You ever worry your work won't be taken seriously?

[papillon]

I'm not sure what good a lot of nebulous complaining that people aren't trying hard enough is meant to do, though. Anyone reading who does feel that they're trying may feel put-upon, people who really don't care will ignore it and not improve, and people who feel that there's a lot of unfair hatred of EVNs will see this as yet more sign of vague hatred of everyone.

Vague hatred of everyone is just as demoralising as vapid cheerleading of everyone. If your half-assed attempt is coddled, you have no reason to improve. If your hard work is dismissed as "obviously didn't care", you have no reason to keep trying.

This is a "nice" forum and nobody wants to name names and give serious critique and comparison and sound like a jerk here and start a flamewar. Fine. Please post that detailed critique and comparison somewhere that isn't here (and link to it so people who WANT to read it can!), and please DON'T make vague "Nobody's trying!" posts.

[sake-bento]

Haha, compared to my other job (voice acting for dubbed anime which everyone seems to hate with a passion), I think people take my work writing EVNs much more seriously. In fact, I've had a lot of people give valid critiques of my work, often coupled with stating that they expect a lot out of me (and sakevisual), which is why they're willing to point out flaws.

I think it's not too different from the realm of webcomics. Most are beginner works and as such we don't expect too much from them, but that doesn't mean that we won't take one seriously if it's well done.

[LateWhiteRabbit]

I'm not sure what good a lot of nebulous complaining that people aren't trying hard enough is meant to do, though. Anyone reading who does feel that they're trying may feel put-upon, people who really don't care will ignore it and not improve, and people who feel that there's a lot of unfair hatred of EVNs will see this as yet more sign of vague hatred of everyone.

Vague hatred of everyone is just as demoralising as vapid cheerleading of everyone. If your half-assed attempt is coddled, you have no reason to improve. If your hard work is dismissed as "obviously didn't care", you have no reason to keep trying.

This is a "nice" forum and nobody wants to name names and give serious critique and comparison and sound like a jerk here and start a flamewar. Fine. Please post that detailed critique and comparison somewhere that isn't here (and link to it so people who WANT to read it can!), and please DON'T make vague "Nobody's trying!" posts.

I didn't mean any of my posts to come off as "nobody is trying". I'm sorry if they did. I assume anyone who has put forth the effort to make a game and release is trying and cares.

Though, I concede, I'm not sure what this discussion is going to accomplish. It just seems that several members like you, Jack, myself, and others that work to commercially release games are operating on different concerns than others here that only do it as a hobby. I guess my whole take on this topic has been - "what can we do to make our genre more commercially viable".

As for critiques, I never give them unless they are specifically asked for, like when Jack wanted feedback on Heileen. There is too much worry about stepping on people's toes and hurting feelings otherwise. Too often when people say they want "feedback" they don't really want to hear criticisms, only praise.

I'm just used to boards where like minded hobbyists and professionals work to push and improve each other. Look at Polycount, where the posts are very civil and nice, but also largely constructive and critiquing - it is populated by game industry and 3D professionals. Or Gutterzombie, where comic colorists from DC, Marvel, and freelance employment share tips, compete with one another and do critiques - still very nice and civil. Both boards hold contests and competitions and judge work, but both are also very nice to amateurs and beginners willing to listen, patiently giving advice and tips, or even doing detailed break downs or paint-overs of work to instruct. They aren't mean even to the beginners that refuse to take advice or are defensive - they just stop replying to them.

Again - I believe everyone here is trying. I enjoy the community. I only write what I do because I do worry about the genre being taken seriously sometimes, and I would love for us all to do better. Dismissing hard work is always bad, and I would never suggest that. I only know how inspiring it is to see your work grow and flourish because others wouldn't let you stay in a comfort zone.

[Voight-Kampff]

I think part of the issue is that there's no clearly defined goal around here which people can strive towards.

I used to run a forum dedicated to Tokyopop's Rising Stars of Manga series. I encouraged past winners to join, which they did. They in turn attracted others who aspired to get published in RSoM. Because of that goal—to get published by Tokyopop—it brought in a lot of talented people. It also brought in a lot of beginners.

Beginners were, generally, encouraged. But in no uncertain terms would people falsely inflate their egos and make them think that they could win the next contest, when in fact, it might be obvious that they needed years more schooling and practice.

The point is, that clearly defined and fairly objective goal set a precedent. People could point to that first RSoM volume of work and say to themselves, "I need to match or beat that". Thus, the bar was set for the quality of work which permeated the forum.

With visual novels, with EVNs, with the general crowd that hangs around LSF, there is no such goal to strive towards. Should someone try to make a game to match or beat Fading Hearts? Maybe Bionic Heart? Maybe Fate/Stay Night? Who's to say?

I don't have an answer to that problem, but I do think that's it's at least part of the problem.

EDIT: And I see LWR has a similar anecdote from his experience with American comicer forums.

[Omnificent]

I'll be honest, I think that commercial VNs could afford to take more chances with their storyline. I could play Generic Dating Sim for free in plenty of places, but use that budget to make epic fight scenes and bigger, better-crafted stories and I'm in. I would love to see someone with a bigger budget do something ambitious.

But yeah, everyone's here for a different reason. Some want to make money, some want to get more exposure, some want to champion such-and-such genre, some want to date cute 2d drawings, some just want to write a story. It's important to recognize this diversity if the community as a whole wants to continue to grow.

[LateWhiteRabbit]

I think part of the issue is that there's no clearly defined goal around here which people can strive towards.

snip

EDIT: And I see LWR has a similar anecdote from his experience with American comicer forums.

Actually, I guess that is exactly the heart of the problem I've been trying to articulate. We have no standard to judge ourselves by, no goal marker to look at and say - hey, I'm getting close! Or at least, I'm closer than I was yesterday.

Everytime I go to Polycount, I can look at certain artists, or the featured art and go - "Oh, man! I'd better up my game. I thought I was doing good, but THAT'S where I should be." No one says you have to do that overnight, but I've seen rank amateurs on Polycount go from beginners to jobs in the industry in a year. Because they were pushed everyday. They came on and said - "I want to be a game artist. Help me." and posted their work and got feedback everyday. They made corrections, and each piece was better than the last. And I think a large part of it was as Voight-Kampff said - they had a yardstick to measure their progress by. "Is my art as good as this? No? Well, let's keep working at it."

If you go on Polycount you'll see a lot of posts to the effect of - "It is amazing to see the progress you've made in the last six months! Your work has improved tremendously! Oh, and by the way, you're baking your normal maps wrong, and I see a seam in your texture."

(Now, if only I could get more work done - here I am with time off and I'm posting on messageboards and playing Cute Knight - I blame you, Papillon! )

[sake-bento]

I've seen people here specifically ask for no critiques because they're just doing this "for fun" or they only want to do it as a hobby. Since this board started as a hobby board, I treat it as such, and I assume that anyone looking for feedback will ask for it. It's sort of like deviantART. There are professionals there, and some good advice is traded back and forth, but it's mostly kids posting their drawings for fun.

[Mink]

Polycount

I looked at that website and it, like Concerptart.org, makes me want to quit art forever and do something else. 8C

And maybe because I welcome critique is why I don't get people not wanting it at all. How do you improve if no one ever tells you anything beside, "That's great!" Yeah, it's nice to hear, but it doesn't really help you any more than if my choir teacher had said, "It's okay, you guys!" if we were doing badly as a whole.

Note: my choir teacher had no qualms telling us if we were sucking.

[sake-bento]

Not everyone is here to "get better." It's not that they're satisfied with mediocrity or anything, but they just want to kick back and have fun. I have plenty of friends who love playing basketball. None of them have any dreams of going pro, or even getting "better." They simply play casual matches with each other because they enjoy it. If some coach goes out there and points out their flaws or sets up a regimen for them to get stronger, faster, or whatever, that ruins the fun. It's not a fun game anymore. It would also be silly to say that they're NOT improving. Merely playing the game every day makes them get a little bit better each time. They just don't care about being "better." They care about enjoying themselves.

I also have friends who are dead serious about the game, and they work hard to be better every day. One day they might even go pro. I work under the assumption (possibly false?) that anyone who wants feedback will ASK for it. Just like any serious artist will sign up for a more "serious" art site like ConceptArt.org instead of forever hanging around dA.

[Mirage]

lol, I remember when I released OASE, someone told me that he'd rather buy Kingdom Heart (whatever new KH that's out at that time.) At this point, I donno whether he's trying to imply that he likes KH much better (but how do he know if he hasn't played both games?) or that I'm not Squarenix, thus I'm automatically inferior.

I used reasoning that I don't have budget of 100+ people, and my group consists of nothing but 2 people. And then, later on, I read a forum of someone laughing at the statement I made. Saying that it doesn't matter what's behind the game. What matters is the game itself.

At this point, I find a huge dilemma. I always strive to become better with my next game. I want to defeat AAA title someday, but with only 2 people, how can you do it? You gotta be delusional if you think 2 people can match a work of 100+ people. Sure, there are exception to rules, and I have played games I like better made by fewer people than 100+ people. But if "I" said I could do that, I just sound like a delusional person with too much ego.

So my question is, who are we trying to match here? The best the world has to offer? Or the best indie games in the world has to offer? Some people here said that they don't like to be treated as handicap, but we ARE in handicap. We don't have the budget of AAA titles!

[sake-bento]

lol, I remember when I released OASE, someone told me that he'd rather buy Kingdom Heart (whatever new KH that's out at that time.) At this point, I donno whether he's trying to imply that he likes KH much better (but how do he know if he hasn't played both games?) or that I'm not Squarenix, thus I'm automatically inferior.

I used reasoning that I don't have budget of 100+ people, and my group consists of nothing but 2 people. And then, later on, I read a forum of someone laughing at the statement I made. Saying that it doesn't matter what's behind the game. What matters is the game itself.

At this point, I find a huge dilemma. I always strive to become better with my next game. I want to defeat AAA title someday, but with only 2 people, how can you do it? You gotta be delusional if you think 2 people can match a work of 100+ people. Sure, there are exception to rules, and I have played games I like better made by fewer people than 100+ people. But if "I" said I could do that, I just sound like a delusional person with too much ego.

So my question is, who are we trying to match here? The best the world has to offer? Or the best indie games in the world has to offer? Some people here said that they don't like to be treated as handicap, but we ARE in handicap. We don't have the budget of AAA titles!

Well, that's a little bit of a silly comparison to make, because you're not charging the same price as Kingdom Hearts. Yes, the game matters. But the price matters, too. You're not charging $60, so I don't see why people expect it to be equal to a $60 game. Likewise, it depends on your target audience. Some people pay $20 for a children's book made up of five cardboard pages where all you do is count ducks. I'd rather spend my $20 on the next volume of The Dresden Files, since it has things like plot and lots of words. Somehow, I doubt that kids would enjoy it quite as much as I do, though.

If you're selling games, then yes you should take criticism into account. It's par for the course. But I think that regardless of how many people are on the team or the size of the budget, what matters is how much the game is enjoyed. Case in point: Minecraft. One dude. People love it. If someone says they'd rather buy Kingdom Hearts and it also means they'd rather spent $45 more dollars than on your game, then so be it. But I don't think it means we have a handicap. It just means that we have to find other ways to make our games enjoyable that don't include a high poly count.

[LateWhiteRabbit]

At this point, I find a huge dilemma. I always strive to become better with my next game. I want to defeat AAA title someday, but with only 2 people, how can you do it? You gotta be delusional if you think 2 people can match a work of 100+ people. Sure, there are exception to rules, and I have played games I like better made by fewer people than 100+ people. But if "I" said I could do that, I just sound like a delusional person with too much ego.

So my question is, who are we trying to match here? The best the world has to offer? Or the best indie games in the world has to offer? Some people here said that they don't like to be treated as handicap, but we ARE in handicap. We don't have the budget of AAA titles!

No, that's the beauty of the VN scene at the moment. We don't have to compete with any AAA titles with budgets in the millions. We are making games for a niche group of gamers that the big developers don't cater to. Look at Braid, Super Meat Boy, or you know, the best example - Minecraft. Not VNs, but they offered something gamers couldn't get anywhere else, something special and unique, and audiences responded. None of those games had the budget of AAA titles.

The games being made by some members on those board are not far below the major "official" VNs being made in quality. That's kind of my big spaz - I see the quality on offer from the "big" companies like Jast and Peach and know we could surpass them with a little concerted effort. In fact, a lot of the gameplay on offer from here is better than what the big companies are offering - they just have the shiny graphics and spit-shine polish. We have better stories here in a lot of cases. We have the better gameplay. All a lot of games here lack is that production level art and interface. (And some are getting very close.)

I wouldn't be discouraged as an indie game maker in this genre AT ALL. In other areas of gaming, trying to match the top dogs in terms of art or graphics is a doomed effort, far, far, too expensive to compete with. But in the VN field? A production quality sprite set doesn't cost near as much (by an order of magnitude) as a game ready 3D model for the PS3 for example. Some of us don't even have to pay money for art since we do that for a living (like myself). So all it takes is time.

"Build it and they will come" as they say. If you focus on making great games that people can't get anywhere else, you'll do fine.

[Auro-Cyanide]

I think it really comes down to what people personally want to achieve. If people are just using it as a hobby, then their goals are probably not so lofty. At the same time, they can't expect to get the same recognition as someone who has worked far more seriously. They could of course, but they can't automatically assume it.

If your game lacks the art or the GUI, does it make it a bad game? No. Does it mean it could be better? Yes. The question is, do you want it to be? The higher quality games have had time, effort and money expended on them, that is why the are good. These qualities did not appear out of thin air. At some point someone, or lots of people, worked very, very hard to create what they did. And they deserve more praise because of it. That is simple. If you are not willing to put in the same effort/money/time to balance what they did, either expending more time than they did to compensate for their money, or more effort to compensate for their more people, then how can you expect your game to be as good? If you are pretty happy with were you are, that's great. But if you want to be were the better games are, or closer to them, then you are probably going to have to work at it.

I look at the artists that are better than me and decide I want to be closer to their level, so I can achieve what they can do. I can't just expect it to happen over night. I have to work hard, I have to study and practice and most importantly, I have to give it time. My art will be compared to theirs, and that's okay. Because I look back at my old work and I see how my efforts have made me improved. I know that in me there is the potential to get to where I want to be. In the meantime, people still enjoy my art. It might not be as many people as the bigger artists, but it still can make some people happy, it can still allow me to express my ideas.

Of course, none of us are ever going to reach a level of Square Enix. Apples and Oranges doesn't even come close to explaining that one. And that's okay because we still have the potential to make games people will enjoy, still have the potential to entertain and tell stories and do it well. There is always that little further we can go, always that little bit better. Which is great, it's the fun of the journey and growth that makes it enjoyable.

[Sapphi]

I work under the assumption (possibly false?) that anyone who wants feedback will ASK for it. Just like any serious artist will sign up for a more "serious" art site like ConceptArt.org instead of forever hanging around dA.

Generally that is the case... except I can think of a tiny exception. If you really want critique, like "I think you should work on your proportions" or "The font clashes with the GUI" or "The color scheme is unappealing" or "This character's actions make no sense" then sometimes you have to specify, "CRITIQUE ENCOURAGED" just like on DeviantArt. However...

If people comment with more opinion-based issues, and you explain that you're not going to change in that area because it's how you wanted it, there is the risk they will say, "Well you wanted critique and now you're not taking it, why did I even waste my time, etc" and you'll look stupid because you're "explaining away" the critique you asked for (even if it's not of the sort you were looking for).

For instance, I am loath to post my story ideas asking for feedback because while I might get some good suggestions, I also might get suggestions that if implemented would change it significantly to be more compatible with those commenters' interests and less with my vision for the story. I don't want people to feel like I am throwing away their feedback, that it was a wasted effort, which is why I guess it's easier to just hope someone comes by and throws in their two cents without being prodded. At least then I have a better justification for not taking their advice. You know?

[DaFool]

The general indie scene is still more reliant on low--res pixel art... where it's a little hard to determine which were made by professionals and which were not. A high definition drawing, on the other hand, is easier to spot flaws in.

I also received crap work from people who claim to be professional and charging professional prices, but did not deliver professionally. Which make me regret not just hiring the amateur on deviantart only charging ten bucks. Some people work with me not because I'm a professional or deliver professional results, but merely because of my professional attitude. Yes I'm still human and will occasionally rant and rave, but in the end, I'm in it to get things done, and thats all that matters at the end of the day.

As has been acknowledged, everyone's goals are different. My goal is to achieve the most efficient means of outputting product at a higher quality (i.e. production value) but at a cheaper price (less time and/or money spent on it). I really hate it when I read this team or that discarding tons of work, the scraps from which I can probably put together a complete project from. To me, it's just wasting people's time, especially for those who only have around two hours an evening for free time (anything more usually cuts into the sleeping schedule). What I would do is publish, but find a more efficient workflow for the next project.

You're right about not needing to have to make excuses for your work. Perhaps that's something I can usually feature under the heading "Known Bugs or Deficiencies". Things which you agree you can improve on but you just don't have the time for it, and in your opinion as the creator, will provide diminishing return as compared to improving another aspect of the project.

While I applaud LateWhiteRabbit's goal to push and legitimize the medium into the mainstream with higher quality work, his efforts may resemble that of MoaCubes in terms of philosophy. That's great, but not a direction I'm going for either. If I had the chance to work on Full Metal Alchemist or Freezing? I'd work on Freezing in a heatbeat. There's just something amusing about how many projects in Japan would have never been green lighted in the West.

Working with Disney animators would be a dream for me, but what sometimes what ends up happening is you're working on Spongebob Squarepants or Ren and Stimpy instead. It's not some piece you can usually display in the Impressionism section of your art museum, but oftentime it takes the same amount of work to produce. I often see anime with shitty character design but that's because the original manga had that design so you have to preserve it.

So good luck and godspeed, I'll be waiting here in the shovelware department (I'm not even saying this sarcastically or meant to insult, it's surprisingly the truth).