WiP Questionnaire

[Celianna]

I think PyTom is trying to avoid having energy and time expended into an area that goes nowhere, like random ideas.

There isn't much effort to be done by splitting it up into two forums, let one be chaos, and one be regulated through mod approval. You don't even need to look at the early ideas forum, just let it run its course, and the only time you have to put effort into it, is when people PM and request their topic to be moved to the real WIP forum - and hey, that's something mods do.

I don't think he means just the admins and mods, he means as a community. Time spent talking about ideas would probablt be better spent actually working on one. Talking about idea is a lot of fun, but it doesn't get you very far at the end of the day. At some point you have to bite the bullet and actually commit to work if you want to get things done. It is probably a bit hard on the people who prefer to talk about ideas than do something with them, but I think focusing on development and producing actual content is more benefical to everyone in the long wrong.

Regardless of how anyone thinks how far a project must be to become a 'real WIP' (there's still no definition of that, so that's all fuzzy), there will always be people with ideas, and they're going to be posting about them, one way or another. Either give them their own space, or shove them under a rug and pretend they don't exist.

The idea of having an ideas thread as opposed to a forum was take the focus away from indivdual ideas and instead focus on the ideas that have people working behind them. These ideas that have turned into projects are much more important because they are at least trying to get somewhere. I don't think a game development forum should be overly concerned with things that aren't actually in development. I don't see the point in having a forum in choas, it seems a bit redundant.

An idea thread sounds nice to me, perhaps a stickied topic for early idea discussion would be better than using a questionnaire to stop them from being discussed.

Though, I'm still 100% for mod approval, without a questionnaire.

[LateWhiteRabbit]

I think PyTom is trying to avoid having energy and time expended into an area that goes nowhere, like random ideas.

There isn't much effort to be done by splitting it up into two forums, let one be chaos, and one be regulated through mod approval. You don't even need to look at the early ideas forum, just let it run its course, and the only time you have to put effort into it, is when people PM and request their topic to be moved to the real WIP forum - and hey, that's something mods do.

The problem is that the idea section will naturally sap attention away from the WIP section. If people don't feel like filling out the questionnaire or doing work on their project before posting they will just post their game idea or thread in the idea section and let it ramble. If forced to focus before they blurt out project ideas, the end result will always be better.

Besides, if we allow threads to be moved from ideas to WIP like you are suggesting once progress is made, the end result will be a WIP thread that starts as a jumble of insufficient information, since that was how it would be initially posted in this theoretic ideas section. And really, sorry, but getting to post an initial idea and then asking to have it moved later to WIP is just cheating your way around the new process of having to think and do work on your project before posting about it.

Fact is, no idea had "on the spot" should be posted. Period. A day or two of careful thought and planning would be sufficient to cover nearly everything asked for on the questionnaire. Professionally, I've had to make more detailed pitches for a game than this questionnaire is asking for with only a lunch break of planning time. The questionnaire is just acting as a gatekeeper by asking every creator before they post - "Stop. Take a minute. Think. Are you serious about this project?"

Auro-Cyanide is right. Posting about ideas is just wasting time that could be spent developing them.

People posting unfleshed out ideas on the forum that they just came up with are essentially just thinking out loud in public. I see a lot of ideas posted just because people are bored. "I have this idea for a cool VN - you are in high school and you wake up late one morning - I haven't got anything else yet. What do you think?" They are just looking for conversation. The whole point of this redesign and restructuring is to make Lemmasoft a place were work can be done and the creation process focused on.

If initial postings in WIP are going to have to be approved by a mod, then a questionnaire is essential for consistency, fairness, and keeping a mod from having to make too many judgement calls. It also gives the mod something to point to if a post is denied as a reason.

[Celianna]

The problem is that the idea section will naturally sap attention away from the WIP section.

No it wouldn't. On any type of forum, the first forums you see always receive the biggest traffic and attention. The sub-forums are usually much, much more quiet. So in essence, the early idea forum, if part of the WIP forum as a sub-forum, would receive less attention - and thus it would make people want to spend more time on their project so they can get it moved to the real WIP forum for more feedback.

If people don't feel like filling out the questionnaire or doing work on their project before posting they will just post their game idea or thread in the idea section and let it ramble. If forced to focus before they blurt out project ideas, the end result will always be better.

I don't feel like filling out a questionnaire - but I've done tons of work on my project. The two don't correlate; just because I've made an effort on my project, doesn't mean I want to be forced to answer even more additional information, just because it's an effort to drown out smaller 'idea' projects.

Besides, if we allow threads to be moved from ideas to WIP like you are suggesting once progress is made, the end result will be a WIP thread that starts as a jumble of insufficient information, since that was how it would be initially posted in this theoretic ideas section. And really, sorry, but getting to post an initial idea and then asking to have it moved later to WIP is just cheating your way around the new process of having to think and do work on your project before posting about it.

No, no, that's not how it would work. The mod would have to approve the topic based on their judgement - and let's face it, we can all easily see which topics you want to get rid of, and which ones have put in actual effort. So anyone who made a crap topic, and asked for it to be moved, would get denied. Simple as that, really.

Fact is, no idea had "on the spot" should be posted. Period. A day or two of careful thought and planning would be sufficient to cover nearly everything asked for on the questionnaire. Professionally, I've had to make more detailed pitches for a game than this questionnaire is asking for with only a lunch break of planning time. The questionnaire is just acting as a gatekeeper by asking every creator before they post - "Stop. Take a minute. Think. Are you serious about this project?"

It only serves to annoy those that are serious about their project, while totally turning off anyone who might have an idea they wanted to share. I don't see it working.

Auro-Cyanide is right. Posting about ideas is just wasting time that could be spent developing them.

There's nothing wrong with discussion though.

People posting unfleshed out ideas on the forum that they just came up with are essentially just thinking out loud in public. I see a lot of ideas posted just because people are bored. "I have this idea for a cool VN - you are in high school and you wake up late one morning - I haven't got anything else yet. What do you think?" They are just looking for conversation. The whole point of this redesign and restructuring is to make Lemmasoft a place were work can be done and the creation process focused on.

Then a stickied topic for them would be best, instead of a questionnaire, no?

[sheetcakeghost]

Mkay, I can agree then that an Ideas thread might not be the best use of effort. But people will ask for a place to put them, and forcing just one WiP thread will guarantee more half-baked ideas than it will thought out ones. Personally, if I just wanted to get through the questionnaire, I could bullshit an answer to all of them and then continue on with it like it was an idea topic, then just edit my answers as things progress.

The questions may help as a guide for people who want to post, but the post itself needs a uniformed template. We should probably be focusing the discussion more on developing that.

[Kura]

On the issue of how much plot information to require, it might be sufficient to ask something like this:

What are the main conflicts of the story? Do you know how they'll be resolved (yes/no)?
or,
Describe some plot events. Do you know how the story ends (yes/no)?

"Describe some events" may be too open-ended and possibly give a false positive for a project where they only know what happens on the first day of the game, but it might not be appropriate for all VNs to talk about story in terms of conflict and resolution. Either way, I'm inclined to think that it's okay to ask a simple yes/no on whether they know how it ends as long as they can describe the forces driving the plot or some major events that happen along the way.

[papillon]

Of course, having to fill out a questionnaire _at all_ is almost certainly going to drive away some real works who are busy working and don't want to try and figure out who they have to please to get a thread posted... people who have their own blogs and forums may be inclined to just post there, even if their games are capable of passing the 'challenge' if they tried.

I'm not sure how well you can make a set of rules to cover all eventualities without making things complicated enough that it bugs people who just want to make games rather than people who want to post threads.

[Auro-Cyanide]

A questionnaire would take, what, 15 minutes to fill out tops? The thing is that it is a good solution to getting people to stop and think about what they are doing and provide objective information for the mods to look at. Sure, it's not going to suit everyone, but I don't think that there is a solution that will. A questionnaire provides a number of functions plus is easy to apply to EVERYONE, not just at the subjective discretion of a mod. If it just gets people to articulate their ideas and helps them plan, it's a good thing.

If I was a mod, I would much prefer having a form to look at then a bunch of topics that use different layouts. It would be too difficult to tell what is going on. Maybe you reject one topic only to have the person come back and say they just forgot to mention it. A questionnaire will make everyone answer the exact same questions so everyone can be judged on similar criteria and you don't have people leaving out info and whatever.

I would like to hear other suggestions that have the same benefits as a questionnaire if there is one, but I don't think the fact you don't want to spend 15 minutes doing one is a good enough reason to totally disregard it. I would have no problems filling it out, especially if it allowed me to post and didn't give the mods a mountain of work.

[papillon]

Just sayin', I've already heard grumblings from some established creators who would rather post on their own sites than waste time making sense of a questionnaire. I don't mean *me*.

But the point is, if the end result is that the people who take the time to deal with the questionnaire are those who just really really really want to post a thread and will jump through any hoops necessary to try and make their project sound Good Enough so that they can post about it, and the people who are producing games throw up their hands at the hassle and move elsewhere, what good has it accomplished? That's something that has to be considered.

My objection to PyTom's original questions were that they were something I would have difficulty answering even for projects that are thoroughly in development and could produce alphas to prove it. I came up with questions that I could answer easily, but not everyone would find my set of questions straightforward either.

[Auro-Cyanide]

Not many established creators actually use the WiP forum though. I think it would be cool if they did, but they generally have their own sites already.

My point is, what's the alternative? It's all well and good to say no to an idea, but what's the other options we have that will help people think and plan before they impulse post an idea? Preferably something that isn't going to be a nightmare to moderate. A questionnaire or form isn't foolproof, but it's a long way ahead of anything else mentioned so far. Then again, are people opposed to changes at all? Generally we end up going in circles about any suggested changes because people like certain things, and other people dislike them. I don't know if we can get anywhere like that (again, maybe that is some people's point).

[Aleema]

Can we please make this optional but encouraged? I really don't want to see every WIP thread look the same. I really enjoy the diversity that exists, and I know how to present my games on my own yet hit on all those subjects, as I'm sure most others do. There should be a checklist, instead of a questionnaire. That way, the developers can still opt to design their opening post how they want, but they still must include (for example):
- 2 screenshots
- synopsis, followed by a detailed plot (spoiler tags optional)
- estimated scope
- progress to date
- Game credits, resources used, information about those working on the game
- type of feedback desired
- links to a developer/game website

That sort of stuff, not in the form of questions. I'd do a lot better with requirements, and even if this question sheet is indeed optional and just a list of what you *should* have, it's currently implying that you must quote these exact questions so that you can answer them in your opening post. As a WIP reader, that's mind-numbingly boring. I do not want to get that "survey thread time!!!" feeling when I browse the WIP forum. I want the threads for games to reflect the developer's style, not a form they filled out.

[LateWhiteRabbit]

Can we please make this optional but encouraged? I really don't want to see every WIP thread look the same. I really enjoy the diversity that exists, and I know how to present my games on my own yet hit on all those subjects, as I'm sure most others do. There should be a checklist, instead of a questionnaire. That way, the developers can still opt to design their opening post how they want, but they still must include (for example):
- 2 screenshots
- synopsis, followed by a detailed plot (spoiler tags optional)
- estimated scope
- progress to date
- Game credits, resources used, information about those working on the game
- type of feedback desired
- links to a developer/game website

That sort of stuff, not in the form of questions. I'd do a lot better with requirements, and even if this question sheet is indeed optional and just a list of what you *should* have, it's currently implying that you must quote these exact questions so that you can answer them in your opening post. As a WIP reader, that's mind-numbingly boring. I do not want to get that "survey thread time!!!" feeling when I browse the WIP forum. I want the threads for games to reflect the developer's style, not a form they filled out.

Not a bad idea, having requirements instead of a form questionnaire. I mean, it basically functions the exact same way and elicits the same information, but isn't quite as rigid.

Not many established creators actually use the WiP forum though. I think it would be cool if they did, but they generally have their own sites already.

True, but ironically, those are also the people that best know how to use a WIP thread. And if you have an established website set up for a particular game, that already proves your dedication to the project.

I just hope all this results in significant changes and improvements, questionnaire or not, because WIP threads on other sites like Gutterzombie and Polycount are both fun and informative at the same time. They are a blast to read and follow. Not so much here, mainly because WIP threads go idle or abandoned, or dissolve into constant requests for art or help or technical problems.

But I like Aleema's suggestion as a middle ground - if requirements were required to post a WIP and enforced, it would work just as well as a questionnaire, though it would be more work on the mods.

And the more I think about it, while a redesign and restructuring is going to be helpful, most of what we are trying to accomplish is educating the community on how to develop and use WIP threads effectively.

[SusanTheCat]

I like the idea of calling it a checklist rather than a questionnaire is useful.

My thought is that you could say "Your first post in a new WIP thread should cover the following things:

- synopsis, followed by a detailed plot (spoiler tags optional)
- estimated scope
- progress to date
- Game credits, resources used, information about those working on the game
- type of feedback desired
- links to a developer/game website (if applicable)

You get guidelines that a moderator can use to remove a thread.
You don't have the cookie cutter feel for all the threads since the author is free to present any way they want.

You could also create optional checklists for different styles of game.

Susan

[Aiurax]

How about having requirements for an Idea and then requirements for a WiP?
Your game is an Idea if you meet 'these requirements' and a WiP if it meets 'these ones'.
And if your requirements are in the middle it could go in something like EoW (Evidence of Work). So that way people know it's not just an idea but it's not quite met the requirements for a WiP.
Also, having requirements for an Idea would make it so that it doesn't become a shambles in that part of the forum. Something like; has a logo, synopsis ('hook'), description of characters and can explain one major conflict in their game.
EoW would be more fleshed out: Being able to update since the Idea phase. Images of characters, 1 screenshot (with unfinished sprites, with/without background), samples of writing (and samples of code is optional).
And the WiP phase could show a lot more Visually. Because the games being made are, after all, very visual. So, being able to show coloured sprites (if you are having coloured sprites in your game), a lot more writing and screenshots of the game would mean it's a real working game in progress.
For those games that would not be very visually inclined (I know some games are more about the story) they can produce a short demo? I'm not entirely sure about that, though.
My idea probably needs a lot of flushing out. I'm sure it has a lot of holes in its logic.
But I just want to know what everyone thinks.

[PyTom]

Taking these in approximately reverse order.

Aleema, I think I mentioned that it could be posted in the first or second post in a thread. The idea is that it would be perfectly legit to have a freeform post introducing your project however you want to - and then a more structured post as the second thing in the thread. At least for some of the questions people have proposed - like the one about the sort of feedback wanted - this could serve to help structure the conversation, and knowing where to look for answers to some of the questions could help you find those answers more quickly.

When putting the initial list of questions together, I tried to avoid asking questions that are likely to be answered in a freeform post.

But the point is, if the end result is that the people who take the time to deal with the questionnaire are those who just really really really want to post a thread and will jump through any hoops necessary to try and make their project sound Good Enough so that they can post about it, and the people who are producing games throw up their hands at the hassle and move elsewhere, what good has it accomplished? That's something that has to be considered.

My objection to PyTom's original questions were that they were something I would have difficulty answering even for projects that are thoroughly in development and could produce alphas to prove it. I came up with questions that I could answer easily, but not everyone would find my set of questions straightforward either.

I think this a fair objection. I don't want to exclude legitimate story-based games from discussion here. Pretty much, I want to come up with a list of questions that are easy to answer if you have a story based game that is under development in any serious manner - but ones that would reveal if the game isn't actually being produced, or if there isn't a story (as opposed to a character list) yet.

So the question is - what is are the simplest question or question(s) that accomplish this goal? I kind of like asking the creator to reveal where the story goes after it's done introducing the characters, since I think that's the sort of thing that you pretty much need to know at the start of production, and it shouldn't be a huge spoiler to reveal things so early in the game. But I'm open to other ways of accomplishing this.

Everyone,

Back when I first started posting on the internet - before the web, when usenet ruled the day - before you could post, the newsreader would give you a prompt, something like:

This program posts news to thousands of machines throughout the entire civilized world. Your message will cost the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars to send everywhere. Please be sure you know what you are doing. Are you absolutely sure that you want to do this? [y / n]

The world has changed - the actual cost of posting is now pennies. But the cost of the time of everyone that reads, and those who might respond, is much higher, to the point where we might be back to the "hundreds if not thousands of dollars" level. That's worth it if we get a game in the end, but if that's never going to happen, then it's timewasteing.

My sense is that we don't have many - or even any - games that spend a lot of times as ideas, and then become games in production. In the best case, an idea quickly gets a core of a developers around it, and those developers begin doing the work required to make it a game. More likely, it goes nowhere.

An ideas thread is the response to this - we want to give ideas a short time in the sun, so that if there are people to back them, they get backed. Otherwise, we want them to fade from view, so people can give attention to ideas that have people actually working on them - the works in progress thread. I'm using the "Ideas dump" thread as a model for this, since that's the dynamic it has.

[Aleema]

Aleema, I think I mentioned that it could be posted in the first or second post in a thread. The idea is that it would be perfectly legit to have a freeform post introducing your project however you want to - and then a more structured post as the second thing in the thread. At least for some of the questions people have proposed - like the one about the sort of feedback wanted - this could serve to help structure the conversation, and knowing where to look for answers to some of the questions could help you find those answers more quickly.

Yes, but it's still required or the thread is deleted or something? Just hearing that gives me the "ugh why bother" mentality that papillon mentioned, and most of my concerns remain. I pretty much agree with the sentiment that what this mandate in general should do is educate developers on what a WIP thread should be, and do for them. Sure, you could churn out some BS for the questions rather easily (then we're getting BS), but being forced to makes you put it off and procrastinate. It's a deterrent, because it would be something I wouldn't look forward to. It's homework, basically. Allowing it to be optional-but-encouraged would help ensure quality answers.

I'm still very much in favor of not getting this information from developers in a form they fill out, but rather asking them to address these on their own.

edit: In the first set of questions proposed here, the one I most dread is the first. I hate talking about myself. I'm not important, my game is.