You ever worry your work won't be taken seriously?

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HigurashiKira · #61 Post by **HigurashiKira** » Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:39 pm

Auro-Cyanide wrote:As for Katawa Shojo, anyone out of their immediate target audience (those people who are fans of the old school Japanese GxB VNs) know that it isn't quite what people make it out to be. It's good, but it's not that good, and it's been in development for a long time. I'm sure it will be a huge success when it finally makes it out of the woodwork, but it still isn't going to satisfy anyone who isn't that interested in GxB. There are other audiences out there after all.

Isn't KS a Hentai BxG game? And speaking of that link, they actually brought up some good points, especially about the shielding.

Auro-Cyanide · #62 Post by **Auro-Cyanide** » Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:49 pm

HigurashiKira wrote:
Auro-Cyanide wrote:As for Katawa Shojo, anyone out of their immediate target audience (those people who are fans of the old school Japanese GxB VNs) know that it isn't quite what people make it out to be. It's good, but it's not that good, and it's been in development for a long time. I'm sure it will be a huge success when it finally makes it out of the woodwork, but it still isn't going to satisfy anyone who isn't that interested in GxB. There are other audiences out there after all.
Isn't KS a Hentai BxG game? And speaking of that link, they actually brought up some good points, especially about the shielding.

Oops, got my G and B back to front XD Sorry.

Gear · #63 Post by **Gear** » Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:14 am

This is honestly something I've worried about quite a bit since starting my project. Part of it stemmed from the VNs I first played, like Phoenix Wright, and my constant comparisons to it. But knowing little of the culture going in, I had to wonder how much exposure I could possibly get.

The second Miles Edgeworth game got passed over for English localization, but games like Street Fighter (also by Capcom) went through. Sure, there may be more reasons why this happened, but I think it comes down to the fact that VNs aren't well-known by gamers. I mean, if we posted up our games on Xbox live, how many hits would it get? If even professional VN's aren't that well known (even Professor Layton and Phoenix Wright, which are only partially VNs are barely known compared to nonsense like Halo and whatnot), who would take an amateur game of an unknown genre seriously? It sometimes discourages me to continue my project, wondering if it's even worth the effort.

Of course, I had no idea about the negative connotations "visual novel" had these days. I've played one hentai VN, and all the others were fantasy/adventure VNs or KNs, so my mind never made that connection. I mean, should we call it a "Text Adventure" like back in the DOS days?

applegirl · #64 Post by **applegirl** » Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:27 am

Ah, I guess I should have been more specific in my last post. I was talking about a previous commercial game that I e-mailed the creator about (my critique was very unfavorable and he/she was not happy to hear about it). I figured it would be better to do that privately than on a forum because it was commercial. You know, a bad review can probably hurt an indie VN maker so I try to keep any bad comments private in order to show some support, even if the VN doesn't deserve its price tag. Sorry for the confusion Komi, I kinda forgot about AV. To be honest, I can understand the frustration that comes from KS. But you have to realize the audience is quite different. Since lemmasoft is big on otome games, of course the KS audience won't care! They mainly play BxG games, why would they care? It's like wondering why there are huge amounts of BxG games on this site...I think the audience is quite different. But I do think there are valid points here.

If anything, we've got to let the game makers take risks. There has to be a brave game maker out there who doesn't care about following the expected model of a "successful visual novel". I do like a lot of OLEVN, but I can't think of one yet that has made me think everything is changing with this one visual novel. It still is a young medium, but something has to change our expectations instead of just "oh, pretty pictures and cute story!". Yeah, those are important, but they won't make a huge impact on this community in moving forward. I wouldn't even bother comparing KS (heck, that is just a WIP that might never see the light of day). Nor would I bother talking about the triple AAA games like KH because those are a different genre (VNs aren't usually RPGs after alll). But I do think we can view this bias as a challenge to exceed the best VN out there. Why not take that challenge? I bet you if you publish an amazing VN that exceeds KS or whatever the standard bearer is...things will change.

In fact, I do ask the community to name that game-changing VN then. Forget KS, what about comparing ourselves to Narcissu? That's the VN I'd rather compare OLEVN to than KS. It's been translated to 8 languages for a very good reason...the story is exceptional and touching. With very little money and probably 1-2 people working on it, the VN makers made a VN crossed culture boundaries. An amateur group made a pretty famous VN with very little art that was recycled often, but the story touched a lot of people. Why can't we move towards that kind of story direction as well? Or heck, Phoenix Wright? Funny and challenging to the medium, right?

In fact, if we can't compare ourselves to them...why not claim a stake on the best OLEVN and start doing awards for the best? I think I read an article that was convinced Re:Allistar was a Japanese VN because it was so good. Why not have an award season that shows the line up of the best that this community has to offer? Honestly, there will be haters regardless...but you can convince people that the quality is improving. If you just lurk this website...it might be easy to believe otherwise.

LateWhiteRabbit · #65 Post by **LateWhiteRabbit** » Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:48 am

applegirl wrote: If anything, we've got to let the game makers take risks. There has to be a brave game maker out there who doesn't care about following the expected model of a "successful visual novel". I do like a lot of OLEVN, but I can't think of one yet that has made me think everything is changing with this one visual novel. It still is a young medium, but something has to change our expectations instead of just "oh, pretty pictures and cute story!".

The one thing I have to disagree with you on here is that VN are NOT a "young medium". I don't know why I see so many people saying that.

The medium of visual novels is - if we count the medium as using text and pictures to tell a story that gamers can click thru - was used often in the 1980s. Koei's 1982 game "Night Life" described as an erotic bishoujo game and advertised as a graphic adventure for example.

And a 1984 visual novel by JAST. You might have heard of them . . . . this is a game where the protagonist is a student trying to win the love of a girl on his school's tennis team, and must get on the good side of other characters around the school to do so. And as you can obviously see, it was already pioneering fan-service in the digital world. EDIT: Tenshitachi no Gogo (Angels' Afternoon) if anyone is interested.

So the genre is TEN YEARS older than the first person shooter genre, and THAT genre was created in 1992. So the VN medium is 30 years old.

So it makes it all the more important to follow the rest of your advice - to take risks, do something different, and revolutionize the genre in some way.

MoaCube posted an article on their blog about how that choices and gameplay are important for the genre - because otherwise, why not read a book? And I agree. Back when the VN genre was new (see above 1980s-early 90s), then displaying text on screen with pictures and getting to make a choice every once in a while that gave you new pictures was a big deal. There was no real internet, manga was in black and white, and the high quality (if low resolution) color anime pictures were a significant reward. Unless you bought a magazine or artbook, you weren't likely to see them anywhere else.

That's not the case anymore, and gamers want - well - a game! A think gameplay, actually designing gameplay mechanics and engaging the player as a player instead of a passive reader - is going to be extremely important to moving the genre forward. Some of the most successful "visual novels" to come out of these boards are the ones that emphasized gameplay.

applegirl wrote:Why not have an award season that shows the line up of the best that this community has to offer? Honestly, there will be haters regardless...but you can convince people that the quality is improving. If you just lurk this website...it might be easy to believe otherwise.

I agree with you. We are starting to see a steady rise in the quality of games on the board, and it seems a shame to not help get those games exposure and praise their accomplishments, just because we are afraid of possibly hurting feelings. To just lump everything in one pile on Renpy.org's game list doesn't seem very fair (or should I say - it seems EXCESSIVELY fair). I think it would be much more inspiring than discouraging to have an award season each year to display the best of what the community has to offer.

So, uh, ditto, Applegirl.

Strum · #66 Post by **Strum** » Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:28 am

LateWhiteRabbit wrote:I agree with you. We are starting to see a steady rise in the quality of games on the board, and it seems a shame to not help get those games exposure and praise their accomplishments, just because we are afraid of possibly hurting feelings. To just lump everything in one pile on Renpy.org's game list doesn't seem very fair (or should I say - it seems EXCESSIVELY fair). I think it would be much more inspiring than discouraging to have an award season each year to display the best of what the community has to offer.

Lol coming soon (maybe). May not be an award, but we'll start to see some sort of rating system in place

PyTom wrote: Once I get our new server up, I may rewrite games.renpy.org to have some sort of starring system.

You need to sweep all the "fluff" beneath the rug and only put the higher quality titles in the spotlight.

#67 Post by **Blue Lemma** » Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:21 am

LateWhiteRabbit wrote:We are starting to see a steady rise in the quality of games on the board, and it seems a shame to not help get those games exposure and praise their accomplishments, just because we are afraid of possibly hurting feelings. To just lump everything in one pile on Renpy.org's game list doesn't seem very fair (or should I say - it seems EXCESSIVELY fair).

We did something like this one year:
http://www.lemmasoft.net/lemmys/lemmys2008.html
http://www.lemmasoft.net/lemmys/results2008_0.html

Some people liked it, some people were against it... Personally I'm for it (heck, I came up with it) because all games may be equal from an idealistic standpoint, but they're certainly not equal as far as general appeal, effort, and execution.

AxemRed · #68 Post by **AxemRed** » Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:44 am

LateWhiteRabbit wrote:The medium of visual novels is - if we count the medium as using text and pictures to tell a story that gamers can click thru - was used often in the 1980s. Koei's 1982 game "Night Life" described as an erotic bishoujo game and advertised as a graphic adventure for example.

If you categorize graphical adventure games as visual novels, sure.

LateWhiteRabbit wrote:So the genre is TEN YEARS older than the first person shooter genre, and THAT genre was created in 1992. So the VN medium is 30 years old.

There were already FPS games in the early 80's (1973 if you count Maze War). And the first visual novels didn't start until the 90's, with hardly any English translations existing prior to 2005 or so. It's a relatively new genre, especially to western audiences.

LateWhiteRabbit wrote:That's not the case anymore, and gamers want - well - a game! A think gameplay, actually designing gameplay mechanics and engaging the player as a player instead of a passive reader - is going to be extremely important to moving the genre forward. Some of the most successful "visual novels" to come out of these boards are the ones that emphasized gameplay.

I sure as hell don't -- I actually like visual novels proper. I like games, I like visual novels, what I don't like is terrible gameplay shoehorned into my VNs. Even if you manage to add good gameplay to a VN, it wouldn't move the visual novel genre forward, it would move a different genre forward since visual novels -don't- have significant gameplay.

Deji · #69 Post by **Deji** » Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:55 pm

KomiTsuku wrote: There's only so much a non-artist can do when a "cheap" CG costs $50 each.

I read this phrase and thought that well, there's only so much you can do on a CG if you're only being paid $50 ^^;

Old but relevant:
Eroge production costs - Canned Dogs

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Regarding community-given awards and such, I think it's a good incentive and a good way for the community to set up their own goals.

I miss the Lemmys, tbh ):

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Now, to answer the OP question, I'm always embarrassed to tell people I draw anime-style characters for interactive stories.

But that's the general stigma of "You're an artist, so you are not a real professional" plus "You draw anime, so you're not a real artist" and mixed with "Your games are dating sims, so they aren't real games" and a bit of "That's cool! But when are you going to get a real job and do relevant stuff instead of pass-times like that?" (and lately "Oh that's a game for girls, so it's not a real game", courtesy of my male classmates in videogame design course. Not spoken, but the look on their faces when they look at my stuff is enough >: )

I don't mind people tearing my art apart so much, really. I find my own work awful a month or so after I'm done with it, if not earlier. So if somebody says that the art of a VN I worked on is sub-par or not good enough or whatever, I won't be mad; I might get hurt for a while, but it fuels my motivation to keep improving.

So... yeah.

applegirl · #70 Post by **applegirl** » Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:11 pm

I actually meant OLEVN being a young medium, but I guess that is true. VNs are maturing and have developed for some time. But I recognize that this community is still fairly young (Renpy isn't that old, right?) I just really support a ratings/awards season because I feel like that is essential to changing people's mind. There are many OLEVNs that I want to read and am looking forward to (check out my anticipated VNs list and you'll see

) but those VNs took forever to find. I had to wade through a lot of less than good VNs to even discover the hidden gems. I do realize that making VNs is difficult, but the typical reader would probably read 1 bad one and think "This poor VN reflects the best that the english community has to offer." You know what? That is NOT true. I've enjoyed many exceptional ones from this community, but I had to read a lot of bad ones to find the good. I'm all about being fair, but being fair is going to hinder the best in this visual novel making community. Why can't we challenge everyone with the rating system/award system? Getting a 5 star VN for being the best shows people in the community what VN appeals and satisfies the typical reader. It's easy feedback and to be honest, a lot of VNs that end up with no comment are often left with the creators wondering what went wrong.

I totally agree with Deji. I watched a livestream of a CG being done and those taking forever. It is ridiculous how little artists can make. So the best artists in this community (I hope you don't feel bad about this, but I do consider you Deji as one of the best artists in this community) would get very booked with game requests and the rest of the VN makers are left scrambling to find artists. This is a very competitive field and I often marvel at the games that are being produced. I don't want to ignore that (I know some of my posts have been kinda harsh on poor VNs). But the good artists are severely underpaid and the bad artists are kind of ruining this industry with overcharging/disappearing acts that lead to a lot of good projects falling apart. So...yeah, I agree with everyone. It's really complicated, but I have hope for the future. A lot of exceptional OLEVNs are being produced and I think they will change people's perceptions.

On a side note: KS is really considered the standard bearer?? I mean...I am looking forward to maybe checking it out but, I never considered it to be one of the best...

#71 Post by **PyTom** » Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:22 pm

Deji wrote:Now, to answer the OP question, I'm always embarrassed to tell people I draw anime-style characters for interactive stories.

When in a professional environment, I tend to describe Ren'Py as a "Digital Storytelling Engine". Digital storytelling is the respectable name for the field that we operate in - for example, IFIP Working Group 14.1 is focused on it, and there are multiple academic conferences with digital storytelling as the subject.

Mink · #72 Post by **Mink** » Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:42 pm

applegirl wrote:I actually meant OLEVN being a young medium, but I guess that is true. VNs are maturing and have developed for some time. But I recognize that this community is still fairly young (Renpy isn't that old, right?) I just really support a ratings/awards season because I feel like that is essential to changing people's mind. There are many OLEVNs that I want to read and am looking forward to (check out my anticipated VNs list and you'll see ) but those VNs took forever to find. I had to wade through a lot of less than good VNs to even discover the hidden gems. I do realize that making VNs is difficult, but the typical reader would probably read 1 bad one and think "This poor VN reflects the best that the english community has to offer." You know what? That is NOT true. I've enjoyed many exceptional ones from this community, but I had to read a lot of bad ones to find the good. I'm all about being fair, but being fair is going to hinder the best in this visual novel making community. Why can't we challenge everyone with the rating system/award system? Getting a 5 star VN for being the best shows people in the community what VN appeals and satisfies the typical reader. It's easy feedback and to be honest, a lot of VNs that end up with no comment are often left with the creators wondering what went wrong.

I'm kind of wary of a star-system. It'd be too easy for someone to go, "I don't like BL/Otome/etc." and rate it low just for that. Or rate something high just for that.

Also, who does that? Read one thing and immediately assume they're all bad? I may be nearly completely jaded about yaoi, but that's from reading a LOOOT of bad ones, not reading one. (And yet, I still go back. It's like I'm a glutton for punishment)

On a side note: KS is really considered the standard bearer?? I mean...I am looking forward to maybe checking it out but, I never considered it to be one of the best...

I imagine if you're not in KS' apparently rather specific target audience, you won't.

#73 Post by **sake-bento** » Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:33 pm

Blue Lemma wrote:
LateWhiteRabbit wrote:We are starting to see a steady rise in the quality of games on the board, and it seems a shame to not help get those games exposure and praise their accomplishments, just because we are afraid of possibly hurting feelings. To just lump everything in one pile on Renpy.org's game list doesn't seem very fair (or should I say - it seems EXCESSIVELY fair).
We did something like this one year:
http://www.lemmasoft.net/lemmys/lemmys2008.html
http://www.lemmasoft.net/lemmys/results2008_0.html

Some people liked it, some people were against it... Personally I'm for it (heck, I came up with it) because all games may be equal from an idealistic standpoint, but they're certainly not equal as far as general appeal, effort, and execution.

Actually, Visual Novels Now! is accepting nominations right now for the 2011 "Best of EVNs" awards. I already nominated a couple games from here (n-not the ones listed...that's not me), but the more nominations, the better.

applegirl · #74 Post by **applegirl** » Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:40 pm

I have to be honest...I have done that before. In the past and even today. Reading one bad OLEVN takes the wind out of my sails for reading another one. It helps that I've read a few good ones to remind myself of the quality level, but just today I had two possible OLEVN that I was semi-interested in. Reading one made me instantly regret it and I didn't have the heart to even bother with the 2nd, even if they were on completely opposite topics. The thing that is hard about VN is not only the difficulty of making one, it is also getting people to care enough to read/comment. I don't think it'll be a problem with me, but just reading that thread showed a lot of comments where people pointed to one OLEVN and claimed that it was essentially junk, so their opinions were fact. I do agree the star system can be abused...but I have to also be even more honest that reading the old awards kind of made me doubt that is the answer. The two OLEVN that I just downloaded and disliked today were from that award list. If I saw those as being recognized as the best of 2008...honestly, I'd be pretty pessimistic.

EDIT: Just looking at the list posted by Ayu made me feel a lot better though. I really did enjoy Kansei and DTIPB, so maybe the award idea isn't such a bad thing after all.

Not differentiating some kind of quality level makes it really hard to find good VNs. When it gets this hard to find them....I think the stereotypes prevail. If all the OLEVN I played/read were of high quality (like Re:allistar, PS, X-note, etc), I wouldn't even feel like this opinion had merit because I only had positive experiences with the best VNs that this community had to offer. But if I only had the VNs that I read today, I might believe it. Especially if that level of VN got an award...

On a side note, I think someone mentioned anime dubbing. I think that is kinda a similar deal. I actually really like english dubs (and have a lot of favorite dub actors) because I have had a lot of positive experiences (dvds and tv-wise). But I've heard bad dubs as well and those made me a bit wary at times. It's kinda the same, both require exceptional quality and work but the results are what matters to change people's perceptions. I guess I only suggested the star system because in the end, the newbies who are good will be helped the most. I already have an established list of people I know make excellent VNs (Automatically I check out Winter wolves, sakevisual, zeiva, etc.). It'd be nice to find some new groups to add to that list. I know I could add more people if I waded through a lot of threads...but after a while, I don't want to. Not when there's already an easier system in place for others VNs or games.

papillon · #75 Post by **papillon** » Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:09 pm

I'm not sure we are mature enough as a community to give awards that are meaningful, particularly without a shared agreement as to what precisely we want the awards to achieve (Recognise all creators? Recognise all good games? Find the "best" game?). A *good* awards system, as opposed to a vote-spamming contest, is very hard to do well.

Even ratings are much more difficult to handle than you'd think. I've seen fanfic archives with star systems that simply ended up with every story regardless of quality ending up with about the same rating. I've seen user-rating systems devolve into backstabbing wars, with people creating fake accounts to boost their own stats, blackmailing other creators with the threat of 1-star reviews if they don't provide a 5-star, hate mail, death threats... All this over free hobby stuff! It's mad.

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