What is success for a VN?

[applegirl]

I became curious again about what defines success for a visual novel. In that regard, I'd like to distinguish between success for a free VN and success for a commercial VN. For a free VN, would success be fame? Or would just a few comments from people saying how they truly loved the VN suffice? For a commercial VN, is there a set number of units that need to be sold? I've read articles about how hard it is to sell VNs (and the numbers I've seen sold for VNs were always a lot lower than I had expected).

I guess what I'm asking boils down to one fundamental question: for you, what would make you feel like the VN you published was a success? Number of comments? Glowing reviews and cash? All of the above? (lol) I'm hoping for a more positive thread since I imagine my last one was kinda depressing since it discussed bad reviews and all

[DaFool]

Free: A single review saying how the work touched them and it was the best thing they read/played in a while.

Commercial: 1000 sales.

The end.

...well, okay, I've been analyzing various works. I've had my share of projects where people said "I'd pay for this!" as well as people trolling me and calling me names.

Frankly, at this point I can't tell the difference anymore. I work hard at every project and my every contribution was built to specification. If the specification called for something low budget, than it was low budget. If high budget, then ditto. I conclude that it all boils down to personal preferences.

Also, nice art goes a long, long way, more than good writing (writing only needs to be adequate). That's what I noticed.

[Camille]

I've calculated that in order to recoup the amount of money spent on buying things for BCM (the music, GUI design work, etc), we will need to sell about 25-30 copies. If we can sell at least that much, I'll be pretty happy. Anything above that will have me over the moon. (anything in the three-digits makes me nervous to think about) Honestly, as long as most people who play the game enjoy what we've made, I'll be pleased and consider that a success. While Auro and I are making some commercial games, we're also making free ones. To us, VN-work is still a hobby even if it's one we take seriously. It's a labor of love. It's just that I don't have a full-time job, so money is pretty necessary for me to be able to do what I do. ^^; But I don't want to use money as a measuring stick for success, similarly to how I believe that lack of comments =/= lack of interest.

Of course, Auro and I have a philosophy that's like "Expect the worst, but hope for the best"? I was honestly not expecting the BCM demo to do as well and resonate with players as much as it did. That really spurs us to work harder on it so it can be a success. *_*

Also, I'll have to disagree with DaFool about writing only needing to be adequate. I think the important thing is that art and writing be at least equal to each other. If you have really nice art, people will look for something else to criticize: the writing. Or putting it another way, nice art makes bad writing stand out more. I've seen so many reviews of videogames that are like "Well the art/graphics were nice, but man the story/characters/writing was terrible!" You don't want anything in your project to stand out in a bad way, basically. Great writing and bad art won't do it, either. It's not necessary to strive for absolute best quality in everything if it's outside of your budget, but try to keep things equal as best you can.

[LateWhiteRabbit]

For commercial VNs, I'd imagine any VN that sold well enough to cover costs and earn you a profit would be considered a success. Number-wise, if I understand it correctly, if you managed to sell more than 10,000 units you could go all "neener neener face" at companies like Jast and Peach, cause you would be kicking their [censored]. (Your profit margin would probably be considerably better than theirs as well.)

Name recognition is probably a good measure of some kind of success, rather commercial or not, for your VN as well. Like Papillon's Cute Knight series has widespread name recognition on the internet even outside the VN community.

For non-commerical VNs, I'd guess anything that got people talking and kept them talking would be a success. Lots of comments and discussion and people recommending it to friends.

Also, nice art goes a long, long way, more than good writing (writing only needs to be adequate). That's what I noticed.

That's because good art gets them in the door - the writing is what makes them stay. Just like any form of advertisement, you have to attract the people first, then sell them on your product/idea/story. There is a reason book covers are made to look awesome - to get people to pick it up off the shelf and read that cover jacket out of all the other dozens of books on the shelf. Or in our case the hundreds and thousands of things on the internet.

[DaFool]

Also, I'll have to disagree with DaFool about writing only needing to be adequate.

Actually my philosophy is in fact in line with yours. It's just from experience, good art can sometimes make adequate writing sound stellar.

edit: what LateWhiteRabbit just said. Except that good writing can sometimes take only an afternoon's worth of work. While good art to advertise that writing can take months.

[Camille]

Actually my philosophy is in line with yours. It's just from experience, good art can sometimes make adequate writing sound stellar.

Hmm... Well I guess people might be able to overlook the writing a little if the art is really good, but if the gap is too wide, they'll still feel dissatisfied, right? But if the writing is "adequate", I suppose it'd probably be okay... Still, if all we needed was good art, I wouldn't be working so hard at writing. XD Personally, I feel like if I don't match my artists' quality, I'm doing both them and the players a disservice. I'd feel really disappointed with myself. ^^;

I am also perhaps just a little offended by a few of the crits we've received that have been like "The art was great, but the writing was just okay" and am trying hard to not get such things said to me in the future. /sobs

That's because good art gets them in the door - the writing is what makes them stay.

Agreed 100%~

[Strum]

Also, nice art goes a long, long way, more than good writing (writing only needs to be adequate). That's what I noticed.

That's because good art gets them in the door - the writing is what makes them stay. Just like any form of advertisement, you have to attract the people first, then sell them on your product/idea/story. There is a reason book covers are made to look awesome - to get people to pick it up off the shelf and read that cover jacket out of all the other dozens of books on the shelf. Or in our case the hundreds and thousands of things on the internet.

You're absolutely right, especially if it's a commercial game. You have an ugly product, not many people are going to pick it up in the first place.

Although a bad story will be criticized, at least people have actually bothered to look at it in the first place. Many OELVNs probably get ignored and automatically gets labeled as crap, simpily because the artwork as bad.

Also @DaFool that comment is dangerous. Your first partnership game with Xent was a success (praised by both OELVN fans and Japanese weebos alike) not just because the graphics were pretty. It was successful because it's a type of game weebos call "Nukage" Nukage games aren't suppose to have an epic story. The story only serves as a backdrop, explaining why the characters are there. Those types of games are suppose to be short and the main focus is on the sex scenes.

[Voight-Kampff]

I've calculated that in order to recoup the amount of money spent on buying things for BCM (the music, GUI design work, etc), we will need to sell about 25-30 copies. If we can sell at least that much, I'll be pretty happy. Anything above that will have me over the moon. (anything in the three-digits makes me nervous to think about) Honestly, as long as most people who play the game enjoy what we've made, I'll be pleased and consider that a success.

While some creators might farm out work, like backgrounds or music, I think many people don't consider their own time. I mean, if one wants to work commercially, I think it's necessary for the creator/writer to consider their own work. How much time have YOU spent working on the game? What sort of hourly wage do you consider is fair for your work? What sort of wage is livable for you?

Personally, if a creator disregards that aspect and only calculates cost based on what they might have paid out to third parties, I consider the end result more of a hybrid fan/commercial endeavor.

[HikkiPanda]

@strum : you mean nukige ?

[Auro-Cyanide]

I've calculated that in order to recoup the amount of money spent on buying things for BCM (the music, GUI design work, etc), we will need to sell about 25-30 copies. If we can sell at least that much, I'll be pretty happy. Anything above that will have me over the moon. (anything in the three-digits makes me nervous to think about) Honestly, as long as most people who play the game enjoy what we've made, I'll be pleased and consider that a success.

While some creators might farm out work, like backgrounds or music, I think many people don't consider their own time. I mean, if one wants to work commercially, I think it's necessary for the creator/writer to consider their own work. How much time have YOU spent working on the game? What sort of hourly wage do you consider is fair for your work? What sort of wage is livable for you?

Personally, if a creator disregards that aspect and only calculates cost based on what they might have paid out to third parties, I consider the end result more of a hybrid fan/commercial endeavor.

Oh yeah, BCM is DEFINITELY one of those XD I would hate to think about the combined cost of our time. The only reasons BCM is commercial is because we have worked hard on it and there has been money spent on GUI and music. I think both Camille and I would be making games even if we weren't making money simply because we love doing it. Money is a bonus that helps cover costs.

BCM would be a success in my mind as long as people collectively like it and that it made an impression on them. I don't want them to say "Oh, that was nice", I want them to be "Wow, I can't believe what you have done!". A lot of work is going into this game to make it polished, so I want it to resonate and intrigue people more than anything else.

[Camille]

While some creators might farm out work, like backgrounds or music, I think many people don't consider their own time. I mean, if one wants to work commercially, I think it's necessary for the creator/writer to consider their own work. How much time have YOU spent working on the game? What sort of hourly wage do you consider is fair for your work? What sort of wage is livable for you?

Personally, if a creator disregards that aspect and only calculates cost based on what they might have paid out to third parties, I consider the end result more of a hybrid fan/commercial endeavor.

I don't consider that right now because I don't really have to. I know very well that BCM isn't going to make enough money for me "to live on" because it's extremely niché and I have terrible spending habits. It's not only an OELVN, but also a BL. (I know plenty of people who won't touch the game just because of the BL label despite the fact that romance isn't even the main point of the game) It's the nichést of the niché. I was very serious when I said I'll be happy if even just 25 people buy the game--despite the fact that combined, Auro and I have most definitely worked a four-digit number of hours and counting on BCM. XD (heck, I think I may have racked up at least 1,000 hours just on my own) Most days, I live and breathe BCM. If I were to measure success based on how well I'm compensated for my time, blood, sweat, and tears, I'd never be satisfied.

Would it be nice to make more money? Sure. But if I hadn't spent time on this, I would've just spent time goofing off somewhere anyway. XD I'm still a college student. I still live with my parents. It's not like my time is exactly worth very much to begin with and anyway I have no immediate need to make enough money to support myself. The money made from BCM will mostly be used to make other VNs. I always will make some free games, if possible. Profit is a secondary thing for me. Saying BCM is more of a hybrid endeavor sounds about right. So more doujinshi than commercial product. Or something. But I understand that other commercial VN makers DO need their games to make a living and so success will be calculated differently for them. This is just my personal approach.

I think both Camille and I would be making games even if we weren't making money simply because we love doing it. Money is a bonus that helps cover costs.

I can agree with that. /o/ Though the money helps, yeah. It's hard to justify the amount of work I put in to my parents when it's all for free, haha, so the money enables me to work on VNs more. It's not the reason I do, so that's not how I'll measure my success.

[Glasskitten]

The Glasskitten thinks it would be successful at visual novelling when it finishes a few.
The Glasskitten thinks it would be Successful at visual novelling when its works are mentioned alongside the Higurashi and Fate/Stay series.
The Glasskitten thinks it would be commercially successful if mainstream bookstore chains carried its visual novels.
The Glasskitten generally doesn't bother with the shackles of reality when formulating goals. ^_^

[KimiYoriBaka]

It was successful because it's a type of game weebos call "Nukage"

was that nukige? oh. I had thought it was moege. of course, I'm only familiar with those terms because of koe de oshigoto...

while I haven't managed to finish one of my projects yet, I find myself agreeing with glasskitten. Especially that last one...

[lordcloudx]

Success for a free VN is what the creator considers to be a success -- or when the creator has been personally led to believe that his work is a success based on his personal standards. It could be some measure based on factors such as popularity, acceptance, number of downloads, number of positive critical reviews -- or an entirely personal criteria. It's free so there's really no sense in attempting to apply a single, static criteria based purely on the consensus of a majority.

Success for a commercial VN may also depend on the creator, but its "commercial success" should ultimately be measured using monetary/pecuniary standards. There may also be differing opinions on this. Long-term success would depend on the capacity of the VN to sustain sales for an extended period without incurring losses to the creator/publisher. Short-term success may be measured based on how fast the VN rakes in profits relative to the capital in terms of industry, financial investment and other assets that went into the VN for purposes of production, marketing and distribution. In any case, these are all quite lenient gauges of "commercial success" and people who hold themselves to higher standards may prefer to use a more perfushenally accepted/recognized/hyped or otherwise anal-retentive measure.

[Hollow Gourd]

Also, nice art goes a long, long way, more than good writing (writing only needs to be adequate).

I completely disagree with this statement. The basic purpose of a visual novel is to tell a story. In my opinion, the illustrations are story aids. Admittedly, amazing artwork can lure me into playing a game. But, if I do not find the story enjoyable, I most certainly won't be going for that second play-through. If I finish it at all.

As a matter of fact, thanks to the wonders of the internet, good art is likely only to get me as far as reading the synopsis if said synopsis does not make the story sound worthwhile. And, I am more than willing to endure adequate artwork if the story is intriguing enough.