The Bad Apple Cast (girls' opinions?)

[Mink]

I'm pretty sure there is nothing you could do that would freak me out. Wire in the Blood is one of my favourite shows because it delves into the darker side of humanity, which is there whether we like it or not. So that interests me a lot. Again it would be how you dealt with it.

Yeah, I've read the book Acheron by Sherrilyn Kenyon, I've seen Tideland (NO ONE WATCH THAT MOVIE), I can watch Braindead/Dead Alive without flinching, and Criminal Minds* is one of my favorite shows. It takes a lot to make me freak out, and even then I don't get freaked out so much as seriously annoyed, or at worse actively offended.

Die in a fire, Gears of War.

I think I would be worried if there was a positive message about negative acts. I don't care if characters accept them, since they are neither you nor me, but I don't like things that seem to promote negative acts (like twilight promotes staling as a romantic act :/) I'm pretty sure that isn't what you intend to do, but it might be something you need to stay aware of.

^This. Lots of times someone one may not *intend* to do something, but people can be like, "How did they not see this?" (Kind of like the racist casting with Power Rangers. How did it take them so long to notice that?)

Rape is a touchy subject and it is linked to fetishes because of the whole concept of dominace vs submissiveness. However there is a big difference between fake/fantasy and real depending on how you write it. A rape scene in an erotic novel is going to be very different to how a rape victim would tell their story. It's probably something you want to be careful with and be aware that some people won't play it depending on what you do.

^Also this. My problem isn't with someone writing rape into a story, my problem is how people tend to write it, especially when it comes to men, in that it seems to be taken less seriously or not seriously at all.

As much as I hate Bizarre Uprising (a NSFW webcomic), at least when a male character is attacked and raped by a girl, it's not treated like a joke, or less serious than if the genders had been swapped.

*I also like true crime shows and books, but people tend to think you're a freak if you do. >x>

[MiSi]

I personally am not offended by evil or bad guys. Sometimes I even prefer reading about them instead of the nice, always friendly ones. Come to think of that, many of my main characters are bastards, too (-> see Siro from 'The Master's Call' for example). I even created a human eating, superintelligent race ( am I bad? )

The most important thing is, that it's only fiction. I think, only reading or writing about bad things/persons won't raise your potential of becoming a serial killer or whatsoever. It even kinda reduces aggression (that's the case with me and I consider myself as a very friendly and calm person; don't know though, what others think about it).

[Mink]

Well, in case you thought I meant bad or evil characters offend me, they don't. I wouldn't watch Criminal Minds if I was that sensitive. The Gears of War universe, however, has become something to actively offend me, and that takes a lot*. Also, what DC comics did to Starfire in the reboot also makes me feel this way.

Or to put it this way: I'm not offended as a gamer/comic reader, I'm not even offended as a woman. I'M OFFENDED AS A HUMAN BEING.

Also, please don't say 'it's only fiction', which is kind of disingenuous towards fiction. If the idea is, "It's fiction, it's not a big dead/doesn't matter." why should I even care or bother about it? It may not be what you meant, but being fiction doesn't make something exempt from being criticized for bullshit.

I'm not expecting an epic masterpiece from...anything, but the least I expect is COMPETENCY.

*You're going to have to trust me on the fact I'm actually very hard to offend

[MiSi]

With 'only fiction' I actually ment: Not reality. I wouldn't want everything I write happen for real (hell, no!)
In fact: Sometimes fiction even means more to me than real life ._. (yes, your own mind and creations can be a drug, too )

Well, in case you thought I meant bad or evil characters offend me, they don't.

I was answering the post in general

[Mink]

Ah, okay. And yeah, I love the game Prototype and The Experiment - 112, but good god I'd hate to be in either of those scenarios for real. D:

[narusasu]

However I must admit, I don't want everyone that hangs out with the protagonist are bad guys, I would be very mad to find out that all of them only tricked and played him. Maybe you can make them turn into good later on, but still have that 'villainous' feel around.
So basically, the characters can be bad as they want, but some of them still need have a sense of justice. Each of them need their weakness, and I think that BL VN will be perfect to be play by us Yaoi fangirls.

I will keep this in mind while writing it. And yes, I think it will be similar to Togainu no Chi, though I have not played the VN. I do know the characters and how the story turns out though. C : Thank you for the suggestions! I am thinking deeply over your words right now… ^^

It is true that no matter what you do, there will be someone, somewhere that won't like it. It's just a fact you can't please veryone all the time.
I think I would be worried if there was a positive message about negative acts. I don't care if characters accept them, since they are neither you nor me, but I don't like things that seem to promote negative acts (like twilight promotes staling as a romantic act :/) I'm pretty sure that isn't what you intend to do, but it might be something you need to stay aware of.

I will certainly stay wary of that! And yes, I have no intentions of promoting negative acts. ^^ I understand that I will not be able to please everyone, but I’m still interested in making something that a majority of BL fans can enjoy.

If you base the bad guys on the Seven Sins, I'd really like to see anybody draw Gluttony as your typical yaoi bishounen... only with an additional 200 lbs of weight...

Hee hee, well I got around gluttony pretty easy actually. He’s a bishounen who likes to consume people’s hearts. : P

And when I mean they make poor choices, they’re doing things like killing, raping, stealing, and lying.

Did they do it because they had to/were forced to? Or did they do it just for the sake of doing bad things to other people? I'm don't read or watch yaoi so I'm not too familiar with the usual plot devices, but you should tread carefully when dealing with issues like rape and such.

I see what you mean… and when I read this a few days ago I started asking myself this very question. I have made some revisions since then. I will definitely tread carefully. Thank you for the suggestions.

And I would react the same way. If a character is all, "Sure I'm a rapist, but I've totes changed!", no. Just no.
There's being a jerk ass, and then there's being a completely irredeemable douche bag you want to see set on fire.

I see what you’re saying. Let me give you a quick summary of the character’s route: The rapist in the story is compulsively driven to commit sexual acts with his best friend (possibly due to abuse as a child?), though as of yet he has only thought about it. He is actually ashamed of his compulsive wants throughout the story. His route deals with shame, denial, and then finally his horrific acceptance of not being able to control himself. He often leaves the scene when he and the main character are alone together because he distrusts himself. Do you think this is acceptable or is this something you might consider offensive to you and a possibly other female readers? I am taking this subject very seriously before releasing anything, so your feedback would be most greatly appreciated.

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Thank you all who have thought about this subject seriously and have earnestly replied with wonderful suggestions and advice. This forum has already greatly determined the outcome of the story, but I am still making decisions and it is still too early to release any kind of beta scripts. I think I can say for sure though that the story is no longer on an 18+ level. I am going to stick to shounen-ai for this project. Maybe in the future I can go back and write in some 18+ scenes, but for now I’ve decided I want this to be meant for a broader audience.

[Taleweaver]

If you base the bad guys on the Seven Sins, I'd really like to see anybody draw Gluttony as your typical yaoi bishounen... only with an additional 200 lbs of weight...

Hee hee, well I got around gluttony pretty easy actually. He’s a bishounen who likes to consume people’s hearts. : P

Meh, that's a cop-out -_-

[Mink]

I see what you’re saying. Let me give you a quick summary of the character’s route: The rapist in the story is compulsively driven to commit sexual acts with his best friend (possibly due to abuse as a child?), though as of yet he has only thought about it. He is actually ashamed of his compulsive wants throughout the story. His route deals with shame, denial, and then finally his horrific acceptance of not being able to control himself. He often leaves the scene when he and the main character are alone together because he distrusts himself. Do you think this is acceptable or is this something you might consider offensive to you and a possibly other female readers? I am taking this subject very seriously before releasing anything, so your feedback would be most greatly appreciated.

That doesn't sound that bad. At the very least it doesn't strike me as being...rapey for the sake of drama or as a short cut to evoke sympathy. Or that fucking trend in yaoi where rape is apparently the sure fire way to make someone come out the closet. You get the idea.

Also, this may be nitpicking, but it's kind of cliche to say he had a bad/abusive childhood; not that you'd necessarily do it, but people tend to use that as a short cut to a more complex back story, or basically the Halloween remake, where they made Michael's back story cliche beyond belief:

his sister's the whore of Babylon, his mom is a stripper, his step-dad's an pervert asshole, he gets bullied... At the very least it could have been a well-written cliche, but nope.

[narusasu]

If you base the bad guys on the Seven Sins, I'd really like to see anybody draw Gluttony as your typical yaoi bishounen... only with an additional 200 lbs of weight...

Hee hee, well I got around gluttony pretty easy actually. He’s a bishounen who likes to consume people’s hearts. : P

Meh, that's a cop-out -_-

Ha ha, it is. But seriously, I don't think it'd be too hard to make a cute/handsome fat guy. I have many drawings of chubby boys that I consider handsome...!! Maybe I'm just biased though, since I adore chubby boys. (Ahem*my boyfriend*ahem) < : I love soft things....! *__* (ignore me...;;)

That doesn't sound that bad. At the very least it doesn't strike me as being...rapey for the sake of drama or as a short cut to evoke sympathy. Or that fucking trend in yaoi where rape is apparently the sure fire way to make someone come out the closet. You get the idea.

Also, this may be nitpicking, but it's kind of cliche to say he had a bad/abusive childhood; not that you'd necessarily do it, but people tend to use that as a short cut to a more complex back story, or basically the Halloween remake, where they made Michael's back story cliche beyond belief:

his sister's the whore of Babylon, his mom is a stripper, his step-dad's an pervert asshole, he gets bullied... At the very least it could have been a well-written cliche, but nope.

Arg, you're right..! ;A; I didn't even think about cliches... I need to watch out for those. Thank you for sharing your advice and opinions. ^^

[papillon]

Meh, that's a cop-out -_-

Ha ha, it is. But seriously, I don't think it'd be too hard to make a cute/handsome fat guy. I have many drawings of chubby boys that I consider handsome...!! Maybe I'm just biased though, since I adore chubby boys. (Ahem*my boyfriend*ahem) < : I love soft things....! *__* (ignore me...;;)

It's not too hard, but it's not often done - any bigger guys are more often treated as comic relief than as obtainable cuties - so it would be nice to see one available.

(Of course, there are plenty of food gluttons who aren't fat, as well, but that's another story. It would amuse me to see someone doing the seven deadly sins draw gluttony as an extremely skinny geek constantly eating doughnuts and pizza, but it wouldn't be as generally interesting, I don't think.)

[narusasu]

It's not too hard, but it's not often done - any bigger guys are more often treated as comic relief than as obtainable cuties - so it would be nice to see one available.

Yeah, I know what you mean... Gah! Now your giving me second thoughts! But, no I can't! If I made one of the characters fat, I'd want him to be a complete nice guy! Hmmm... I'm gonna have to think about this now... T3T (inner struggle)

[Zatch]

Ha ha, it is. But seriously, I don't think it'd be too hard to make a cute/handsome fat guy. I have many drawings of chubby boys that I consider handsome...!! Maybe I'm just biased though, since I adore chubby boys. (Ahem*my boyfriend*ahem) < : I love soft things....! *__* (ignore me...;;)

Wow! He must be a big flirt then. Or He eats allot of food! I'm in for more chubby guys! Just not too chubby that would be distracting... x.x