Ideas to make a more mainstream VN

[DaFool]

There are three tiers that I classify my future projects with from order of most mainstream to most niche:

1.) Console-style. Following the structure of Phoenix Wright and 999, these tend to be plot-heavy mystery stories with gameplay (puzzles, collecting 'evidence'). This is what I call the true VN mainstream. You can safely market these as 'adventures'. This is where I put my best foot forward as a developer, get the best writer around, and while the graphics can be mildly anime-style or classic cartoonish as long as they're not too stylized. The structure can be more open-ended (western interactive fiction) or more linear (Japanese visual novels). It is hoped this will pull in players who are not Japanophiles.

2.) Otaku-pandering. This is where all my H projects fall under. Since I'll be drawing 'sexy cartoon girls' anyway, might as well make them appeal to the core demographic that appreciates sexy cartoon girls in the first place. This is where I try to mimic the Japanese aesthetic as close as possible. The aim is to make it so undistinguishable from a translated JVN that the fickle JVN player will be willing to try it out and be impressed.

3.) Personal experiments. This is where I just need to let off steam and express something that's been bugging my brain lately. I don't want to spend too much effort on it since I know it's not really marketable. Perhaps some of these experiments can evolve into techniques I can use in the other tiers.

It is thoroughly feasible that a larger company will be making more of 1.). Until then, most EVNs made in these parts are just doujin, made by some "random person / team on the internet". Thus they will not be mainstream by default. 4chan has a lot of pull and were able to draw people who were not originally into VNs... however the product they served are steeped in a niche subculture.

I think what will make the VN format mainstream is if somebody besides Konami/Capcom (e.g. Activision or Ubisoft) decides to start making more 999s and Phoenix Wrights.

[redeyesblackpanda]

I think what will make the VN format mainstream is if somebody besides Konami/Capcom (e.g. Activision or Ubisoft) decides to start making more 999s and Phoenix Wrights.

I was going to mention something just like that. ^_^'

Phoenix Wright and 999 have been fairly popular. I was into Pheonix Wright before I realized it was a VN. I think something that those VNs have that a lot of VNs don't have is that they are very high action. I don't think the average person likes slice of life stuff (I love that stuff though ). They're looking for a game that feels very different from normal life and seems to be filled with action. One thing to note is that in Pheonix Wright, there was very little time in between choices/puzzles/other interactive stuff. I've heard a lot of people complain about having to read too much (I've even heard people complain about Final Fantasy games this way ). I think mainstream VNs are more interactive. The normal player wants to feel like they're in control of everything... Saying this breaks my heart...

[Anna]

I've heard a lot of people complain about having to read too much (I've even heard people complain about Final Fantasy games this way :| ). I think mainstream VNs are more interactive. The normal player wants to feel like they're in control of everything... Saying this breaks my heart...

About Final Fantasy games? Really? Holy crap ^^;...

Anyway, isn't that because you're targeting a game audience then? Give a gamer expecting a game an interactive book and he will be displeased :/.

Everyone keeps talking about adding more interactivity - but then tell me how you would do so, while not adding some kind of useless minigame. I'm curious. The only thing besides choices which I can think of is point-and-click stuff and walking around an area (think of Ace Attorney Investigations).

[redeyesblackpanda]

Yeah, walking through areas is one of the bigger things that gives the players a feeling of control.
Personally, I think the target of VNs should be those who read comic books. Comic books are sort of the closest thing to a VN. Those who read comic books will enjoy pictures with their words and won't expect too much interactivity, but they will probably appreciate it. (I'm including manga in this too).

[Anna]

Yeah, walking through areas is one of the bigger things that gives the players a feeling of control.
Personally, I think the target of VNs should be those who read comic books. Comic books are sort of the closest thing to a VN. Those who read comic books will enjoy pictures with their words and won't expect too much interactivity, but they will probably appreciate it. (I'm including manga in this too).

Yes, I agree. I've gone from manga to visual novels and those people mostly liked it. Though I think you should target readers/people who read books in general, since compared to a manga a visual novel has a lot more story, time for character development and takes longer to read.

I think walking through areas is fine, but if you're creating a visual novel with point-and-click stuff, or more of an adventure game, not every story will work - which is a shame if you want to create something else. Those kind of stories will focus on exploring the environment and finding stuff/solving puzzles. And if you end up creating these, I don't think it will raise the popularity of regular visual novels anyway.

[JRFive]

true and good point, i guess like Pheonix Wright and 999 (which i need to try myself) are like the mainstream VN now. But I still feel like there's so much more potential there for VN's.

yeah, the problem seems to be the amount of interactivity and getting the audience. It is kinda sad how people seem to have lost patience in reading in general. Still the most important thing is that the VN has a good, enticing story imo.

One thing that i forgot to mention in my first post was movies. By that I mean short video clips in visual novels, oftentimes music videos. A well done intro movie could also be used to advertise, and help make a VN more mainstream I think. The video can show glimpses of a lot (chars, scenes, etc.) and just hype them up in general. And yeah, video clips of cool action parts during the story would be good to have (like in Muv Luv Alternative).

Well one thing is clear i think, it would be a slow process to get VNs mainstream unfortunately.. May just have to build up to the point where there doesn't have to be as much interactivity or other attempts just to break up the reading. May just have to start small, with one project at a time. But kinda like I said before, just because it isn't mainstream doesn't mean its bad or won't have a market. I guess I just kinda wish more people would appreciate or see the value in this little-known media, because I do think it has a lot of potential. I would even say its potentially the most absorbing, emotional, and thought-provoking of all media because you can really get into the character's heads and get all the plot details while feeling more a part of it all with the visuals. Like deep entertainment as opposed to the light entertainment of movies, games etc. The only weaknesses are its lack of total game-like interaction and lack of action with movement (animation).

Maybe I got a little carried away there heh, buy hey maybe its important to analyze the strengths and weaknesses of the media like this when considering how to make it mainstream.

[Anna]

The only weaknesses are its lack of total game-like interaction and lack of action with movement (animation).

Animation is hard and very time consuming to do, but Katawa Shoujo is a nice example of tremendous effort on that part and Shira Oka tried to do transition animations at least. Also, there have already been some OELVNs with opening movies, like Date Warp, Kansei etc., not to mention commercial (originally Japanese) VNs like Fate/Stay Night or Ever17. I think that part isn't something to worry about.

As for the game part - VNs aren't games, so I don't really see it as a weakness, but more like an aspect of the medium. Do you know when it becomes a weakness? When people expect VNs to be games instead of interactive books.

[Desu_Cake]

One of the main problems I find is that there are two types of VNs. Some are games, some are books. As in, some are focused on "getting" the love interests or whatever the plot device is, while others are focused on telling a story. This creates an obvious marketing problem. IMO "Game-VNs" (GVN) do need more gameplay aspects, and to market themselves as being games, while "Story-VNs" (SVN) need to stop marketing themselves as games, and aim for readers.
I also feel that a major problem is the term Visual Novel itself, as it has become almost synonymous with Eroge in the public conciousness (That is, those members of the public that have heard of it), and even for people who have never heard of them, a quick google of the term will give them much more information than they wanted.
Note: I am in no way suggesting that we pick a new name and all switch over to it, that would be incredibly stupid and also pointless. What I am suggesting is making up a new name for your own games eg: Plot-Driven-RPG or Interactive Storybook or whatever name you think fits what you have created.

[Taleweaver]

What I am suggesting is making up a new name for your own games eg: Plot-Driven-RPG or Interactive Storybook or whatever name you think fits what you have created.

Or maybe another old name: J-Adventure or J-style adventure. I remember the very early popular titles (To Heart, Sentimental Graffiti) called J-Adventures.

[Fawn]

Yeah, a lot of the time people don't know what a visual novel is- even the most hardcore anime fans may not know them; when I've mentioned them before people usually ask "Oh, you mean comic books?" I'm planning on advertising my games as "choose-your-own romance games" to people not in the VN scene so it makes more sense. That's basically what most my games are, anyways...

[redeyesblackpanda]

Yeah... I'm hesitant to tell friends that I'm working on a "visual novel" because the google results seem to suggest that visual novels = XXX (and I'm not writing eroge, so that's not what I want them to think )
I usually say that I'm working on "a story" and if they ask more details, I tell them, "It's a digital choose-your-own-adventure story with pictures."
Come to think of it, I could describe it as a "writing heavy RPG."

[AxemRed]

What I am suggesting is making up a new name for your own games eg: Plot-Driven-RPG or Interactive Storybook or whatever name you think fits what you have created.

Or maybe another old name: J-Adventure or J-style adventure. I remember the very early popular titles (To Heart, Sentimental Graffiti) called J-Adventures.

I think "adventure game" would do fine.

[Anna]

Well, you can just call the ones with gameplay in it 'games' - be that adventure game or something else, depending on what kind of gameplay it contains :p. If you're making a 'vn with rpg elements' it becomes a RPG.

'Visual novel' can just be used for those which are basically books on your PC, with the possibility of choices.

[Sapphi]

One of the main problems I find is that there are two types of VNs. Some are games, some are books. As in, some are focused on "getting" the love interests or whatever the plot device is, while others are focused on telling a story. This creates an obvious marketing problem. IMO "Game-VNs" (GVN) do need more gameplay aspects, and to market themselves as being games, while "Story-VNs" (SVN) need to stop marketing themselves as games, and aim for readers.
I also feel that a major problem is the term Visual Novel itself, as it has become almost synonymous with Eroge in the public conciousness (That is, those members of the public that have heard of it), and even for people who have never heard of them, a quick google of the term will give them much more information than they wanted.
Note: I am in no way suggesting that we pick a new name and all switch over to it, that would be incredibly stupid and also pointless. What I am suggesting is making up a new name for your own games eg: Plot-Driven-RPG or Interactive Storybook or whatever name you think fits what you have created.

You are right. I think if people stopped attempting to pass SVNs off as games, the quality of writing might get better because the writers wouldn't constantly have to worry "Is this enough gameplay? Should I shove a mini-game somewhere? More routes?" etc.

I'm starting to feel the need to come up with a better term than "Kinetic Novel". Hardly anybody I know has ever heard of that, and the name is kind of misleading in the first place. It sounds like a book rolling down the side of a mountain.

Right now I'm attempting to explain to my IRL acquaintances that no, I'm not going to "get it published"; I'm self-publishing. No, it's not a book, it's a program on a computer, where you hit enter to advance the words, and pictures change as the story changes. How to sum all that up in a few words is still a mystery to me.

[DaFool]

The problem with those of us with commercial aspirations is that no portal has the category 'Visual Novel'... so your game has to either fit under 'Adventure' with the other point n click stuff else RPG or Simulator.

Of course I would love nothing more than to have a real online library with nothing but kinetic novels, but that's not gonna happen.

Besides, most modern games today are nothing more than cinematics with quicktime button-presses (I'm looking at you Asura's Wrath and Final Fantasy XIII-2, I literally laughed at the "interactive" cutscenes). You can do something really similar and much cheaply as motion comics with timed menu choices.

So you don't have to 'force' minigames on something, but in general more animations and more choices (beyond selecting something from a plain menu) can automatically bump your visual novel into another more marketable category.