Lemma Soft Forums

In the forum mandates thread, I broached the idea of having a questionnaire that people should fill out when posting their game to the new work in progress forum. Since there wasn't any opposition to that part of the idea, I thought I would start a thread to begin developing the questionnaire.

I actually don't have a huge number of questions that I want to put on it - I'm kind of relying on the community to come up with questions to ask. I do have a few, though, so I'll begin posting them. Proposed questions are in bold, proposed instructions are in italics.

Who is working on this project?

Optionally, tell us a little about yourself.

The idea behind this question is to let us know get a feel for who is working on the project, and what their skill level is. I don't think it's unreasonable for a creator with a history of successful projects to be given the benefit of the doubt when creating a new project. On the other hand, if a creator without any experience proposes a huge work, we might be more skeptical of him.

When did you start working on this project? Working is defined as producing assets (such as writing and art) that will be used in the final game.

If you haven't been working on a project for at least a week, please consider waiting longer to create a thread about your game.

This isn't a hard-and-fast rule, as I think we can be flexible for LD48-style games. (Although I think a combined thread for those might be more appropriate.) But I think it usually makes sense to wait until at least a week of production is over before even considering posting here - longer may be better. That gives the creator time to flesh out their idea.

It also means we're not subject to threads with a high infant mortality - things that seemed like a good idea but were quickly forgotten, games that are impossible to produce, concepts that the creator hasn't put any time in on, and so on.

Please describe the first few acts of the game, once the characters have finished meeting. Do you know what the ending will be?

For a game to go from being an idea to an actual work, it needs to have some sort of a story - a sequence of events that happens to the characters. Here, we're asking you to show that you have a fleshed out story, rather than just a cast list and a setting.

You may wish to enclose the story in spoiler tags, so that it won't be read unexpectedly.

I think this raises the bar of entry a bit, so we can focus on _works_, rather than just ideas with assets.

How big is the game?

Please give us an idea of how large the game will be, both in playing time and the amount of assets that need to be produced.

The idea here is to help us get an idea of if a game is realistic or not. If someone comes out of nowhere proposing a large game, we'll require a somewhat large amount of progress that if a small game is being produced by an established team of creators.

What has been finished so far?

Please let us know the amount of writing, art, music, and/or programming that has been finished so far.

This gives us a feel for how far along the game is - we're more likely to allow a thread for a game that's nearly done, than one where the only actual production is a pair of character designs. I think this will also help more complete titles gain interest from forum members - I personally get a lot more excited when I see a game that someone has put a lot of work into.

What tools are you using?

Please let us know the tools you are using to make the game.

This question helps us judge how realistic a creator's plan is, given the tools they plan to use to accomplish it. Making 100 backgrounds in sketchup seems like it could be feasible - making those same backgrounds in MS paint is suicide. Using Ren'PY to make a VN is sane, using it to make a first person shooter is more than a bit questionable.

I want to just make it really explicit that Ren'PY vs non-Ren'Py is a non-issue in the WiP forum - we should be treating all VN engines equally, subject to their limitations. (Using Novelty to make a beat-em-up is also a non-starter.)


So those are some initial suggestions. I'd like other ideas of questions we can ask people, and also some feedback on the tone of the survey - is it too combative, will it scare new creators off to the point where they will just give up? I don't think it's really necessary to ask the obvious questions - what's the title? who are the main characters? where do they live? - as those are things people cover pretty well already. The idea of the survey is to make WIP/Idea threads a bit more comprehensive.

I'm also going to suggest a program where people can run a WiP past the moderators before it gets posted.

I think the 'tools' and 'how-much-have-you-done' questions are probably going to be the most telling when it comes to determining if a project is actually a WIP or not. I like those ones.

Some of us are pretty bad at estimating playing time; I think *most* people are bad at estimating what percentage of the work is actually done. Perhaps if you give some category options to pick from rather than asking simply 'how big'?

Many of these questions seem more designed to try and help spot redflags in obviously unrealistic designs than to meaningfully represent actual works or be interesting to read as WIP topics. Do you really want to know that the 'music' folder of my sim contains 25 separate files? How is that interesting?

What do you mean, 'how much programming'? Hours? Size of existing script files? How much art, is that art that actually goes into the game or the vast folders of concepts and interations that no one but me and Spiky should be seeing? How much writing... lint doesn't cover a lot of things when you're doing more complicated programming!

I know I'm not likely to get hassled over these questions, but I tend to think that if I have this much trouble answering them others will too.

A lot of games aren't going to want to tell you what the story is, and certainly not what the ending or endings are... you might be willing to say "It's about growing up and dealing with how friendships change as people age" but you probably wouldn't want to list all of the shock revelations that take place from your parents divorce to your best friend becoming a drug dealer to your own taking a job you once swore you never would, because knowing these things would drastically dilute the experience. It is useful to ask whether the AUTHOR knows what the point is, yes, to check for one of those redflag meandering ideas, but being forced to reveal it, even in spoiler tags, is not appropriate for most stories.


I'm going to brainstorm a little here for a sort of questionnaire that would be easy to fill out and still produce something that would interest people looking at it; watch this space. This is quickly dashed off and I'm quite sleepy, but I'm trying to aim for something that will let readers get a quick overview of what they're in for.

What gameplay-style of game are you working on? (Visual novel, dating sim, shooter, etc)


What genre-category of game are you working on? (Horror, mystery, romance, action, GxB, BxG, Sci-Fi, etc)


What tools are you using to make the game?


Who's working on the game, and is the team complete or are you expecting to add more people?


How long has it been in development?


What is the status of the game's character art?

a. I don't know yet
b. I have placeholder art, I intend to replace it with:
c. I am using free resources from:
d. I am using stock resources
e. My characters are being drawn by _______. Currently completed: X of Y
f. My game design doesn't require character art.

(repeat similar question for events, backgrounds, and music)


About how much script / game text has been written?


How settled is the game's story?

a. I have a concept but I'm not really sure where it's going.
b. I've written the beginning and the rest works itself out as it goes along.
c. I know where it starts and I know where I want it to end, the rest is hazy.
d. I have a general outline of the whole structure.
e. I'm adapting an existing work.
f. I've already finished writing.


What is the status of the game's programming?

a. I don't know how to code, I need to find a programmer.
b. I am making a standard VN so it probably won't need much programming. I only need a little help.
c. I am making a standard VN and I know how to program that.
d. I am confident in the team programmer and the major functions are already being tested


How long do you expect your game to be? Pick whichever sounds closest.

a. Fifteen minutes.
b. Two hours.
c. Ten hours.
d. Thirty hours.

papillon wrote:Some of us are pretty bad at estimating playing time;

I would judge by how long one sit through is then add the number of endings.

Examples
30 min with 3 endings
Several hours with 10+ endings

But even that is hard to judge while the game is still being created.

papillon wrote:Perhaps if you give some category options to pick from rather than asking simply 'how big'?

What about:
Planned
Started
Mid Way
Almost Done
Finished

Susan

I think these questions are a bit overkill. Many projects are a result of ideas swimming around in our heads for years. (So the Ideas Corner is recommended).

Sometimes I have a theme or plot device I want to explore, but instead of building an entire new game around it, I just join an existing project or collaborate with a creator who can express that idea better. So my idea still lives on in some form via other assets, such as the art or music.

Projects get on the highway to completion when the stars align and all the ideas and the means to execute them become doable.

I think the most important point to make is to ask what is the aspect of my project which needs the most work/help on? (If the answer is "everything" then might as well give up). Artists have made games with minimal text and no music. Writers have made games with stock art. Programmers have made games with mostly gameplay. Once people see what other people can do on their own, then they are more willing to collaborate and that's when the bigger more well-rounded projects start happening.

I think the main issue is people immediately wanting to become Team Leaders of some major endeavor. The same thing basically happened in the Unity3D forums but to an even greater extreme (kids trying to recruit everyone else for their own game, and the career programmers going wtf who is gonna do that for free?)

papillon wrote:It is useful to ask whether the AUTHOR knows what the point is, yes, to check for one of those redflag meandering ideas, but being forced to reveal it, even in spoiler tags, is not appropriate for most stories.

What kind of worries me is that we sometimes get people that confuse a setting and a list of characters for a story, and who would answer the question in the affirmative all the time.

I think I might have phrased my question poorly, since I sort of combined two things into one question. Knowing the ending is interesting, but I think the real important criteria for a WiP thread is being able to do something with the characters once we're done meeting them. So maybe two questions:

How do we meet the characters?

What happens in the story once we're done meeting the characters?

Act 1 isn't a huge spoiler, but I think having an idea of what happens in the first act is something that separates an idea from a project.

I second DaFool's suggestion... I think it would be helpful to ask a question along the lines of
"In terms of this project, what are your strengths and weaknesses?"
"What aspects do you like about your work? In what areas would you like to see yourself improve?"

In terms of characters and story, I kind of like
"How do these characters fit into the overarching story?" for character-driven plots, since "What happens in the story once we're done meeting the characters?" seems like it would be better for action-driven plots. But maybe that's just splitting hairs.

I don't like this one bit, I think you're way too focused on weeding out projects that are simply; 'Here's three characters, and they go to high school! That's about it.' when this could be done by simply creating two separate forums (one for WIPs, one for early ideas), and that no one has to feel pressured into answering some sort of silly questionnaire. Moderator approval would be a lot more effective than filling out questions as well.

All a project really needs is an introduction, a description of the setting, and some character information (if they have any).

I'd also like to point out that by putting emphasis on VNs, you're singling out all other types of games, and people might begin to think their project isn't allowed because you only mentioned VNs.

Celianna wrote:I don't like this one bit, I think you're way too focused on weeding out projects that are simply; 'Here's three characters, and they go to high school! That's about it.' when this could be done by simply creating two separate forums (one for WIPs, one for early ideas), and that no one has to feel pressured into answering some sort of silly questionnaire. Moderator approval would be a lot more effective than filling out questions as well.

All a project really needs is an introduction, a description of the setting, and some character information (if they have any).

I'd also like to point out that by putting emphasis on VNs, you're singling out all other types of games, and people might begin to think their project isn't allowed because you only mentioned VNs.

I think the idea is to stop people and force them to think for a moment, not nessecerialy weeding out any type of game. The worst thing that will happen is that you might have to put a bit more time into figuring out what you want to do. I think getting people to self-evaluate their idea is a good thing.

I'm also against people just having characters/setting type entries because we just get back to the problem of there not being anything to comment on and no indication of whether or not the person has any idea what they are doing. It is very, very easy to come up with ideas. They are a dime a dozen. It's another matter entirely to impliment them. I think the questionaire is meant to ask people if they have a clear idea and plan for what they are going to do. If not, than their idea is just that, an idea. It isn't a work yet. And that's fine, it just needs a bit more effort put into it to make it grow. Then people should be able to enter no problem.

The problem with having just two forums is people have very different ideas of what ready is. Some people might start off thinking that they can do a project only to find they have bitten off more than they can chew and end up quitting a month down the road. A questionaire will give people a standard and force people to consider their actions. You aren't being banned from the WiP forum for all eternity if you fail after all, there isn't a dire consequence. All you would have to do is have enough patience to complete some work, which isn't a bad thing.

As for the actual questionaire I like the suggestions being made. My only thought is that if you wish not to come off intimadating, make sure the questions are asked in a friendly and conversational tone. It will go a long way to help quench initial fears.

Celianna wrote:I don't like this one bit, I think you're way too focused on weeding out projects that are simply; 'Here's three characters, and they go to high school! That's about it.' when this could be done by simply creating two separate forums (one for WIPs, one for early ideas), and that no one has to feel pressured into answering some sort of silly questionnaire. Moderator approval would be a lot more effective than filling out questions as well.

All a project really needs is an introduction, a description of the setting, and some character information (if they have any).

I'd also like to point out that by putting emphasis on VNs, you're singling out all other types of games, and people might begin to think their project isn't allowed because you only mentioned VNs.

It is weeding out projects that aren't ready to show to the world. In your example of 3 character going to high school, a lot of VN makers will get that far, give the characters a name and personality, and soon find they have no idea what they want to do or say with those characters. Even slice of life stories have a theme or meaning and character driven action.

We have too many WIPs already where someone got an exciting idea one day, made a thread about it, and then realized they didn't know what to do, or found they had a better idea a week later, or more commonly, found that a week later it didn't seem exciting anymore. If it is important enough for forum goers to spend their time reading about someone's game, it should be important enough for that creator to spend the extra time to flesh out the few things the questionnaire is asking for. If they are truly committed to putting out a game, it shouldn't matter if they have to wait a week or two to post a WIP on it. If they need the constant attention and encouragement of a WIP to produce anything, frankly, their game was probably never going to be finished anyway.

Auro-Cyanide wrote: I think the idea is to stop people and force them to think for a moment, not nessecerialy weeding out any type of game. The worst thing that will happen is that you might have to put a bit more time into figuring out what you want to do. I think getting people to self-evaluate their idea is a good thing.

Exactly.

If we have two different forums, one for ideas and one for WIPs, the ideas section will just run into the same problem we have now with the current WIPs. So cluttered and bloated with content that no one can shift through it. I don't think it is asking much for people to have more than an idea before they post something. All the suggested questionnaire questions so far are very basic, and shouldn't be any strain at all if you've put any time into your project.

I like all the questions suggested so far, but I would add a couple:

Specifically, what type of feedback are you looking for?
These are the areas - story, art, characters, design, or something else - where you are looking for the most constructive criticism to help you improve your game.

This question is a heads up for the Creator that a WIP thread is for feedback. If we want the WIP threads to be useful, there must be feedback of a constructive manner. Too often I see a lot of threads stating "Comments and Critiques Welcome!" when what the poster means is "Stoke my ego by telling me everything you love!" WIP threads by their nature MUST be divorced from ego. If a creator wants no feedback they are better off producing their game in secrecy and then satisfying their need for attention in a "Released Game" thread. Asking specifically what feedback the creator is after also helps direct those initial postings in response, giving a spring board to start the conversation on the WIP - a defense against initial postings along the lines of "Sounds cool." or "That character is so cute." etc.

What is your game's 'hook'? What makes your game interesting and special?
This is what you would tell a person to get them to play your game if you only had 30 seconds to convince them. The shorter the better.

This is the famous "elevator pitch". It is tremendously helpful, both to the creator, and to a potential audience. It forces a creator to define what exactly their game is about - it's theme and core. For an audience, this is what gets people excited about a game. Too often in WIPs creators will post a wall of information, that while not bad, forces everyone to read a massive entry to decide whether or not they are interested in following the game's progress. As was brought up before in other threads, attention is at a premium, and a hook or pitch at the top of a post will help forum goers quickly decide whether or not they wish to read all the additional information.

As an example of one game's hook or pitch - we have Silent Hill 1, the unknown PS1 game that launced a franchise. This is how the game was concisely described to interest a potential audience:

A young man searching for his daughter, struggling to exist in a place between reality and hell. A town hiding gruesome, dark powers. Follow a trail of blood and mutilation to snatch a loved one from the clutches of a demonic power. Enter an alternate dimension where death is no escape. Welcome to the madness that is Silent Hill.

Swap out 'young man' for 'young woman' and you have the same pitch given to Hollywood execs to make the movie.

I feel this is a tremendously important question for creators to answer because it tells us so much about their game. To produce a hook or pitch, the creator has to know their game's theme, why people would want to play it, and what the driving narrative thread is in their story.

Setting the definition of what a WiP is will likely help a LOT in terms of helping people understand how much work should be in it before they can call it anything besides an idea. This questionnaire will also probably help tons in doing that, but I like Papillon's version of it the best so far. This could just be because I'm a writer. While I understand the work put in art and coding, there's a reason I'm not also an artist or coder.

There is a disconnect for me when it comes to questions like "How big is the game?" and "What tools are you using?". So if I answered them I would give you a word count and then list my word processing software (with mild confusion as I'd fail to see how this mattered) and Ren'py. Someone who has their mind set up like an artist would probably give you file size and their art programs. And a coder would, I don't know, list some code related things along with their editing tools.

What I'm trying to get at here is that there shouldn't be just one blanket questionnaire for all three sides of the game making pendulum. I'm not suggesting we have three different ones, just make a point of sorting them as questions for coders, questions for writers, and questions for artists. That way each person who takes care of that knows how they're supposed to answer it.

I feel as though I'm rambling and my point isn't making it past the gate like it should. So let me just take a stab at making an example of what I'm talking about here.

__________________________________________________

General

Please provide a brief summary (your hook) of your game's plot, setting, and cast.

Who is working on this project and will you be adding new people?

What gameplay-style of game are you working on? (Visual novel, dating sim, shooter, etc)

What genre-category of game are you working on? (Horror, mystery, romance, action, GxB, BxG, Sci-Fi, etc)

When did you start working on this project? [Working is defined as producing assets (such as writing and art) that will be used in the final game.]

What tools are you using to make the game? (Editing software, art programs, etc.)

How long has it been in development?

Writing

Please provide an outline of the script that gives everyone a good idea of what each act will be about. Include the endings if you can. (Put spoiler tags around things you wish to keep secret.)

About how much script/game text has been written?

How settled is the game's story?
a. I have a concept but I'm not really sure where it's going.
b. I've written the beginning and the rest works itself out as it goes along.
c. I know where it starts and I know where I want it to end, the rest is hazy.
d. I have a general outline of the whole structure.
e. I'm adapting an existing work.
f. I've already finished writing.

How long do you expect your game to be? Pick whichever sounds closest.
a. Fifteen minutes.
b. Two hours.
c. Ten hours.
d. Thirty hours.

Coding

What is the status of the game's programming?
a. I don't know how to code, I need to find a programmer.
b. I am making a standard VN so it probably won't need much programming. I only need a little help.
c. I am making a standard VN and I know how to program that.
d. I am confident in the team programmer and the major functions are already being tested

If needed, could you provide a working demo of the game?

How far away do you think you will be until proper beta testing can be done?

Art

What is the status of the game's character art?
a. I don't know yet
b. I have placeholder art, I intend to replace it with:
c. I am using free resources from:
d. I am using stock resources
e. My characters are being drawn by _______. Currently completed: X of Y
f. My game design doesn't require character art.

(repeat similar question for events, backgrounds, and music)

How much space do you suspect the art will take up?

Other

Will your game have sound effects and music? Where do you plan on getting them and how much space do you think they'll take up?

Will you game have voice acting? How much will be acted? Have you done casting for this already? How do you think this will change the file size?

Specifically, what type of feedback are you looking for?

__________________________________________

Needs cleaning, but I think you get the idea now.

LateWhiteRabbit wrote:If we have two different forums, one for ideas and one for WIPs, the ideas section will just run into the same problem we have now with the current WIPs. So cluttered and bloated with content that no one can shift through it. I don't think it is asking much for people to have more than an idea before they post something. All the suggested questionnaire questions so far are very basic, and shouldn't be any strain at all if you've put any time into your project.

We could just make an ideas topic and let that blow out of proportion, but there's a good chance of ideas getting lost in it and the point of sharing an idea is to help get it developed further. I say let an idea forum run rampant and put a timer on the topics. When the timer expires move them to an idea archive or something so the creator can look at it again later when they might have the time or desire to revisit it. Or perhaps have it send an automated PM to the topic's creator to see if they want it archived or deleted. Personally, I have a few backburner WiPs that I wouldn't mind archiving so that I don't lose the progress I made on the research for them and have to start over.

LateWhiteRabbit wrote: If we have two different forums, one for ideas and one for WIPs, the ideas section will just run into the same problem we have now with the current WIPs. So cluttered and bloated with content that no one can shift through it.

I really do not see what the problem with this idea. One forum for all the random crap that gets made, and mostly forgotten, and one forum where people are making actual progress on, what's so bad about that? If the early idea turns into a more concrete project, then they could PM a mod to move their topic to the real WIP forum.

So what if it becomes a mess? There's always going to be made-up-on-the-spot projects, so you might as well give them their own forum where they can die a peaceful death - or perhaps bloom into something more serious.

@Serenity Frost: I'd only be able to answer half of your questions. This is the problem with the questionnaire: it's too defined and basically only about visual novels.

Celianna wrote:

LateWhiteRabbit wrote: If we have two different forums, one for ideas and one for WIPs, the ideas section will just run into the same problem we have now with the current WIPs. So cluttered and bloated with content that no one can shift through it.

I really do not see what the problem with this idea. One forum for all the random crap that gets made, and mostly forgotten, and one forum where people are making actual progress on, what's so bad about that? If the early idea turns into a more concrete project, then they could PM a mod to move their topic to the real WIP forum.

So what if it becomes a mess? There's always going to be made-up-on-the-spot projects, so you might as well give them their own forum where they can die a peaceful death - or perhaps bloom into something more serious.

@Serenity Frost: I'd only be able to answer half of your questions. This is the problem with the questionnaire: it's too defined and basically only about visual novels.

I think PyTom is trying to avoid having energy and time expended into an area that goes nowhere, like random ideas. If people can't take the time to think things through and work out if it's doable, then what's the point of talking about it? I think the whole point of these mandates is to focus on development of games, not the creation of ideas.

As for the VN thing, it's probably pretty natural since people are talking from their own experience. I guess it will be up to the admin to decide what does and does not constitute 'story based game'.

Auro-Cyanide wrote:I think PyTom is trying to avoid having energy and time expended into an area that goes nowhere, like random ideas.

There isn't much effort to be done by splitting it up into two forums, let one be chaos, and one be regulated through mod approval. You don't even need to look at the early ideas forum, just let it run its course, and the only time you have to put effort into it, is when people PM and request their topic to be moved to the real WIP forum - and hey, that's something mods do.

Celianna wrote:

Auro-Cyanide wrote:I think PyTom is trying to avoid having energy and time expended into an area that goes nowhere, like random ideas.

There isn't much effort to be done by splitting it up into two forums, let one be chaos, and one be regulated through mod approval. You don't even need to look at the early ideas forum, just let it run its course, and the only time you have to put effort into it, is when people PM and request their topic to be moved to the real WIP forum - and hey, that's something mods do.

I don't think he means just the admins and mods, he means as a community. Time spent talking about ideas would probablt be better spent actually working on one. Talking about idea is a lot of fun, but it doesn't get you very far at the end of the day. At some point you have to bite the bullet and actually commit to work if you want to get things done. It is probably a bit hard on the people who prefer to talk about ideas than do something with them, but I think focusing on development and producing actual content is more benefical to everyone in the long wrong.

The idea of having an ideas thread as opposed to a forum was take the focus away from indivdual ideas and instead focus on the ideas that have people working behind them. These ideas that have turned into projects are much more important because they are at least trying to get somewhere. I don't think a game development forum should be overly concerned with things that aren't actually in development. I don't see the point in having a forum in choas, it seems a bit redundant.

The questions preposed make sense to me, even as an artist. I'm aware of what else goes into game making, and I'm very aware of the skills I lack. I would have to make up for this with prior planning and/or team work. I think it's good to think about how the work is going to get done and who is going to do it. What happens if you can't find an artist/coder/writer? What are your plans in that instance.