NaNoReNo 2012

[Hijiri]

I'm probably going to be struck by thunder for saying these things, aren't I? Hah, as if they'll even get close to this section of the board...

You don't get zapped for speaking an unfortunate truth, but its something that we have to deal with, sadly

[Auro-Cyanide]

Give it some time People will start with the ones they were most excited for first before trying out others. Quite a lot of games came out at once after all. I've only played one so far but I fully intend to try out more... right after I play my own so I have an idea of what people are talking about ;_;

Your VN is still sitting on top of my to-read list ;o;! I just don't have the time yet. Same goes for others' games, I want to play them alllll~! <3

Too late, I'm already disillusioned.

This notion of "Oh, I'm gonna play them all!" is only coming from the creators side, but you know what? The bigger groups are always going to bury the newbies and groups who haven't established a solid name yet under the comments of "mm love this cuz it's so great i rlly lieked boy A." Bad spelling and grammar intentional. I'm sure as hell glad I don't get those comments on my own NaNo since they wouldn't be valid in the first place, but was making a game that wasn't a dating sim really a good idea in the end? I wish I could say so but even the one that's an otome parody is getting close to nil in terms of comments. I'm not linking it to see if you can even find it to begin with under all the other titles, though it should stick out like a sore thumb to a certain crowd...

@Auro-Cyanide and Camille if you even see this:

If RisAmo is anything like what Hijiri told me it was, thank you. Thank you. Despite being the occasional fan of otomes, I want to slap this crowd around some and screw with them a little. I really can't believe that some of my fellow human beings are that picky to only play games where 2D boys can be chased around. There are more interesting things in life than fictional boys.

I'm probably going to be struck by thunder for saying these things, aren't I? Hah, as if they'll even get close to this section of the board...

Always, ALWAYS, make a game because you want to. Never pin your expectations on anyone else. Enjoy the process, enjoy the people you work with, enjoy the final product. Everything after that is bonus. Having expectations of people (especially if you haven't calculated the demographic like an advertising agency) is only going to lead to hurt and bitter feelings. You can't force people to like something, but you can certainly like it yourself. Everything else is out of your control and feeling angry about it will get you nowhere. There will always be someone better, someone more popular, someone who just has that much more. Worrying about it is pointless. It's all really a state of mind. You can choose to regret doing what you did and feel like blaming others for enjoying what they do, or you can take enjoyment and love for what you do. It's a choice, and only you can make it.

Everyone worked hard on their projects and I am very proud of them. And no-one gets to where they are without working for it. I see no-one who doesn't deserve what they have.

For the record, Camille and I love otome games. But a better way to describe it is we like good games, and dislike bad ones. We like interesting stories, deep characterisation, strong protagonists, story lines that can sing to your heart and all the assets that can make them come alive. Yes, we used cliches to get a point across... the exact same way Sake used BxG cliches to get her point across last year. There isn't anything specific about the otome crowd that you can't find in every single other fandom and like I said, blaming people for liking what they do will get you nowhere. Like Papillon, I'm not fond of the anti-otome sentiments that float around. People should judge a game by it's merits, not it's genre. I'm not jumping down your throat specifically, but I do feel the need to state my stance clearly.

[CheeryMoya]

Like Papillon, I'm not fond of the anti-otome sentiments that float around. People should judge a game by it's merits, not it's genre.

Yes, people should, but they don't. And by no means am I anti-otome; I'm just anti-brainless.

[Hijiri]

Like Papillon, I'm not fond of the anti-otome sentiments that float around. People should judge a game by it's merits, not it's genre.

I believe the sentiments have less to do about gender and more about the execution of said games. A lot of these otome games being made focus more on you getting the boy than an actual plot, story, or character development. That is what a lot of people have anti-otome sentiments: because many of them are essencially Twilight, but without the vampires. You can argue against this view, but think about it; do you honestly think many of those games are anything more than "Get the boy"?

[papillon]

'those games' 'these games'

The problem is, some of us don't even know what "those games" are. Particularly people who don't tend to read WIP threads.

I didn't read them back when almost all of the WIPs were BxG either, because it was the exact same thing. Most of them sounded generic and 90% of them would never be finished. So why bother getting interested?

If you don't even LOOK at games that aren't completed and aren't of a certain minimum length, you get an entirely different picture of the current state of development on this forum.

do you honestly think many of those games are anything more than "Get the boy"?

Many of the games that I bother to notice the existence of, yes. I'm sure there are mindless squealing romance games out there, but as I would have no interest in them, if I've actually encountered one I would quickly drop it and move on without bothering to store it in memory.

[Anna]

I understand that it stings to see a generic otome game getting a lot of attention/fangirl squealing instead of the story you worked hard to put together, but what are you going to achieve with this? And have a little faith, people will find you, even below that pile of other VNs - and who says everyone who liked it and played leaves a comment?

Anyway, I'm playing your game right now Moya, I'll leave my comments when I'm done and bump your topic up a bit. Maybe creators can help each other that way, right? So please be a little more Cheery ;)

PS: I don't think all otome VNs should be clumped together. For this NaNoRenO some interesting ones have been made which go beyond 'Twilight without vampires' :/... and generalisation done like this is never a good thing and it bothers me to see.

PS2: even those people worked hard to finish their projects, complaining about what someone achieved is not nice.

[Hijiri]

"Most" means "Majority" not "All" So it isn't generalization but an observation. That means that there are otome games that do go beyond the generic and make a compelling story

[Anna]

I'd like to see how you came to that conclusion though? Are the majority of FINISHED otome VNs really brainless get-the-boy? Maybe I haven't paid enough attention, but I didn't notice? How do you even judge that in a good way?

And do you mean in general or for this specific event? Because if you're talking in general, I don't see why this topic is brought up here...

Also, please explain why this is a useful discussion ^^;. We can't stop people from fangirling, nor can we stop them from making these kind of VNs. All the results I can imagine/see are people getting hurt. what do you want to achieve?

[Mink]

Luckily for me, I'm pessimistic about everything.

Otherwise, I'm relatively indifferent about this. I wrote a story I wanted to write, so it is what it is.

[PyTom]

First of all, can I ask people to stop using spoiler text in this thread, at least for things that aren't spoilers. If you need to hide what you're going to say, it's probably best not to say it at all.


It's also really important to expand your horizons beyond this forum. You need to take steps to try and get your game out in front of the audience that wants to see it. I'll put it this way - regardless of how popular your game is, it will eventually drop off the front page of the completed games list. If that's how you're relying on people finding it, then you'll have a problem.

But if you take the time to finish the release process - for example, make a website for your game. Send links to bloggers and reviewers. Post on social media. - then now your're not as reliant on forum rank to get people to see your projects. As an example, just because I'm crazy analytical about this sort of thing - Moonlight Walks came out over 7 years ago. It got at least 292 downloads last week. None of those downloads were from LSF.

I think the thing is - realize that LSF is a small world, and a bit of an echo chamber. If you want to build an audience, you need to leave these walls and go out into the rest of the world. (And if you do that, realize you'll likely bring back people who are interested in the games you're interested in making.)


I do wonder if, for next year, it might makes sense to hold a release festival, rather than releasing all the games at once when they're ready.


Finally, just a housekeeping note. I'm going to leave the WiP: NaNo forum linked from the front page until the 14th, and then I'm going to be making it a subforum of works-in-progress until March 2013.

[Camille]

First of all, can I ask people to stop using spoiler text in this thread, at least for things that aren't spoilers. If you need to hide what you're going to say, it's probably best not to say it at all.

Can't speak for spoiler tags on other pages of this thread, but the ones on this page were probably put there because they spoiled what happens (aka the plot twist) in the second half of our game. ^^; I don't think that anyone who really cares about that would be looking here, but it's better safe than sorry, I suppose.

But if you take the time to finish the release process - for example, make a website for your game. Send links to bloggers and reviewers. Post on social media.

This is very true. RisAmo got way more hits and downloads from our website and from Twitter than we did from LSF. And then once the Tumblr people got ahold of it, well... Yeah. It's much easier for people to link to a website than to a LSF thread URL... Not to mention that having a website makes your game just look more professional. I think this is very true. The only time RisAmo's LSF thread was linked to was when it was part of a list of other completed NaNo games, all also linked with their LSF thread URL.

I do wonder if, for next year, it might makes sense to hold a release festival, rather than releasing all the games at once when they're ready.

While I think that would be nice, I think that the same things that people have problems with/complaints about would still happen even in that format. ^^;

On the other parts of this discussion... I am kind of uncomfortable with the idea of RisAmo being seen as some sort of anti-otome game... Same as I am with it being seen as an otome game. It's really not supposed to be either of those things. Like Auro said, it's not otome games we have a problem with (in fact, both of us really like them and if it wasn't for otoges, neither of us would even be here)... I was, personally, just trying to go on a crusade against bad characterization. XD; It had nothing to do with being against romance (the second half of the game still has romance) or anything like that. I didn't even mean for the game to be "hahaha otome game fans, let us troll you!!"... I just wanted players to think a bit, to reexamine why they feel a certain way about things. Or heck, even if they didn't think, as long as they played the game at all, I'm pretty happy. I wrote the story I wanted to write and had a partner who believed in and supported my vision, so like Auro said--everything else is just icing on the cake for me.

I don't think the blanket statement of "all otome games are bad/silly/like Twilight" is correct. I think, in general, most fiction sucks. It just does! It has nothing to do with the gender of the protagonist or the gender of the love interests. Point to a genre--ANY GENRE--and I can show you that at least 60% of it is underdeveloped, cliche, and just plain immature. It bothers me that whenever girls do something--like otome games--people are like "Oh my gosh, it's so immature and girly and cliche!!" but when guys make cliche BxG or GxG games, they get a free pass. Girls are harsher critics of other girls and I think that's just unfair. Even the "really cliche otome games" (I really don't think any have even been completed recently here) were finished only after a lot of hard work and thought on the part of the creator(s) and who are we to deny them a fanbase if people respond to that work? Just because you find the story shallow or impossible to relate to doesn't mean that everyone else will. In fact, for a personal experience, there is one character in RisAmo where I've found that opinions are evenly divided. I've had people tell us "This character's route was underdeveloped and shallow and I couldn't stand her" and other people tell us "This character's route really spoke to me and I know exactly how she felt because I often feel the same way--I loved watching her development". So there! D:

Anyway, I'll get off my soapbox now, since almost none of this has anything to do with NaNoRenO and we seem to keep going around in circles on this topic time and time again. x_x But yeah, needed to get that out there.

[SusanTheCat]

My goal for April is to play one game a night.

I'll eventually get all of them.

PLUS, I still have to finish mine. My son is composing music for me to add to it.

Susan

[Nuxill]

Funny story:

You may or may not remember that I registered just over a month ago with the intention of doing a NaNoRenO entry, and was very excited about the project (original post). I was ready. I had a story that I liked, I had characters that I liked, I had planned out roughly half of my scenes, I had art pre-made, I had reference, I had worked my homework ahead to have more time. By March 1st, I was ready.

A mere 4 Days and 700 words later, I found out I didn't enjoy writing. Called it quits and never looked back. Had a great time doing 3D modeling instead.

So I have respect for all those of you who did finish, and I'll gladly look into those projects once I get over the trauma of having an old dream smashed in 700 words.

Glad you didn't waste time on something you didn't want to do! It's a shame though, because I really love the art direction and idea you had going. Oh well, there's always next time/game/whatever.

I haven't played any nanoreno games yet but I've downloaded a couple that I've been excited for and I'll probably check them out tomorrow on my free day. Congrats on everyone who finished on time, and those who are close to finishing!

[CheeryMoya]

I wasn't trying to stir up debate, but my problem is that creators who are trying to start out or grab some attention to their group are being overlooked in favor of games with "prettier art" or an already established VN circle. "Make the game for the hell of it?" That's all well and idealistic, but there are a few users that do want people to actually read their ideas, and it's hard for that to happen when it's constantly missed as the topic fades into obscurity. As for my project, I never really cared if it wasn't a real "hit" with the usual forum-goers/lurkers; it was intended to be a sort of catharsis for my own sake (though in the end, it changed into some yandere chimera :/).

There's the off chance that once the NaNo craze dies out, those poor ignored gems will finally get their time to shine, but how long will that last? Probably not too long before a big game by the big groups devours them up again.

And by this time, it should be common sense not to contain your games to just LSF; if you want to even try standing a chance, a website is a must need. But really, it's a little hard to make more than just a blog if you don't have the means to pay for a space that can be customized. With a simple little blog, you'll still have to rely on some other site to host your games.

I am kind of uncomfortable with the idea of RisAmo being seen as some sort of anti-otome game... I was, personally, just trying to go on a crusade against bad characterization. XD;

As am I. Aren't we all?

[Anarchy]

I don't think the blanket statement of "all otome games are bad/silly/like Twilight" is correct. I think, in general, most fiction sucks. It just does! It has nothing to do with the gender of the protagonist or the gender of the love interests. Point to a genre--ANY GENRE--and I can show you that at least 60% of it is underdeveloped, cliche, and just plain immature. It bothers me that whenever girls do something--like otome games--people are like "Oh my gosh, it's so immature and girly and cliche!!" but when guys make cliche BxG or GxG games, they get a free pass.

Hear, hear! I never see people saying things like "Eww, GxG, gross" but when it comes to BL (which tends to be something that girls like more), you'll find plenty of people to bash on yaoi and pretty boys and yaoi fangirls and such. I feel like it's not just because girls are more critical of other girls, but it's more because society in general tends to be more accepting of "masculine" interests and perspectives compared to "feminine" perspectives.

Regarding the anti-otome hate:

First of all, I can totally understand preferring works targeted towards a certain demographic, or written in a particular genre/genres, but I think it's silly to stereotype an entire demographic or genre, especially when you've obviously not experienced a lot of works in that particular genre. It's like people who've just watched a bit of Naruto or Bleach or Dragonball and they just hate on anime/manga and think that it's all about characters with huge eyes and spiky hair and that it's all for kids - which, while that is true of some anime/manga, is definitely not an accurate representation of the medium as a whole.

If you hate bland, immature, cliched games, why don't you hate on bland, immature, cliched games in general, instead of bland, immature, cliched games from a certain genre? Doesn't make sense to me.

Secondly, I don't understand how somebody can hate otome games for being bland and cliche, and not hate bishoujo games and dating games in general, BxB, GxG, whatever. It's like... is it's a romance, and the protagonist is female, the story will tend to be horrible, bland, and cliche, but as soon as the protagonist is male, that romance story automatically gets a much better chance of being good? If you hated dating-sim-esque VNs in general, I could understand it a bit better, but hating on GxB games specifically while giving BxG, GxG, and BxB games a free pass, even though the basic structure is exactly the same? Incomprehensible.