and thus a certain forum that may or may not be avoided by a percentage of the forum audience because the main character happened to be of one genre and there happened to be romance in the story with other characters of this or that genre.

I WAS one of those people who said he wanted to create games everybody can enjoy. Unfortunately, it seems I was wrong. Many people here can apparently only enjoy games with strong ren'ai content, and the attention they give to pure-bred ren'ai titles smothers any attention other VNs may be getting. As BL said: within two days, a thread in the WIP forum gets buried on page 2 or 3 unless a steady stream of "ooh this is interesting" comments keeps it bumped up on the front page, and at the moment, it's almost exclusively ren'ai games that get that attention. Again, compare this to the movie industry: the big blockbusters get all the front-page attention, only that the newspapers no longer have a page exclusively for the rest of art and culture.

Segregation, in this case, would be protectionism for genres that aren't that attractive to a part of the audience here. But honestly, I start feeling as though I could use some protection. If you know what I mean.

[Auro-Cyanide]

I think it had something to do with people who make otome games feeling they were being segregated from everyone else. I don't know if segregation is the solution though since there is so much them and us mentality as it is. We are all trying to make the games we like right? We should do more to support each other, not get upset at each other's success, or feel a need to define and divide who does what. A good game is a good game, no matter it's genre.

Yeah, that's the main thing that worried me too. I'm afraid that with a distinction good games would easily get overlooked just because of their genre, because a certain group might never look in that category - even if they would have enjoyed it otherwise.

I guess the best solution is indeed to only post in the WIP forums if you have a decent amount of things to show; synopsis, art, screenshots etc. and perhaps it would help if people wouldn't comment just to say 'stalking you!'.

Right. Like, I expect a lot of people to avoid BCM like the plague. There are aspects of it that are not going to be everyone's cup of tea, or maybe that have a certain conception of the genre that we are doing. However, since it's in the main WIP forum, there is a chance that people who wouldn't normally consider the genre may wander in and check it out. We have gotten a fair few comments of "I don't normally play BxB but...". This is far less likely to happen if we were in a separate forum because people just wouldn't look there to even give us a try. Tags are just tags, sometimes you have to look beyond that.

I'm a fan of the idea of 'open development'. While I'm not completely doing it for BCM because it's going to be commercial, I still like to post WIPs of the sprites and that I am making because I like to share my process. This is a game development forum, not just a place to advertise your WIPs and games. I think it would be nice to share more and treat the people here as an invaluable resource of knowledge, not just potential players.

@Taleweaver, I don't know if you would get any more attention though? There would be a good chance your game would be shuffled of to a sub-forum were 3 people hung out while everyone else was somewhere else and don't even have the chance to click on your game out of curiosity. I just don't know if segregation would help people in the long run I suppose, but it may.

[Deji]

I'm a fan of the idea of 'open development'. While I'm not completely doing it for BCM because it's going to be commercial, I still like to post WIPs of the sprites and that I am making because I like to share my process. This is a game development forum, not just a place to advertise your WIPs and games. I think it would be nice to share more and treat the people here as an invaluable resource of knowledge, not just potential players.

I support Open Development wholeheartedly. I remember we were trying to do that last time and it was really cool, however I haven't seen many open dev threads since I came back... what happened with that >: ?

[Auro-Cyanide]

I'm a fan of the idea of 'open development'. While I'm not completely doing it for BCM because it's going to be commercial, I still like to post WIPs of the sprites and that I am making because I like to share my process. This is a game development forum, not just a place to advertise your WIPs and games. I think it would be nice to share more and treat the people here as an invaluable resource of knowledge, not just potential players.

I support Open Development wholeheartedly. I remember we were trying to do that last time and it was really cool, however I haven't seen many open dev threads since I came back... what happened with that >: ?

I don't know It's a bit sad because I thought it was a really good idea and would help everyone expand past the whole 'This is cool' comment stage.
I'm guessing it is because people are really protective of their ideas and they treat everyone as just players, but I could be wrong.

[Taleweaver]

@Taleweaver, I don't know if you would get any more attention though? There would be a good chance your game would be shuffled of to a sub-forum were 3 people hung out while everyone else was somewhere else and don't even have the chance to click on your game out of curiosity. I just don't know if segregation would help people in the long run I suppose, but it may.

Cannes Film Festival. Once a year, with the focus on movies that are hardly discussed anywhere and which would get no attention whatsoever if mass appeal was the only thing that counted.

And really, if only three people ever looked into that sub-forum, then at least I was certain that this was the wrong community for my sort of VNs. Would be sorta sad, but that I could understand.

[Wright1000]

To be honest, a game's quality does not depend on it's number of comments. I have seen many good VNs in this forum. Not only the story was good, but also the story had an inner meaning. But, still people do not comment. For example- The game "Unpolished" by Lordcloudx.
It is because they don't understand the inner meaning of such VNs.
Most comments are useless. For example- This character was my favorite, because he wears this and that. I didn't like this character because of this and that. These comments are not helpful and may also make the creator feel bad about his game.
Most people in this forum only hanker after romance games. Especially "Girl pursues Boy" games. Don't know why, though.
But, a creator should not go after what is popular. He should always go after what he likes to make. I rarely make romance games. I like to make action games, about assassins and terrorists, and so that's what I always do. We should always go after something original, instead of hankering for popularity.
What is right is not always popular, what is popular is not always right.

However, seeing my latest game getting comments like "what, there's no romance in that?" makes me think whether introducing two separate categories for "ren'ai-focused"/"non-ren'ai focused" would be a good idea.

Don't take it to your heart.
If someone is expecting romance in a philosophical story, I doubt his/her IQ.
In my opinion, out of all your games, The Thirteenth Year was the best.

[Auro-Cyanide]

@Taleweaver, I don't know if you would get any more attention though? There would be a good chance your game would be shuffled of to a sub-forum were 3 people hung out while everyone else was somewhere else and don't even have the chance to click on your game out of curiosity. I just don't know if segregation would help people in the long run I suppose, but it may.

Cannes Film Festival. Once a year, with the focus on movies that are hardly discussed anywhere and which would get no attention whatsoever if mass appeal was the only thing that counted.

And really, if only three people ever looked into that sub-forum, then at least I was certain that this was the wrong community for my sort of VNs. Would be sorta sad, but that I could understand.

I can see your point. But the films featured at the Cannes festival don't get discussed much outside of the festival. Comparatively speaking it is probably close to VN equivalents of the more arty VNs and the more general ones. VNs are a niche within a niche within a niche ^_^'

I suppose after that you have to ask yourself why you make games. Cause we can all face there are easier ways to tell a story and there are easier ways to get popular. Would I be hurt if no-one played a game I made? Yes. Would I stop? Probably not. It's similar to the feeling I get when a whole bunch of people favourite a crappy fan art I did years ago over my much better art I spent hours on >:(

Maybe instead of segregation, we can come up with a way to encourage people to interact with each other? Like play a game they wouldn't normally? Or sit down and comment in-depth on a WIP topic? How would we get people to do that? I think it might be a healthier way to encourage diversity over separation, causing more of a circulation of ideas and feedback. People are drawn to what they are interested in, but a lot of us here are intelligent individuals that surely could branch out and study other things?

[Anna]

I don't know It's a bit sad because I thought it was a really good idea and would help everyone expand past the whole 'This is cool' comment stage.
I'm guessing it is because people are really protective of their ideas and they treat everyone as just players, but I could be wrong.

I don't think it's a bad idea either to get feedback, but there might be some problems when this goes too far.

For example when someone has a character concept they like, they could get annoyed at people going 'No, make it like this'. Giving constructive criticism is good, but some people think stating their preferences is the same (e.g. that character should have blue hair), without explaining why their preference is good.

Another reason may be that the person already works in a group, is open to suggestions, but has a fairly well thought out idea of where they're going. Sharing too much might end up ruining the fun of playing or even creating it too. You create because it's fun for you, but also because it's fun to surprise people right ?

@Taleweaver:

And yet this is one of the best places to put your game for those interested. Eventually someone will stumble across it and at least others can pass it by, see it, click on it and get interested. Just because something's a niche of a niche, doesn't mean that only the people familiar with it would like it. Making distinct forums will only lead to the niche remaining a niche of a niche and never growing beyond that.

[Taleweaver]

Maybe instead of segregation, we can come up with a way to encourage people to interact with each other? Like play a game they wouldn't normally? Or sit down and comment in-depth on a WIP topic? How would we get people to do that? I think it might be a healthier way to encourage diversity over separation, causing more of a circulation of ideas and feedback. People are drawn to what they are interested in, but a lot of us here are intelligent individuals that surely could branch out and study other things?

I'd love it if that was possible, but slowly, I'm starting to lose faith that it is. I've been a long-term member of this community, and in the course of the last year, I've started to get the feeling that diversity is no longer welcome here. Honestly, the only games that seem to gain any feedback are
1. Games with super-polished art and high production values, that at least look professional
2. Otome games that are as otome as otome gets, preferrably with at least three datable bishounen and a plot that's about love, romance, relationships and dating
3. Games that somehow replicate successful JVN titles - horror in the Higurashi and Corpse Party sense, for example, or Ever17-clones.

mikey recently released two wonderfully sentimental VNs about leaving behind your past, and he had like seven comments. TCAST with its otome appeal had fourteen pages of comments. (Of course, the fact that it was an absolutely enthralling story may have helped a bit...) I cannot see how games that don't appeal to the wider audience here at the LSF (the "Hollywood blockbusters", if I may put it like that) have an chance of getting noticed at all. If you have any ideas, please, don't hesitate to tell me!

If you have any idea about how to make people look beyond their usual horizon of interest,

@Taleweaver:

And yet this is one of the best places to put your game for those interested. Eventually someone will stumble across it and at least others can pass it by, see it, click on it and get interested. Just because something's a niche of a niche, doesn't mean that only the people familiar with it would like it. Making distinct forums will only lead to the niche remaining a niche of a niche and never growing beyond that.

I beg to differ. Giving non-standard (i.e. non-ren'ai VNs) a niche to grow will at least give them a chance of attracting interest.

[Rewritten Ennui]

You can't really force people to post if they don't have the time. It's really up to the individual users here to make an effort to support other games and not just their own. Also, if I'm not mistaken, isn't one of the traditions here a VN Festival where everyone goes out and tries a couple of the completed games? Maybe we can adapt that to WIP boards somehow...

[Deji]

The only thing that comes to mind right now would be a... uhm... "featured WIP" system? (we're still talking bout WIPs here, right? Not about the games that have been completed), so everybody gets their chance for spotlight?
And, uhm, during the week (?) a certain WIP may be featured, it'd be encouraged that people discuss it... or something.

Or maybe, a group of monthly featured projects. You'd have to apply to get featured, with... idk... a proof-of-concept demo? A website? Something?
And people would be encouraged to try them and give their feedback.

I don't know, that's all I can think of right now >:

[Anna]

Agreed with Ennui, you can't force people to post. Not everyone who liked it will post either, so it doesn't only represent how much people played it, but could also be a result of the nature of the people who play it.

Besides, can you blame them for going for production values and such when 1) there are so many WIP threads, and 2) production values are a sign of quality, i.e. that something's going to be worth your time.

So either polish up your original post so that it captivates the reader better (not just by using art, but making things neatly organised as well) or hire/ask for a better artist or whatever you think is lacking.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, isn't one of the traditions here a VN Festival where everyone goes out and tries a couple of the completed games? Maybe we can adapt that to WIP boards somehow...

I heard of this too, it sounded really nice. How did this go in previous years?

The only thing that comes to mind right now would be a... uhm... "featured WIP" system? (we're still talking bout WIPs here, right? Not about the games that have been completed), so everybody gets their chance for spotlight?
And, uhm, during the week (?) a certain WIP may be featured, it'd be encouraged that people discuss it... or something.

Or maybe, a group of monthly featured projects. You'd have to apply to get featured, with... idk... a proof-of-concept demo? A website? Something?
And people would be encouraged to try them and give their feedback.

Maybe a monthly article or something which features three projects that seem nice and tells you why it's got potential + a link to its WIP thread/site/whatever?

[Auro-Cyanide]

@Taleweaver

Well, it's definitely difficult because generally you can't make people do anything. You have to figure out why they are not doing it in the first place and then manipulate them in the opposite direction.

Generally, we know that people aren't doing it simply because of human nature. They are attracted to what they like, females are more vocal, people are attracted to pretty things *raises hand for that one*, yadda, yadda, yadda. So we want people to put effort into something they are not naturally into, which means there has to be something in it for them. Of course, you can't get popular attention without doing popular stuff (I'm not even going to comment on the tastes of the general population), it just doesn't work that way. However, getting some thoughtful and helpful comments and possible spreading the information amongst those of us here that care about VNs is probably not beyond us with a bit of thinking.

These are only suggestions mind you, but it can't hurt to voice them:

-Game trading: Similar to an art trade, you each play each other's game/demo or view WIP and give a detailed review. This obviously relies on the participation of the two people. Preferably they would come from contrasting areas.
-Game Club: Like a book club, a small group set a game for a period of time and everyone can review it.

Hell, I don't think either of these would be easy, but I think there would be at least a chance that someone would look at your game and talk to you about it.

[Joey]

I think it's going to be very hard to pinpoint the problem in this case and hence find a proper solution. So many things factor in. >_<; Frankly I think rather than adjusting the forum to fit the issue it would be easier to adjust the mindset of the game creators on this forum. A neglected WIP thread isn't your fault, most of the time. If all else fails blame it on your own bad luck. ^^; And continue working on the game! No matter how neglected the WIP thread is, once it's posted under "Completed Games" I'm pretty sure at least one person will play it and give feedback. That's why I really like this forum hehe.

Though speaking as a game creator, an active audience actually waiting for you to release updates of the game (i.e. a popular WIP thread) is very good incentive to work harder. I think that even small comments like "Wow, this looks good!" or "I can't wait for this to come out!", despite not being completely constructive, can be very encouraging for game makers just starting out.

But all the same your thread being neglected =/= your game is bad. This is something everyone should keep in mind. ;u;

[Anna]

I beg to differ. Giving non-standard (i.e. non-ren'ai VNs) a niche to grow will at least give them a chance of attracting interest.

I don't believe that. I've seen the same thing happen with a 'doujinshi' forum somewhere else - what happened was that it became a deserted place where only those who were already interested in it or creating their own doujinshi would reply. The group could never grow, while you will catch more attention in a general forum for everyone. They will see your project, unlike in a separate forum which they ignore.