WiP Questionnaire

[PyTom]

It's a price.

I think that it's clear that creators gain value from having their works discussed in WiP - if they didn't then there's no point to the board, and I might as well just shut the thing down entirely. That value is feedback from the community, being able to gain publicity, getting praised - there are a lot of ways in which being on WiP benefits the creator.

I think part of the problem is that value is being diluted, that people who are not seriously making a game are getting the same sort of response as people that are. Having a deterrent is a feature, to some extent - it means that we'll get less threads created, but the ones that are created will correspond to actual works in progress - and I think that is one part of raising the level of discussion in WiP.

(I do think we need to strike a balance between benefiting the community and busywork, which is why we're trying to come up with a reasonable set of questions.)

[sheetcakeghost]

I'm going to reiterate a bit now that I can be more coherent.

The questions are great, but I think they should be a guideline for people wanting to get their idea in a more workable format, not a requirement to post in a thread.

We can have a "ideas" subform that allows people to toss their ideas in willy-nilly. This subforum could be in a special WiP forum that everyone can see and reply in, but new posts have to be accepted by a mod. If they have a fleshed enough idea (which we can point them to the guidelines to see what all a fleshed idea would have in it) they make their post, a mod goes in and reads it and if they feel it's got enough meat they approve it to be seen by everyone. If they feel it doesn't they can send a PM to the creator, give a few comments if they want to, and ask if the person wants to have it sent to the ideas subform for more community assistance in filling out the holes. I suspect that most of the time people will just keep it there and update it until it has enough to it to count as a WiP.

If the post has to be approved to be seen, people will automatically put more thought and effort into it. Plus this has the added benefit of having a forum with nothing but tons of varied examples on just what a WiP is.

[Deji]

For some reason, all this survey thing reminds me of a GDD (game Design Document). While it's something really useful for starting developers who want to get serious, I think it's a bit too much to make it a requirement for people that only want to make a game for the fun of it on their spare time =/ IMO, it takes away some of the organic fun part of it.
Just like other users, I'd probably just keep my development on my own blog if I had to fill out a specific survey =/

However, I do think there should be requirements that need to be met in order to post a WiP, like an "elevator pitch", like LaterWhiteRabbit said, screenshots showing assets, number of assets finished vs estimated, wordcount vs estimated wordcount, estimated length, estimated dev cycle length, etc.

About the ideas thread vs an ideas subforum, I personally would like an ideas subforum for people to hang out and bounce ideas on and off if they want. While I understand the talk about attention time and that time would be better spent discussing works in actual progress or even better if that time is spent actually making something, I think bouncing ideas off with people is also a fun part of the process.
At least in my case, the time I spend reading WiPs here vs the time I spend working on my own game is not going to change if you trim down the number of WiPs; I'll probably just go read/look at things somewhere else if I run out of things to read/look at over here as opposed as spending more time looking and replying to fewer things here.

[Auro-Cyanide]

Maybe a compromise is a good thing?

The questions can be used as guidelines to help people consider what they want to do. Something along the lines of "Hey there. So you want to make a WiP. That's great, but you should consider these points below to get an idea of whether you are ready" and then follow with the questions about if they know what is going on in their story and who is going to do what.

That can be followed by what they MUST have in their opening post, a check list that they can format as they wish that includes requirments and questions they must answer, like what feedback they are look for. This will give something for the moderators to check off so they don't have to decipher free form and something for everyone to use as a guideline, while still allowing people creative freedom.

I do understand why people want an idea sub-forum, and it might not be too bad. The thing would be it would have to revolve around feedback as it would be about people trying to build upon their ideas to create a project, otherwise a single thread for thinking out loud might be more appropriate. I also think it's a very bad idea to move an idea thread to WiP because it would be a mess. They should have the idea thread locked and recreate a new WiP thread following the same formula as everyone else.

[Celianna]

I agree with Aleema and Deji, having it as a guideline would be fine - having it as a requirement would make me abandon my perfectly valid project thread and just continue posting on my own developer blog.

You're not encouraging anyone by forcing them to answer questions that they don't want to answer/have already answered/can't answer.

I also think it's a very bad idea to move an idea thread to WiP because it would be a mess. They should have the idea thread locked and recreate a new WiP thread following the same formula as everyone else.

No ... quite the opposite, it's more of a mess to create two threads (something I don't quite understand in this forum is that you have a WIP, and when it's complete, you make a new thread in the complete games section instead of just moving your WIP to it). All you'd have to do is make the OP presentable to be allowed to move it to the WIP. Why would they have to create an entirely new thread for it? This way they can at least keep their feedback in one place.

[Auro-Cyanide]

I also think it's a very bad idea to move an idea thread to WiP because it would be a mess. They should have the idea thread locked and recreate a new WiP thread following the same formula as everyone else.

No ... quite the opposite, it's more of a mess to create two threads (something I don't quite understand in this forum is that you have a WIP, and when it's complete, you make a new thread in the complete games section instead of just moving your WIP to it). All you'd have to do is make the OP presentable to be allowed to move it to the WIP. Why would they have to create an entirely new thread for it? This way they can at least keep their feedback in one place.

I think it would be a poor reflection on the WiP topic if the first couple pages are a mess of ideas with no direction that may or may not actually represent what the final project is about. I think it would be confusing for new comers to read because they will have no idea what people are talking about (because the first post would no doubt change and not match everything directly after it). That's why I think it would be better for people to create a topic anew with the correct information so everything in the thread stays relevant to the actual project, not whatever idea it started off as. It's like scribbling out half a drawing and presenting the other half on the same piece of paper. Archiving the locked threads isn't a mess to anyone, and the information is preserved. But that's my personal opinion towards organisation.

[Celianna]

Yeah, having people trying to hammer out an idea isn't going to messy at all. I think it would be a poor reflection on the WiP topic if the first couple pages are a mess of ideas with no direction that may or may not actually represent what the final project is about.

Really? Usually the first few pages will be nothing short of; "Awesome!" "Looking forward to this!" "OMG this sounds so goood!". But it's usually the latest pages that get read and have actual substance to their posts - not the first ones. Who cares what the replies of the members are when it's really all about the OP? You can't punish the topic for the member's replies.

My problem with suggestions over requirements come from a moderation point of view. How will people moderate something that doesn't have clear guidelines? What happens if someone argues over a subjective point? I can see a lot of drama coming from not having clear rules. Moderators will be doing this in their free time, I'm not inclined to make their lives really hard.

I'm a mod at a bigger forum than this that also handles projects. We have 1 mod on the project forum that has to accept each and every topic that goes through it - she's doing rather well and even takes entire weeks off - there's not much workload here. There's simple guidelines people follow when creating the topic but it's not required, and the mod will judge the rest (and you can't say it's 'hard' to judge whether or not a project has done real effort or if it's just an idea). It's a system that works.

Requirements puts people off. Especially those that would like to design their OP with enough information that is suitable to their project, without having to be forced to include specific things.

[Auro-Cyanide]

@Celianna, I honestly see your point, I just think that doing stuff that way won't actually change what already exists apart from possibly having drama when a mod moves a thread. Which might be the point. It does seem that a lot of people are really happy with how things are, and maybe they are fine staying that way. Rules already exist suggesting people have content before posting, they just aren't policed. I don't think mods alone will be enough to change what happens without guidelines to follow that everyone knows about. Maybe I'm just being pessimistic and it'll all going swimmingly though.

I've already stated I'm fine for whatever changes go through, so be what may. I'm not the only one who uses the forum and while I would like to see it be more focused, others see differently, which is fine. I'll be were I feel most comfortable at the end of the day.

[sheetcakeghost]

I'd like to see more focus myself. I don't really look over the WiP thread anymore mostly because the stuff that I have commented in never get past the idea stage. (That's not counting the ideas I've offered my services to only to be the only one to get any real work done before the creator realizes this is more than they can handle, but that's an issue of me not being able to pick out the people who just posted in the heat of passion.) I don't enjoy feeling like I've wasted my time. But then maybe I'm just petty.

[PyTom]

I'd like to see more focus myself.

What does focus mean, to you. I also get the feeling that the forums have lost focus - but it's hard to articulate exactly why I think that.

[sheetcakeghost]

We've been addressing it through most of the topic, really. It isn't that there is a lack of content, plenty of people get plenty of ideas, even really great and original ones. But even with all the guides, and tutorials, and helpful comments in posts, it's hard to understand how much work is involved.

You see something like a VN and think, this is fun and looks really simple, I can make one of these! You do your research and find the program the suits you best. You download it, read the tutorial, get the swing of how to make it go, and you're excited. You're going to make something and it's going to be awesome and everyone will love it. Everyone's mileage may vary from here.

You go to the forum of the program you're using and you post your idea. You get a lot of feedback and support, maybe find some folks who want to work on it with you, and you feel great. This is going to be a lot of fun! You've got tons of steam and you're really sure it'll never run out.

You get your story all worked out, you decide how you want to make the game, and you start to think of all the awesome things you can do with it. Now you have to get to work and here is where the focus seems to get lost. It is a LOT of work. More than was expected even if you took heed from the veterans telling you not to overwhelm yourself. Coding is a fickle mistress prone to tantrums and spasms and bouts of speaking in tongues. It takes a LOT of writing to do anything that isn't utterly linear. Absolutely everything needs art. Graphical user interface might come prepackaged, but there are sprites, and backgrounds, and menu cards. What if you want a special mouse pointer? It'd be cool if you could make it spin when it rolls over a button. Did you break it again? What does that code error mean? You have to write all those branching paths? Oh! It'd be really cool if you put a calender in here! Then you can have holiday events! Your characters would look so cute with Christmas hats on! Oh hey, a new video game is out. You'll take a break from this and play it. How long has it been since you touched the script? You'll get to it later.

That ramble there is a touch autobiographical with elements of the things I've seen just about every newcomer with an idea that I've ever helped do. (With the exception of Aleema and Starling, but they're hardly newcomers.) They lose focus because they don't have a plan, they don't have a plan because they don't know how to really make one, and you can't just make a template for them because everyone's creative process is unique to them. Coders think like coders, artists think like artists, writers think like writers, and if you do all three then kudos tiny godling, may I rub your head for three wishes?

TLDR: I think everyone loses focus because, while there are plenty of tutorials telling you how to make your game, newcomers really don't know how to make one. If they're lucky like me they'll find someone who isn't a newcomer to help them along, keep them motivated, and let them get the experience they need to make their own creative planning method. Someone that understands that making a game takes longer than a couple days in your free time, and depending on how big you want it, can even take years of work, writing, rewriting, coding, debugging, art tweaking, background editing, and learning where your limits are. It also helps if everyone involved is mature enough to compromise with little fuss.

But hey, I have yet to actually finish a game that I was the lead writer in, so what do I know?

[Auro-Cyanide]

We've been addressing it through most...

Thiiiiiiiiiiiiis.

It's my biggest problem with people who just want to have fun. I have no problem if people wanting to just mess around with Ren'Py, or those who create projects only to abandon them later EXCEPT they don't just waste their own time, they often drag other people in with them and work and time ends up getting lost because people haven't stopped and thought. All that writing, all the art, all the coding, all the music, all the TIME, absolutely pointless. Which is fine if you aren't the one caring, but what happens if someone worked hard on it, like Serenity Frost? Just because someone didn't plan? Because they didn't listen to the multitude of people telling them how hard it was, how long it will take, how difficult it will be? All the people who help and comment are wasting their time if the person doing the project hasn't thought about what they are doing and it saddens me because it makes the community that much more skeptical about new projects, that little more wary of commenting or offering help, that little more tired of everything but what they themselves are working on. It's sad.

[LateWhiteRabbit]

We've been addressing it through most...

Thiiiiiiiiiiiiis.

It's my biggest problem with people who just want to have fun. I have no problem if people wanting to just mess around with Ren'Py, or those who create projects only to abandon them later EXCEPT they don't just waste their own time, they often drag other people in with them and work and time ends up getting lost because people haven't stopped and thought. All that writing, all the art, all the coding, all the music, all the TIME, absolutely pointless. Which is fine if you aren't the one caring, but what happens if someone worked hard on it, like Serenity Frost? Just because someone didn't plan? Because they didn't listen to the multitude of people telling them how hard it was, how long it will take, how difficult it will be? All the people who help and comment are wasting their time if the person doing the project hasn't thought about what they are doing and it saddens me because it makes the community that much more skeptical about new projects, that little more wary of commenting or offering help, that little more tired of everything but what they themselves are working on. It's sad.

This. Every word of it.

This is my main reason for trying to force people to do a lot of work and planning and question answering before posting a WIP. The reason I believe we need to be stringent and maybe, yes, even discouraging of new WIPs. I don't have much more to add because Auro-Cyanide said it better than I ever could. But this is the reason the forum has lost focus.

[Deji]

So... we basically need people to show "us" they have thought things through, they know exactly what they're doing, how they're going to do it and have an estimate about how long should take them to do it before they can post on the WiP, so they don't waste their or anybody else's time doing vaporware?
Sounds good.

Again, I'll go with requirements rather than a mandatory questionnaire that needs to go answered in the opening post (o second post). I do think it'd be a good thing to have that sort of questionnaire available for people in the mandatory "READ THIS BEFORE POSTING" sticky thread, not for people to actually answer it in a post, but to help people plan their projects better before attempting to post them; kind of like those questionnaires to flesh out characters and stuff.

[Sapphi]

I agree totally with Auro's sentiment about abandoned WIPs. It is very disheartening to see them and it really does put me off looking at new WIP threads, or really caring about them. If I get let down repeatedly, I tend not to get as excited because in the back of my mind I'm thinking, "Don't hold your breath, it's not going to happen anyway." I'm not going to spend my time thinking of how to help you when in the back of my mind I am predicting that in a few week's time, I'm going to see "Actually, this is on hold because I have another project/I have too many obligations/I don't feel like working on it right now." This is a terrible thing to happen to a forum where the goal is constructive feedback.

I like Deji's suggestion of the READ BEFORE POSTING sticky thread, because it would help eliminate that "survey time" feeling Aleema mentioned, and because mods could still refer back to it when making judgment calls since reading it was technically a rule.