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I don't mean to denigrate any of those who are just beginning on their journey of creation in the realm of VNs. But this concern really hit home mere moments ago after reading a blog review of an EVN.

Are EVNs really just all lumped together and viewed as beginner fluff? Are people expecting EVNs to be filled with creative commons music and sprites, or worse, lifted sprites and music from other "real" VNs?

If you knock yourself out and make a killer set of sprites, or an awesome series of event CGs, or a memorable, catchy tune for your game, do you ever worry that people are just going to slough off your work and assume it's lifted from some other "real" VN?

Or perhaps I'm completely wrong. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting others' perception of EVNs, and they're actually considered a developing, well respected medium?

No, not really. I'm pessimestic in a way where I just don't expect stuff from people. Then I'm happily surprised when something good happens, and I'm not upset when it doesn't. So I'll do what I'm doing because I want to, and if something nice comes out of it, then it's a nice surprise

I have GB of data to prove my work is my own, and if people don't believe me, that is their problem.

I'm not really worried about EVNs not being a respected medium because frankly I don't even think it's a well known medium (I've had to expalin what they are to lots of people, though they are becoming more well known). It's niche and EVNs are relatively new in the grand scheme of thing. We kind of have to prove ourselves and work to be known. I personally think VNs have a lot of potential, and all I can do is show what can be done to other people. I can't make them like it or respect it, just show them my best work.

Can I see this blog review that has caused this question? Just curious

I worry on both sides of the coin. On one hand I worry about this; on the other hand I worry that people might take my work too seriously, AKA be offended by it.

Because... Have you ever noticed how much "politically incorrect" stuff Japanese media gets away with? Over here in America, you have people constantly explaining it away like "Well, it's from Japan, so there will be racial/religious/gender stereotypes but it's good-natured!/they don't mean anything bad by it!/they don't know that it is considered offensive!" But if there is politically incorrect American media people flip the heck out. Case in point: Hetalia. Do you think an American comic book artist could have gotten away with that without major repercussions?

Now, obviously I'm not going to draw a bunch of blackface caricatures or whatever, but I do worry that because I am not from the magical land of Japan, I might get criticized harder for certain things.

I never thought to worry that someone might think my work was lifted from somewhere else. I don't draw my own backgrounds; I alter public domain photos pretty heavily. I draw my own sprites and I write my own stories. Now, obviously, I take inspiration from VNs that have come before, and I think that everyone probably "borrows" some ideas or themes from somewhere, you know?

As for being taken seriously, I will let my writing speak for itself and not worry about what anyone might think about it. If something is good, people will generally appreciate it. I just try to push anything I do to the best of my abilities I write VNs as a fun hobby because I enjoy doing it, that's about as far as I have thought about it, so far.

I'm guessing people would label them as amateur stuff because no English VN to my knowledge has been commercially successful and/or critically acclaimed.

I find fan-made stuff in Japan are much more widely accepted. See Pixiv for plenty of doujinshi samples, and you can tell that doujinshi are going strong. See Akamaru Jump, an amateur Shounen Jump that accepts aspiring manga-ka's works. I believe there was also some kind of video game showing event where they get to show their indie games.... though I could be remembering something else. Anyway, in the English-speaking society, I've observed that there seem to be fewer opportunities for people to debut with their indie products, whatever they may be. The Japanese seem more open about letting young talent take the stage. English-speakers like their stuff professional to a T. Of course, there are exceptions like Angry Birds and stuff, but they're few and far in-between.

And I don't think people are worried about credits and stuff. It's more about whether they've got the talent for VNs and what people think of the overall quality.

The worst has already happened to be (two 'so-so' rankings and one 'bad' ranking. The ones that did better I only contributed towards / co-produced). So at this point I don't care anymore. I'm making things because I believe those things deserve to be made.

I also agree with what Auro said to me the other time about people being so obsessed with making the way VNs "should" be (i.e. almost the same style and techniques/quality as those in Japan) whereas we should be working towards what VNs "can" be, especially as it applies to a western audience.

I'm with Sapphi. I only worry my work will be taken TOO seriously! If no one takes my work seriously, meh. Maybe it's just me, but I don't really care. If people ignore and don't get it, no big deal.

Games is srs busns?

....But I suppose when your first VN involves giant mushrooms and cherry panties, it's not supposed to be serious anyway...

Blue Lemma is right. Like most other hobbies, visual novels are Serious Business. And of course, everyone must conform to an arbitrary, vaguely defined art and writing standard.

...But seriously, what are your goals? Are you creating a story or game just for fun, or just for practice? Are you preparing yourself to be ready to make commercial-grade independent games? What do you hope to achieve?

No creative work will ever get universal praise. You can please some of the people some of the time, but it's impossible to please *all* of the people some of the time, much less all of the time.

Likewise, it's foolish to say "this is my art, and I demand that you believe that it has merits." I've occasionally seen that attitude expressed in the comics and general video games communities. There are some people who want their pop culture media to be taken seriously, but they don't always present good justifications for their statements. If you want to impress people, then think of reasons why they would appreciate it. (For example, statements like "My superhero comic is deconstructionist satire" to "my 3D shooter contains themes of free will, and talks about the logical end of objectivism.") Therefore, think about what makes your visual novel distinct. Does it have excellent, unique drawings, music, or presentation? What aspects of the plot, characterization, and gameplay are praiseworthy?

Finally, I'm interested in seeing western visual novels grow and change. I believe creators will benefit by developing their own styles, and writing the games/stories they want to make. If you want to write about love triangles, school stories, and moeblobs, then that's your decision. (Those are some of my guilty pleasures...) If you decide to write something different or experimental, and/or present it in a different format with unusual art, then you may not find much acceptance, but at least a few people will admire your efforts.

Voight-Kampff wrote:I don't mean to denigrate any of those who are just beginning on their journey of creation in the realm of VNs. But this concern really hit home mere moments ago after reading a blog review of an EVN.

Are EVNs really just all lumped together and viewed as beginner fluff? Are people expecting EVNs to be filled with creative commons music and sprites, or worse, lifted sprites and music from other "real" VNs?

If you knock yourself out and make a killer set of sprites, or an awesome series of event CGs, or a memorable, catchy tune for your game, do you ever worry that people are just going to slough off your work and assume it's lifted from some other "real" VN?

Or perhaps I'm completely wrong. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting others' perception of EVNs, and they're actually considered a developing, well respected medium?

I'll be honest . . . I've worked for professional studios before, and I've personally known some professional game developers with some impressive titles under their belts. My co-workers were all artists and well-read nerds for most part. A couple had worked in Japan. And they all laughed at the idea of VN being worth anything.

I quote: "You mean those 'games' that aren't games with the crappy amateur art meant for masturbation?"

Ouch. That's the impression from within the mainstream GAMING community. I shudder to think what non-gamers think on the subject. That quote above is actually half-way enlightened compared to some opinions I've heard. The worst impression I've encountered is that all these VN games are rape simulators for pedophiles. These people aren't trolling either, they honestly believe that. To them, saying you like VNs is the equivalent of informing them you can't be within 500 yards (meters for all you non-Americans) of a school.

Part of it IS the lack of quality titles. We have a massive, massive, glut of amateur games of every stripe and caliber, and very few professional games. And honestly, even some of those professional titles are hurting for quality. We have a problem similar to the 1983 Atari video game market crash - we have so many titles to pick from, and so many of them are bad, that most people just don't bother looking through the heap for the quality gems.

Part of it is the titles that get coverage on major gaming sites and in the media. It is always the scandalous or most screwed up titles that get an article or a blurb, along with an eye-catching picture to get everyone riled up. (Links are mildly-NSFW. All go to Kotaku.)
Hypnotize School Girls to Show You Their Panties
Fifteen-year-olds have no panties in this game!
12 Yr. Olds And Up Get Tentacles, Rope Play And Suggestive Udder Spray
I mean, seriously? This is what we have to put up with. THIS is what everyone who has never played a VN thinks they are about. They think it's smut. But worse than that, they think it's legally-questionable smut. To put it bluntly, we have an image problem.

Auro-Cyanide wrote: I'm not really worried about EVNs not being a respected medium because frankly I don't even think it's a well known medium (I've had to expalin what they are to lots of people, though they are becoming more well known). It's niche and EVNs are relatively new in the grand scheme of thing. We kind of have to prove ourselves and work to be known. I personally think VNs have a lot of potential, and all I can do is show what can be done to other people. I can't make them like it or respect it, just show them my best work.

Can I see this blog review that has caused this question? Just curious

I agree. We just have to do our best and put the best foot forward. Unfortunately, our PR department sucks.
(I'd like to the see the blog review as well.)

Sapphi wrote:I worry on both sides of the coin. On one hand I worry about this; on the other hand I worry that people might take my work too seriously, AKA be offended by it.

Because... Have you ever noticed how much "politically incorrect" stuff Japanese media gets away with? Over here in America, you have people constantly explaining it away like "Well, it's from Japan, so there will be racial/religious/gender stereotypes but it's good-natured!/they don't mean anything bad by it!/they don't know that it is considered offensive!" But if there is politically incorrect American media people flip the heck out. Case in point: Hetalia. Do you think an American comic book artist could have gotten away with that without major repercussions?

Now, obviously I'm not going to draw a bunch of blackface caricatures or whatever, but I do worry that because I am not from the magical land of Japan, I might get criticized harder for certain things.

Yeah, Japan gets away with some seriously screwed up stuff. For the record, I don't believe in any form of censorship, but Japan makes me slap my forehead at least once a week and mutter, "Dammit, Japan . . . ."

Blue Lemma wrote: ....But I suppose when your first VN involves giant mushrooms and cherry panties, it's not supposed to be serious anyway...

Don't knock those cherry panties Blue Lemma! They were amazingly wrong in the best way.

gekiganwing wrote:snip

I pretty much agree with all of that.

Finally, to close: I know this is going to be unpopular, but there is no way I'm going to label the game I've making as a VN. (It technically isn't anyway.) The genre name has too much baggage associated with it in the public mind for it to be worth it. It's going to be a commercial release, so I'm going to let the gameplay speak for itself. I think for too long the only VNs to come over from Japan were the hentai games, so that's what colored peoples perceptions of the genre. People have no stigma against anime-style games - the Tales series, other JRPGs, etc. are wildly successful - but VNs are seemingly forever linked to more pornographic fare. And in the U.S. at least, being labeled or even thought of as Adult or Sexual is the kiss of marketing and financial death.

LateWhiteRabbit wrote:but VNs are seemingly forever linked to more pornographic fare. And in the U.S. at least, being labeled or even thought of as Adult or Sexual is the kiss of marketing and financial death.

Well, that's probably because Hentai VN's are more commercially successful. At least I've never seen a non-hentai VN in our CD shops. I've never seen many CD's with VN though... I think it were titles like X-Change, Virgin Rooster and Some other old HVN. Ah, no, wait! I saw a pirated Ever 17! Woo!

Now to the topic.
No, I never worry about stuff like that. Actually whenever my work is released (story, picture, VN, game, doesn't matter) it always has very few comments. I used to it so everything I worry is how to make a better story/picture/VN e.t.c.

Wait, we have a PR department?

But seriously, I don't think it is anything to be depressed about. Like I said, the majority of people don't even know what a VN is. Now is a good a time as any to start creating a more favourable impression with people. And no one else is going to do it if we don't. We have an amazing opportunity to help shape the way this medium forms, from conventions in the medium to the impressions people will hold. I do think that we need to step away from what the Japanese have created in some cases, especially since a lot of the conventions don't carry across well to other audiences. I actually think otome games will go a long way in legitimising VNs because people are not going to immediately connect them to sex (cause girls don't watch porn lol), as will the games with no romantic tones at all. Like I said, it's pointless worrying too much about that aspect of it. All you can do is make the games you want to make and show them what they can be. I don't think the words are so heavily ingrained in society that the meaning can't be changed (most people think of graphic novels incidentally), so I think there is plenty of room to create the kind of medium we want with relying on what others have done before.

We are all technically PR agents of the medium, so I'll label the games I work on as VNs and I'll show and explain to people what they are. It's like how people still think animation is still just for kids, but studios like Ghibli and Pixar have gone a long way in creating movies that a lot of people can enjoy... not that we on the level of those studios, but it is possible to change peoples perceptions by creating work to prove it.

because no English VN to my knowledge has been commercially successful and/or critically acclaimed.

That depends entirely on people making up their own definitions of what commercially successful and critically acclaimed mean. Some of us do make our living selling these games, you know.

People sometimes get weirdly obsessed with earning the 'respect' of groups that are against them from the start even when it's not relevant. There are many people who believe that casual games are not "real" videogames (and when you investigate that attitude far enough, it often boils down to "because they're not aimed at teenage boys"). Do you waste a lot of time and effort jumping up and down yelling at the "hardcore" players triyng to convince them to take you seriously, or do you focus on meeting the needs of the audience you actually have?

Yes, of course, there are crazy japanophile snobs who honestly believe that there never has been and never will be a decent VN written in English, and there are people who think all VNs are loli rape simulators. Knocking yourself out trying to earn their approval is a losing game. There are millions more people who've never even HEARD of VNs.

papillon wrote:Yes, of course, there are crazy japanophile snobs who honestly believe that there never has been and never will be a decent VN written in English

*cough*megatokyoforums*cough*

OP: Yes, I do worry. At least when it's work I myself consider serious. Obviously, "Daemonophilia", for example, was supposed to be light-hearted and sily. (Though I'm rather proud that a Google search for said term brings it up as the top result, and I'm even listed in the "Succubi Wiki" with it...). But most of the other stories I published in VN form mean something to me. And yes, I'm bothered that "Metropolitan Blues" is rated 2 out of 5 stars on download.com because three of the nine people who wrote a review didn't even play it before they rated it zero stars.

Me, I've always wanted to write stories that have an effect on the people reading them. Make them think. Make them feel. Leave them with the impression that they've just had a very special experience, you know? Some people I can convince to give my stories a try, and most of the time, it works out then. Negative feedback never fazes me; it's actually good news because people care enough to get back to me.

What I really can't handle is being ignored. I put my heart and soul into something I believe to be a gripping story, I publish it for free, and no one gives a shit. Not even a troll with a "lol awful". I know I'm not that mediocre, and sometimes I believe I should finally stop making VNs the way I like them and just start bugging people with top-level skills to help me. I mean, "The Dreaming", with really professional art and a more intricate GUI, should have been a hit, shouldn't it? Even with the unfinished looks, it's the title I got the most credit for.

Maybe I really should stop making VNs the amateur way. Maybe it's time to give my stories the professional look they need to attract more viewers. Maybe "visual novel" isn't the moniker to use; maybe I should do it like the Japanese do and call the games "adventures". Artists the level of Deji, programmers the level of Jack Norton... I mean, it's all here.

Only, making VNs the old way, with relatively new artists and doing the programming myself, with my little skill, is tremendous fun.

Maybe i just don't want to give up having fun.

(Hell, how did this become a rant?)

Auro-Cyanide wrote:Can I see this blog review that has caused this question? Just curious

I'd rather not single it out.

But interestingly enough, it didn't catch my attention because the review was bashing the game. Quite the contrary. It was surprisingly even-handed. In fact, it was too even-handed. To the point where I felt like it was being condescending. It was basically given a "handicap" in order for it to be reviewed on the same level as "real" Japanese VNs.

At any point in your schooling, have you ever encountered a situation in which someone with a mental handicap was put into one of your classes? Despite the fact that said person obviously needed special attention and couldn't possibly meet the demands of the class? But the teacher tried in vain to make the situation work? That's how I felt about this review.

And as I said to begin with, this isn't meant to denigrate anyone who has the enthusiasm to work on a EVN. But when a reviewer completely glosses over inherently weeaboo choices, lifted Jpop music and the like, and presents the game as though it were every bit as good and valid as a review of Shuffle! or Ever 17, then that concerns me.

It's like the reviewer is patting the EVN on the head, saying, "There there. Don't you worry about those big-boy titles. It's okay. You're just a EVN after all. I'll give you an extra special review to make you feel every bit as valid and as important as them".

It goes along with what Sapphi was alluding to, in how the Japanese get a "pass" on the content of their games because, well gosh darn it, they're just cute little racist Japanese, they can't help it.

gekiganwing wrote:...But seriously, what are your goals? Are you creating a story or game just for fun, or just for practice? Are you preparing yourself to be ready to make commercial-grade independent games? What do you hope to achieve?

Personally? I just like to tell stories. And what I'm working on now isn't being done with any ambitions of fame and/or fortune. I learned a long time ago that my preferences and ideals do not match up well with a mass audience. But if the genre/media that I'm working in is so poorly respected that people aren't even going to give it a chance to succeed or fail, well, that gives me pause.

gekiganwing wrote:No creative work will ever get universal praise. You can please some of the people some of the time, but it's impossible to please *all* of the people some of the time, much less all of the time.

I've already been there. Multiple times. My personal favorite comment was from the guy that kindly requested I drink gasoline and die—and if I happened to live, spit out the rest onto my computer, light it on fire and never subject the world to anything like that ever again.

LateWhiteRabbit wrote:I mean, seriously? This is what we have to put up with. THIS is what everyone who has never played a VN thinks they are about. They think it's smut. But worse than that, they think it's legally-questionable smut. To put it bluntly, we have an image problem.

QFT. And I'll be honest, that was my whole perception of VNs and dating sims for years. YEARS. I never even bothered looking in their direction because that sort of content never interested me. Imagine my surprise when I realized the OBVIOUS after playing Tsukihime: VNs can be used as a vehicle for legitimate story-telling. But, even if you look at the Japanese VN landscape, those sorts of titles are few and far between.

LateWhiteRabbit wrote:Finally, to close: I know this is going to be unpopular, but there is no way I'm going to label the game I've making as a VN. (It technically isn't anyway.) The genre name has too much baggage associated with it in the public mind for it to be worth it. It's going to be a commercial release, so I'm going to let the gameplay speak for itself.

I can't say I blame you. In fact, this is preceisely why I always hound PyTom into making an iOS port of Ren'Py. It's my belief that the iDevices are a blank slate (harhar), waiting to be colonized with VN content. I mean, people have tons of iPhones and iPads. And they need content to read on those devices. Why not give them pretty pictures and a little interactivity with their stories? After all, if Apple approves of the content, that means it's already been vetted by them. It couldn't possibly be barely-disguised "porn". Right?

@Voight-Kampff, ah, I see... that is interesting, since it's something that also exists within the community. There is conflict about what VNs should look like and read like, what they should be about and what they should avoid, what does and does not deserve attention. It is an interesting thing to look at, but a very awkward one as well. Thanks for telling me what it was about