You ever worry your work won't be taken seriously?

[Mink]

@Sapphi: Well, it's not like you can't just not take the advice. :/ Yeah, some people would get annoyed, but hey, it's an opinion. There's a difference between that and, say, a glaring plothole.

Sapphi, every time you post something in reference to your game, I become intrigued. 8|

Not everyone is here to "get better." It's not that they're satisfied with mediocrity or anything, but they just want to kick back and have fun. I have plenty of friends who love playing basketball. None of them have any dreams of going pro, or even getting "better." They simply play casual matches with each other because they enjoy it. If some coach goes out there and points out their flaws or sets up a regimen for them to get stronger, faster, or whatever, that ruins the fun. It's not a fun game anymore. It would also be silly to say that they're NOT improving. Merely playing the game every day makes them get a little bit better each time. They just don't care about being "better." They care about enjoying themselves.

Eh, I just think you'd improve faster if someone went, "Hey, your ____ is off.", but fair enough.

[Mirage]

But I don't think it means we have a handicap. It just means that we have to find other ways to make our games enjoyable that don't include a high poly count.

Handicap can mean many. In this case, let say, we can hire professional artists, voice actors, writers, musician, the list goes on. Sure, I can get the other way around to compensate it, but the fact is still there - if this is a chess match, I only have the king and the rook compared to high profile company with the entire chess pieces set. Can I win against them? Sure, some people out there are genius enough to defeat opponents of that caliber with merely a couple pieces. But a handicap is a handicap. The outcome is irrelevant.

No, that's the beauty of the VN scene at the moment. We don't have to compete with any AAA titles with budgets in the millions. We are making games for a niche group of gamers that the big developers don't cater to.

Of course, why else I'm making VN now? The fact it's feasible for me to do a one man show is the reason why I'm on board to begin with. If I can win against AAA title, it makes winning even sweeter.

[Sapphi]

@Sapphi: Well, it's not like you can't just not take the advice. :/ Yeah, some people would get annoyed, but hey, it's an opinion. There's a difference between that and, say, a glaring plothole.

Sapphi, every time you post something in reference to your game, I become intrigued. 8|

True, but if people care enough to give me a thoughtful comment I feel like they deserve a thoughtful reply. And then, my choices are either:
1. Be very polite and agree, which could lead them to think I am going to change the thing they don't like (causing confusion/hurt feelings upon project release)
or
2. Be honest and tell them I am not going to change said thing, which could lead them to be upset that I am deflecting their critique if they really think it is a flaw.

Maybe I'm overthinking it... but critique is a scary world to me. You have the creators who ask for critique and then argue every single tiny point of it away, and then you have commenters who think that all of their opinions are fact and get angry when you don't want to take them as such. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't want to be the former and I don't want to encounter the latter

I'm assuming you're referring to my Super Secret WIP Kinetic Novel. If so, YESSSSSSSS SOMEBODY IS ALREADY INTERESTED YESSSSSSSSS and when I get finished with the Pet Project I am planning to make a WIP thread for it because I've been developing the story since December 2010 and it is bursting at the seams to get out!

[LateWhiteRabbit]

@Sapphi: Well, it's not like you can't just not take the advice. :/ Yeah, some people would get annoyed, but hey, it's an opinion. There's a difference between that and, say, a glaring plothole.

Sapphi, every time you post something in reference to your game, I become intrigued. 8|

True, but if people care enough to give me a thoughtful comment I feel like they deserve a thoughtful reply. And then, my choices are either:
1. Be very polite and agree, which could lead them to think I am going to change the thing they don't like (causing confusion/hurt feelings upon project release)
or
2. Be honest and tell them I am not going to change said thing, which could lead them to be upset that I am deflecting their critique if they really think it is a flaw.

Maybe I'm overthinking it... but critique is a scary world to me. You have the creators who ask for critique and then argue every single tiny point of it away, and then you have commenters who think that all of their opinions are fact and get angry when you don't want to take them as such. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't want to be the former and I don't want to encounter the latter

I'm assuming you're referring to my Super Secret WIP Kinetic Novel. If so, YESSSSSSSS SOMEBODY IS ALREADY INTERESTED YESSSSSSSSS and when I get finished with the Pet Project I am planning to make a WIP thread for it because I've been developing the story since December 2010 and it is bursting at the seams to get out!

Always be honest.

Giving good criticism is as much a skill as taking it. And frankly, if something is subjective or opinion - that's not a valid point to give a constructive critique on. For example, someone could critique how you are delivering information in your story, or how you are writing it, but not your actual plot points - because that is a subjective call. I'm not a fan of moe-blob or school stories, but that doesn't give me the right to critique that as a choice - all I could do if asked for feedback would be to let you know if your ideas were or were not getting across clearly.

And if someone is going to get upset you didn't accept their personal subjective opinion and put it into the final release? Then they have a narcissistic attitude and were waiting for something to offend them anyway!

(Love that tiny little sentence of energy by the way . . . .)

[Blue Lemma]

I say if you want harsh criticism, go to Megatokyo or 4chan. They'll be happy to give you all you can handle

No creative work will ever get universal praise. You can please some of the people some of the time, but it's impossible to please *all* of the people some of the time, much less all of the time.

This is why when it comes to hobbies, you should just work to please yourself

[Strum]

Are EVNs really just all lumped together and viewed as beginner fluff? Are people expecting EVNs to be filled with creative commons music and sprites, or worse, lifted sprites and music from other "real" VNs?

I think the answer is "yes - but".

If you go on to games.renpy.org, and pick a random game off the list, chances are it will _be_ beginner fluff. So to that extent, there's the perception and the reality. What we're seeing, though, is that some of the games break through this. People are like "EVNs aren't good, but Cradle Song/Katawa Shoujo/DTIPB/re:Alistair/etc is really good".

Perhaps adjusting the games shown on games.renpy.org to only randomly choose from the finest OELVN works might change people's opinions but as long as people only see fluff they will always believe OELVNs are fluff.

[PyTom]

Perhaps adjusting the games shown on games.renpy.org to only randomly choose from the finest OELVN works might change people's opinions but as long as people only see fluff they will always believe OELVNs are fluff.

Maybe - but then I'd have to start making value judgements about the games - which I don't really want to be doing. It's hard enough for me to pick two feature games every six months or so.

Once I get our new server up, I may rewrite games.renpy.org to have some sort of starring system.

[applegirl]

Hmm...I do feel like there are quite a few amazing OLEVN that challenge a lot of assumptions. But I do think that they are mostly (if not all) commercial. Besides Re:allistar and maybe Shock Coccoon, the OLEVNs that made my jaw drop all cost money. And lets admit it, it's easier for people to play the free ones and think that a hastily put together VN is representative of all OLEVN. I used to think that before discovering the hidden good ones. I also think people don't realize that one negative remark usually requires a lot more positive compliments to make up for it. Honestly, I hate leaving no comment on some threads but there are some VNs that I can't find anything nice to point out (besides apparent effort). It is a double edged sword, we usually compare what we see to the best. And I'll be honest, after reading 50+ VNs from both here and those made by japan...I've got high standards. If a lot of these are made by kids, maybe we can have the gloves on. But if we want to compare to the best...well, then things get complicated.

[Strum]

This topic seems very familiar, and then I remembered. http://forums.novelnews.net/showthread.php?t=35926 This is what the Gemot community thinks of OELVNs, and the people who make them ie YOU.

This brings back memories, if you're a sensitive OELVN developer, you may want to stay clear as some of the comments made can be pretty brutal. Even respected commercial OELVN developers aren't spared.

If you're a freelance artist, you might want to stay clear also.

[applegirl]

Haha, that is a good thread. They really don't hold back their critiques either, but I think that is the point is being taking seriously. The vicious comments are when people hold your work to a high standard and honestly, I'd rather get that than being patronized. But I think a lot of OLEVN makers would probably prefer no comments to such harsh critique...although that sounds kind of harsh. I say that from experience though...the last time I was more honest, I had the visual novel maker argue each point. I do understand defending the work, but I think sometimes you have to accept that not everyone is going to like it. It's not a big deal if it is free, but paying for something kinda denotes quality level. However, we have a lot of artists on deviantart who should NOT be charging for their work (really terrible art that makes my eyes bleed yet somehow get charged outrageous money...) but what can you do? It's a minefield and only the best can have their work taken seriously.

[KomiTsuku]

Haha, that is a good thread. They really don't hold back their critiques either, but I think that is the point is being taking seriously. The vicious comments are when people hold your work to a high standard and honestly, I'd rather get that than being patronized. But I think a lot of OLEVN makers would probably prefer no comments to such harsh critique...although that sounds kind of harsh. I say that from experience though...the last time I was more honest, I had the visual novel maker argue each point. I do understand defending the work, but I think sometimes you have to accept that not everyone is going to like it. It's not a big deal if it is free, but paying for something kinda denotes quality level. However, we have a lot of artists on deviantart who should NOT be charging for their work (really terrible art that makes my eyes bleed yet somehow get charged outrageous money...) but what can you do? It's a minefield and only the best can have their work taken seriously.

Actually, it is because I'm an old man who loves to argue. Nothing personal. (Except for the newgrounds comment. I took that pretty personal.) I might be angsty, but that's because I can. Do you really think I'd survive in the military if I was as angsty IRL as I act online? Personally, I love to hear harsh comments. I react dramatically (gotta keep up appearances), but in private I consider them to be the greatest tools to tweaking future works.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, that linked forum is making me laugh. It is by far the funniest thing I've read in a while. They are arguing a catch 22. "If we are going to pay, we expect quality. We aren't paying, so there is no money to improve quality. Why is there no quality?" How many people are stupid enough to start investing into commercial grade works in non-Japan markets when there is no profits? How many people say, "I've got too much perfectly good money, let's go try making visual novels when everyone will just lump it into one big pile?" Not too many. That's going to naturally decrease the amount of talent in the pool. You can make money in the Japanese market. The rest of the world is making do with the scraps we can scrounge up. Want better games? Invest into one yourself. There's only so much a non-artist can do when a "cheap" CG costs $50 each.

Which brings me back to the original topic! I worry about it pretty consistently. There's no point in investing into improving quality when the danger of being ignored or compared to Japan are high enough to shoot down your operation. God knows what I'm going to do if I hear someone compare "Rising Angels" to "Katawa Shojo" one more time... I'm not saying that it was a bad game, but it isn't the OMFG standard of OELVN. Every time I hear a comparison to that game, I just want to reach through my computer and slap the poster. To sum up my feelings, I hate Japan.

[Mink]

You know what? I'll say what I've been wanting to for the longest: Katawa Shoujo is almost entirely overrated. (Explaining why I think so would be TL;DR) Great, I'm glad I got that off my chest.

Moving right along: saying 'I hate Japan' sounds kind of extreme. Yes, there will be, as I said before, people who will disregard something by virtue of it being Not Japanese. Fine, I don't care about those people, because the equivalent would be me doing this:

I like superhero shows and comics, which is more or less an American concept. Japan made an anime about superheroes called Tiger and Bunny. Tiger and Bunny will never be as good as something like Batman: TAS or Superman: TAS, because Tiger and Bunny is Not American.

See how stupid that sounds? Legit critique, fine. But who cares about people who act like Japan is a magical country that can do no wrong and everything they make is golden?

^This is not a knock at Japan; I got plenty of love for Japan. This is about weaboos.

[KomiTsuku]

You know what? I'll say what I've been wanting to for the longest: Katawa Shoujo is almost entirely overrated. (Explaining why I think so would be TL;DR) Great, I'm glad I got that off my chest.

Moving right along: saying 'I hate Japan' sounds kind of extreme. Yes, there will be, as I said before, people who will disregard something by virtue of it being Not Japanese. Fine, I don't care about those people, because the equivalent would be me doing this:

I like superhero shows and comics, which is more or less an American concept. Japan made an anime about superheroes called Tiger and Bunny. Tiger and Bunny will never be as good as something like Batman: TAS or Superman: TAS, because Tiger and Bunny is Not American.

See how stupid that sounds? Legit critique, fine. But who cares about people who act like Japan is a magical country that can do no wrong and everything they make is golden?

^This is not a knock at Japan; I got plenty of love for Japan. This is about weaboos.

Ah, forgive me. My anger is more at the weaboo than Japan.

[Voight-Kampff]

This topic seems very familiar, and then I remembered. http://forums.novelnews.net/showthread.php?t=35926 This is what the Gemot community thinks of OELVNs, and the people who make them ie YOU.

This brings back memories, if you're a sensitive OELVN developer, you may want to stay clear as some of the comments made can be pretty brutal. Even respected commercial OELVN developers aren't spared.

If you're a freelance artist, you might want to stay clear also.

Ha! That's a fun link. But there's always going to be a segment of people who simply will never like what you do.

This link in particular strikes me as the equivalent of sticking your head into a hornet's nest and asking 'Hey hornets! How do you feel about people sticking their heads into your nest?' and then being surprised when the hornet's sting the ever living crap out of you. These aren't the sort of people any of us should be courting or otherwise trying to convince that they should like our work.

[Auro-Cyanide]

This topic seems very familiar, and then I remembered. http://forums.novelnews.net/showthread.php?t=35926 This is what the Gemot community thinks of OELVNs, and the people who make them ie YOU.

This brings back memories, if you're a sensitive OELVN developer, you may want to stay clear as some of the comments made can be pretty brutal. Even respected commercial OELVN developers aren't spared.

If you're a freelance artist, you might want to stay clear also.

Ah, that amused me. I do think they made some good points, but at the same time I felt what they were saying as very... ignorant (mostly because there is a damned if you do, damned if you don't thing going on). Playing a handful of games from a very particular slice of genre from a specific country doesn't make you an expert about anything. The very fact that they are acting as such makes me question their actual experience with anything outside of their narrow point of view. I will never, ever get this fascination with those particular Japanese VNs. Some of what they say is very true and some of it can actually be applied. That said, these people are never going to go within 20 miles of anything I make because it'll be BL or Otome (or OELVN lol) so why should I actually consider their opinions valid? I'm not going to fight a battle to win people like them over when I have other more receiptive audiences. They are kind of a moot point to worry about.

As for Katawa Shojo, anyone out of their immediate target audience (those people who are fans of the old school Japanese BxG VNs) know that it isn't quite what people make it out to be. It's good, but it's not that good, and it's been in development for a long time. I'm sure it will be a huge success when it finally makes it out of the woodwork, but it still isn't going to satisfy anyone who isn't that interested in GxB. There are other audiences out there after all.