You ever worry your work won't be taken seriously?

[jack_norton]

I can't say I blame you. In fact, this is preceisely why I always hound PyTom into making an iOS port of Ren'Py. It's my belief that the iDevices are a blank slate (harhar), waiting to be colonized with VN content.

iOS (in particular iPad, on iPhones the texts are really too small for my tastes) are indeed good medium, but for any kind of game, not just VN. The new Fire Kindle looks also is going to be a hit, I think it might even pass iOS sales (that's my personal opinion though).

[Voight-Kampff]

iOS (in particular iPad, on iPhones the texts are really too small for my tastes) are indeed good medium, but for any kind of game, not just VN. The new Fire Kindle looks also is going to be a hit, I think it might even pass iOS sales (that's my personal opinion though).

True. Although, I think VNs are especially well suited for tablets. Primarily because tablets don't have very good control input schemes. It's pretty much just a touch screen. And as luck would have it, VNs don't need much of a control scheme. Just tap or swipe the screen to advance the text.

[Junker-Kun]

I can't say I blame you. In fact, this is preceisely why I always hound PyTom into making an iOS port of Ren'Py. It's my belief that the iDevices are a blank slate (harhar), waiting to be colonized with VN content.

iOS (in particular iPad, on iPhones the texts are really too small for my tastes) are indeed good medium, but for any kind of game, not just VN. The new Fire Kindle looks also is going to be a hit, I think it might even pass iOS sales (that's my personal opinion though).

Not everywhere I'm afraid. In some countries (Russia for example) iOS devices costs nearly three times more than in US. So as you can understand not every person have said iPod or iPad. I had though. But changed iPod touch on iPod shuffle (the one that with buttons) 'cause I don't like touch screens lastly.

[PyTom]

Are EVNs really just all lumped together and viewed as beginner fluff? Are people expecting EVNs to be filled with creative commons music and sprites, or worse, lifted sprites and music from other "real" VNs?

I think the answer is "yes - but".

If you go on to games.renpy.org, and pick a random game off the list, chances are it will _be_ beginner fluff. So to that extent, there's the perception and the reality. What we're seeing, though, is that some of the games break through this. People are like "EVNs aren't good, but Cradle Song/Katawa Shoujo/DTIPB/re:Alistair/etc is really good".

I think it's fundamentally a result of the diversification of the audience for VNs, and the creator community. It used to be that VNs were a small community of people who liked Japanese-style GxB games - we liked and made them, and everyone else ignored us. Now, with a bigger audience, there will be games people don't like - in the same way that if I was to go to a bookstore and pick a random book off the shelf, I would likely dislike it.

[jack_norton]

Now, with a bigger audience, there will be games people don't like - in the same way that if I was to go to a bookstore and pick a random book off the shelf, I would likely dislike it.

Yes I agree 100%. VNs are like books or movies. For example, you can say that Twilight sucks, but for millions of fans it's the best masterpiece ever written. You can say that Asimoov books are masterpieces (and they are!) but for millions of people they suck. And so on.
I just read RPS award of C.Love game: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/12 ... 1-day-two/

I hate the character art and I often became frustrated by all that click-clicking-clicking through bickering dialogue in search of the point where I could intervene.

It's quite hard, apart for JRPG/consoles, to see manga art (especially "cute" one) in games and people in general don't like it.
Tastes are tastes, and even if I'm sure many people won't believe it, it's not like if a game is famous, will necessarily make lots of money and vice versa. Luckily, otherwise I'd be bankrupt already

[Mink]

I worry on both sides of the coin. On one hand I worry about this; on the other hand I worry that people might take my work too seriously, AKA be offended by it.

Because... Have you ever noticed how much "politically incorrect" stuff Japanese media gets away with? Over here in America, you have people constantly explaining it away like "Well, it's from Japan, so there will be racial/religious/gender stereotypes but it's good-natured!/they don't mean anything bad by it!/they don't know that it is considered offensive!" But if there is politically incorrect American media people flip the heck out. Case in point: Hetalia. Do you think an American comic book artist could have gotten away with that without major repercussions?

Yeah, see, I have no problem on calling Japan on it. Then again, I don't have an idealized idea of Japan that they can do no wrong. Though it's not just that, it's anything. I don't like loli/shota, at all, but saying, "It's Japan!" isn't going to stop me from criticizing it if I want to. In fact, I would most likely find the fact someone will blindly defend something more insulting than the actual work. Either way, if you want to defend (OR criticize) something, back it up with something other than, "It's okay because it's Japan". /rant

Actually, that makes me wonder: what do people like that think about Japanese works that criticizes Japan? Hm...

Now, obviously I'm not going to draw a bunch of blackface caricatures or whatever, but I do worry that because I am not from the magical land of Japan, I might get criticized harder for certain things.

Okay, I'll be honest: that would probably just make me laugh. Kind of like how it's hard for me to take H.P. Lovecraft seriously; he was so over-the-top racist, it's like a cartoon, and I just find it more funny than offensive.

Uh, on topic. Can't say I'm really all that concerned about this. If the extent of someone's criticism is that it's Not Japanese, I probably won't value their opinion very much to begin with. 8/

[LateWhiteRabbit]

But interestingly enough, it didn't catch my attention because the review was bashing the game. Quite the contrary. It was surprisingly even-handed. In fact, it was too even-handed. To the point where I felt like it was being condescending. It was basically given a "handicap" in order for it to be reviewed on the same level as "real" Japanese VNs.

At any point in your schooling, have you ever encountered a situation in which someone with a mental handicap was put into one of your classes? Despite the fact that said person obviously needed special attention and couldn't possibly meet the demands of the class? But the teacher tried in vain to make the situation work? That's how I felt about this review.
....
It's like the reviewer is patting the EVN on the head, saying, "There there. Don't you worry about those big-boy titles. It's okay. You're just a EVN after all. I'll give you an extra special review to make you feel every bit as valid and as important as them".

I see this a lot, even within the community, and I don't like it. This is a problem the Indie game market in general struggles with. I don't think any work should receive a handicap when it comes time to review it, whether amateur or professional. It is fine to say you had fun with the game, or enjoyed its story, but if it was lacking in some area in art or quality, etc, it shouldn't be glossed over or ignored. NO ONE improves when the feedback they get is a pat on the back and a thumbs up with a "It's great!" comment.

It's the same reason I don't pay attention to what my family or amateurs say about my art, because the majority of comments boil down to "Wow, it's amazing! (Because it's better than anything I could do.)" I value the constructive criticisms, the professional artists who will look at a piece of mine and say, "You need more contrast. And watch your line weights." etc. At the art school I attended, positive comments during a critique would get the person kicked out of class, because no piece of art is perfect, and telling someone their art was great was not only unhelpful, it was damaging. It handicapped their progress. To put it plainly, someone who won't tell you what you are doing wrong isn't your friend. They're just an enabler for your continued failure or mediocrity.

So I do think VN need to be held to a higher standard. It can only help the genre as a whole. I think we got too complacent on quality because we had so few titles to play for so long that we had to take what we could get. But we aren't at the "ground-floor" of the genre anymore. Games like Tokimeki Memorial were released nearly 20 years ago. And most troubling, besides an increase in screen resolution of graphics (and sometimes not even THAT) we've seen no real improvements in the genre. In fact, a lot of the earlier games like Tokimeki Memorial and Trule Love '95, have better or more complex gameplay that current offerings.

From Wikipedia:

In Japanese terminology, a distinction is often made between visual novels proper (abbreviated NVL), which are predominantly narrative and have very little interactive elements, and adventure games (abbreviated AVG or ADV), which typically incorporate problem-solving and other gameplay elements. This distinction is normally lost in the West, where both NVLs and ADVs are commonly referred to as "visual novels" by Western fans. Visual novels and ADVs are especially prevalent in Japan, where they made up nearly 70% of the PC game titles released in 2006.

We need that distinction. Because I've seen people willing to give VNs a shot that were gamers, but vowed never to touch the genre again after playing what they referred to as "slideshows". 'Why not just watch an anime?' they ask. There are VNs with great gameplay that get passed over because everyone assumes that VN have no gameplay. So we miss a big segment of gamers, who care about story too, but want to DO something in a game.

I think it's fundamentally a result of the diversification of the audience for VNs, and the creator community. It used to be that VNs were a small community of people who liked Japanese-style GxB games - we liked and made them, and everyone else ignored us. Now, with a bigger audience, there will be games people don't like - in the same way that if I was to go to a bookstore and pick a random book off the shelf, I would likely dislike it.

Very true, which is why it is important we are more judicious and accurate with our labels instead of just grouping every release under the header of "Visual Novel". "Choose Your Own Adventure" books and the idea are very well-known in the West, and most gamers know what an "adventure" game is. Many visual novels with gameplay elements are near identical to adventure games, but while adventure games have a wide audience, visual novels do not, because if people play one that has no gameplay they assume they are all that way.

I think in a lot of cases a game creator's insistence to stay in the "VN community" is a handicap.

(I come at this all from a more professional standpoint, because that is just my experience and how I think from working with people who helped make and design the Tycoon games, White Wolf games, etc. I don't mean to slight or offend anyone doing this as a hobby, I just believe if anything is worth doing it is worth doing well. I'm not suggesting we shut out amateur works at all, just that we collectively push and encourage each other to always strive for better, instead of giving people in our community a condescending "handicap".)

[Sapphi]

I see this a lot, even within the community, and I don't like it. This is a problem the Indie game market in general struggles with. I don't think any work should receive a handicap when it comes time to review it, whether amateur or professional. It is fine to say you had fun with the game, or enjoyed its story, but if it was lacking in some area in art or quality, etc, it shouldn't be glossed over or ignored. NO ONE improves when the feedback they get is a pat on the back and a thumbs up with a "It's great!" comment.

A problem with this is that part of the community is just in it "as a fun hobby" whereas others are in it as a serious hobby, or a job. Sometimes it's hard to tell who's who. So I bite my tongue a little when giving feedback because I am afraid to discourage someone whose fun hobby today could develop into a serious hobby tomorrow. For most of us here, it's probably hard to walk that line between being welcoming and being honest. We're all so glad that people actually want to make visual novels that we're afraid of telling them what we really think about their work.

I totally agree with what you're saying, though. As an artist, I want to people to tell me how I can do better, not just "oooh pretty!" It's part of the reason I can't seem to get myself to upload anything to my Deviantart anymore. There's just no motivation for me to post anything there anymore; the initial high-school ego-boost of having random people tell me how good I am wore off ages ago.

[Mink]

Yeah, I'm not afraid to give anyone honest feedback, if they want it. If they want it, I try to be as specific as possible and explain why I think something doesn't work/make sense/etc., and try to offer something they could do. Seriously, ask JAM. She'll tell you how much I get into critique. On the other hand, if they don't want it, fine. It sounds harsh, but if someone doesn't want an honest opinion or help, I don't want to waste my time.

Though one thing I've learned in life is that while people may say they want your honest opinion, they rarely actually do. :/

[Fawn]

As Voight-Kampff said, EVNs are treated like handicapped children often... And I think it's because of these reasons:

1. As mentioned before, people are way too nice, but for a reason- They don't want to offend others and start drama. This says that many EVN creators are not mature enough to handle critique, so obviously they'd be treated with that maturity level.

2. It doesn't seem like many creators sit down, look their game in the eye and say "Does this suck?" and, subsequently "If it does suck, what can I do to make it better?" then, take the actions to make it not suck by getting honest feedback, improving their writing, hiring an artist, ect.

3. Creators refusing to think that their game will be compared to bigger, better games and not trying to shoot for the utmost quality. That's practically asking for people to treat you like a baby.

4. Creators not considering their audience and expecting people to like their game. This ties into #2 a little, creators don't seem to take an outside look at their work and say "If I knew nothing about this game and I was playing it for the first time, what would I think about the quality? What seems off in this game?" It might be exactly how you like it, but, don't expect others to like it because of that...

5. Creators not trying to emulate current visual novel/ADV trends in order to be "unique". It's simple logic, people play VNs because they like the features that are in bigger name titles. If you don't even try to provide those features because you need to be special, your game is most likely not going to be enjoyable to the masses.

If you're just doing VNs for fun and don't care about making something quality then don't expect your game to be treated nicely... People will always compare your game to something else and want more from it.

My final opinion is that yes, most of us are still babies in the VN/ADV world- so, like babies, we should start by emulating the things the big kids are doing to our best ability to say "Hey, we don't suck!"

[fleet]

Re: You ever worry your work won't be taken seriously?

No. It's not meant to be taken seriously.

[Glasskitten]

This topic describes precisely what I worry about when I'm not worrying about getting my wonderfultastic projects done in the first place.
(I've wondered about finding distribution channels where people might be less knee-jerk dismissive, possibly due to reduced familiarity with creepy eroge. "Hey, check out my...uh...digital multimedia manga-styled choose-your-own-adventure thingy!" Maybe I can just throw it at all my little Facebook friends and ask them to pass it along if they like it...
Now that I think about it, I hope that if someone's first exposure to visual novels is something I wrote, they won't get stuck thinking the entire medium is weirder than creepy eroge...)

[LateWhiteRabbit]

I totally agree with what you're saying, though. As an artist, I want to people to tell me how I can do better, not just "oooh pretty!" It's part of the reason I can't seem to get myself to upload anything to my Deviantart anymore. There's just no motivation for me to post anything there anymore; the initial high-school ego-boost of having random people tell me how good I am wore off ages ago.

I understand. That's a large part of why I don't post any of my art except on the boards frequented by industry professionals. I got too used to the razor-sharp criticisms at art school and the studios I worked at, and missed that with other people (non-artists) or amateurs blindly saying my stuff looks awesome. You're right, it's an ego-boost, but that's all it is, and eventually that wears thin. You start feeling like they are lying to you, because YOU can see your work has problems, and even non-artists should be able to compare a piece of art with other great art they have seen and tell if one of them isn't up to par.

I miss my instructors, one of whom was an illustrator at Disney for years. I could turn in a drawing or illustration, and it could be better than a majority of the classes', but the instructor would tell me it was unacceptable, dock my grade, and tell me to do it over. Because it wasn't the best I could do, and they knew it. I was called on not putting forth the max effort, even if that effort was above most other students in the class. That would make some people upset, or cause the immature to throw a fit, but I cherished it, because it was doing me a service. They didn't care how good I was. They wanted better.

As Voight-Kampff said, EVNs are treated like handicapped children often... And I think it's because of these reasons:

1. As mentioned before, people are way too nice, but for a reason- They don't want to offend others and start drama. This says that many EVN creators are not mature enough to handle critique, so obviously they'd be treated with that maturity level.

2. It doesn't seem like many creators sit down, look their game in the eye and say "Does this suck?" and, subsequently "If it does suck, what can I do to make it better?" then, take the actions to make it not suck by getting honest feedback, improving their writing, hiring an artist, ect.

3. Creators refusing to think that their game will be compared to bigger, better games and not trying to shoot for the utmost quality. That's practically asking for people to treat you like a baby.

4. Creators not considering their audience and expecting people to like their game. This ties into #2 a little, creators don't seem to take an outside look at their work and say "If I knew nothing about this game and I was playing it for the first time, what would I think about the quality? What seems off in this game?" It might be exactly how you like it, but, don't expect others to like it because of that...

5. Creators not trying to emulate current visual novel/ADV trends in order to be "unique". It's simple logic, people play VNs because they like the features that are in bigger name titles. If you don't even try to provide those features because you need to be special, your game is most likely not going to be enjoyable to the masses.

If you're just doing VNs for fun and don't care about making something quality then don't expect your game to be treated nicely... People will always compare your game to something else and want more from it.

My final opinion is that yes, most of us are still babies in the VN/ADV world- so, like babies, we should start by emulating the things the big kids are doing to our best ability to say "Hey, we don't suck!"

1 I agree. That is the main thing I see here. Being nice is, well, nice, but you don't have to be mean to give constructive criticism. But like you say, sometimes the maturity level isn't there and any criticism is seen as an attack.

2 Being self-aware is very important. I am always flabbergasted by people apparently blind to any faults in their work. I am acutely aware of every flaw in my own work - sometimes it has to remain for budget or time reasons, but I know it's there and will gladly acknowledge it if it is pointed out. Mostly though, I'm not sure a lot of amateur artists know how professional art works. By that, I mean they look at a professional piece of art and compare it to their own drawing they spent 8 hours on and wonder at the magical talent and abilities of the professional artist, without realizing the main difference between amateur and professional art is time and attention to detail. That professional artist may have spent 8 hours or more a DAY for a WEEK to produce that art, and if something was wrong in the middle, they would stop and correct it, or even, gasp, START over. I've worked as a professional artist for a couple of years now, but I still draw crappy drawings all the time. I just don't leave them at that. I redo them, I throw them away. I don't stop until it looks good and professional.

3 Exactly. Some of the best advice I ever got was- "You aren't allowed to make excuses for your work." Not just because that's distasteful, but because you will not always be there to stand over the player or viewer's shoulder and explain yourself or your intentions, or your limitations. Your work or game must stand on its own, with no input from you. The time you get for talking and expressing yourself is when making the game or art, you have to build it all in from the ground up.

4 This is more a commercial consideration than for those that do it purely as hobby, but it is good for everyone to keep in mind. You may really enjoy amorphous aliens that speak using math equations and cooking contests, but don't be surprised when other people's opinions differ from your own.

5 I often think this is more excuse than anything. Let's be honest here, emulating the "big boys" in the VN genre is NOT HARD. Voice acting is the only thing they do that could be prohibitively more expensive for indies to do themselves. (Good voice acting - which, honestly, I'm not sure how many of the "big boys" accomplish either. Talent and sound studio time cost money.) Most of the "big companies" we think of from Japan are INDIES THEMSELVES in all but name. I forget which company it was, but one of them was literally 3 guys working out of a 2 room apartment . . . that one of them lived in.

We not only need to emulate the "professionals" of the VN world, we need to surpass them, because, as I mentioned in my last post, a lot of them have worse gameplay than VN games 20 years old. The very first 'VN' I played was True Love '95. It's technically a life sim, but here in the West we group all those genres together into "VN" so games with different gameplay are compared against each other (to negative effect). Anyway, that is STILL one of the best VNs I have played. The only word I have for that is "sad". For those old enough, think back to 20 years ago. When you were playing VNs, if someone had told you that in the future, over a decade into the 21st century, these games would still be exactly the same and maybe even slightly worse than the game you were currently playing on your 33 mHz processor, 4MB RAM, and 340 MB Harddisk PC, wouldn't you be angry or shocked?

[Voight-Kampff]

We not only need to emulate the "professionals" of the VN world, we need to surpass them, because, as I mentioned in my last post, a lot of them have worse gameplay than VN games 20 years old. The very first 'VN' I played was True Love '95. It's technically a life sim, but here in the West we group all those genres together into "VN" so games with different gameplay are compared against each other (to negative effect). Anyway, that is STILL one of the best VNs I have played. The only word I have for that is "sad". For those old enough, think back to 20 years ago. When you were playing VNs, if someone had told you that in the future, over a decade into the 21st century, these games would still be exactly the same and maybe even slightly worse than the game you were currently playing on your 33 mHz processor, 4MB RAM, and 340 MB Harddisk PC, wouldn't you be angry or shocked?

That's another reason why I like to harp on an iOS port for Ren'Py. Although, for now, I'd be thrilled just to get a solid Android port.

While my primary assertion is that VNs don't necessarily need a complex control scheme—which a tablet can easily accommodate—imagine utilizing the accelerometer in a tablet during a fight sequence in a story. Gotta shake it hard enough, otherwise it's a bad end. Or maybe incorporating the light sensor to decide what time of day you're actually playing the game, and the backgrounds would change to match (e.g. if you're playing in low light, it assumes it's night, and displays night time backgrounds). Or perhaps incorporating the mic—you need to yell in order to get the attention of of a girl across a crowded room. And it can go on like that. Ah, but I digress.

[Fawn]

@Glasskitten: I completely understand that feeling... I really want to share my work with my facebook friends too but I feel like if I post anything they'll say "is this anime porn?" before even playing the game =v=; I'm just going to call my games Story-based Adventure Games from now on...

@Voight-Kampff, Dear goodness those features sound amazing, drool-worthy even! My family just got a Kindle fire too, it would be so sweet to play VNs/ADVs on it...