NaNoReNo 2012

[clua]

I can suggest as Py Tom says, to not limit yourself to this forum...There are tons of places where you can share your game also!
There are public for everything ! I say this because I made a lot of time fanzines and I ve never had a bunch of public like other locals here
But I didnt care as long as somebody bought it and enjoy it...Those people were my public

Do not let this discourage you...

[Anarchy]

While we're on the topic, could we maybe talk about ways to market your VN outside of LSF, whether as a commercial or a non-commercial venture? (Or has there already been a topic on this that I've missed... ;___;)

I know that I've seen Ripples and Winter in Fairbrook pop up everywhere while I've been searching for visual novels, but I can't remember the specific sites... maybe a list of useful websites might be helpful to people who want to get more exposure for their games?

And on a slight tangent, is it worth trying to market your game to websites that typically deal in more "mainstream" games? I know Rock, Paper, Shotgun has done quite a few articles on Christine Love's work in particular...

[Auro-Cyanide]

I wasn't trying to stir up debate, but my problem is that creators who are trying to start out or grab some attention to their group are being overlooked in favor of games with "prettier art" or an already established VN circle. "Make the game for the hell of it?" That's all well and idealistic, but there are a few users that do want people to actually read their ideas, and it's hard for that to happen when it's constantly missed as the topic fades into obscurity. As for my project, I never really cared if it wasn't a real "hit" with the usual forum-goers/lurkers; it was intended to be a sort of catharsis for my own sake (though in the end, it changed into some yandere chimera :/).

There's the off chance that once the NaNo craze dies out, those poor ignored gems will finally get their time to shine, but how long will that last? Probably not too long before a big game by the big groups devours them up again.

And by this time, it should be common sense not to contain your games to just LSF; if you want to even try standing a chance, a website is a must need. But really, it's a little hard to make more than just a blog if you don't have the means to pay for a space that can be customized. With a simple little blog, you'll still have to rely on some other site to host your games.

Ah, but you are ignoring the fact effort went into those things before hand. Recognition tends to be cumulative. That 'pretty art'? Not only did it take hours to create, but that person would have been practicing for years upon years, paid for computer programs, bought tablets and computers and scanners, paid for art courses. That pretty art didn't pop out of no-where. Same with being known. To be known you have to go around talking to people, socialising, getting things done, producing work, and be constant with it. That takes time and effort as well. The people who pay for web space also went that extra mile to get what they wanted done. That effort starts paying off at some point and unless you are doing the same thing, you can't bregrudge them. It is something that will take time to build up and as you get a forward momentum is should become easier.

I do wonder if, for next year, it might makes sense to hold a release festival, rather than releasing all the games at once when they're ready.

It could be interesting, but I'm not exactly sure how we would go about it? It would probably be better for an external force to do it (I am interested to see what VNsNow does for it since he hasn't got personal connections to LSF and can do what he wants...)

While we're on the topic, could we maybe talk about ways to market your VN outside of LSF, whether as a commercial or a non-commercial venture? (Or has there already been a topic on this that I've missed... ;___;)

There is a thread somewhere, I'll try and find it. The best thing to do is like what others have mentioned. Get your work on as many sites and different arenas as possible. Twitter, DA, Tumblr, our personal website, here, Youtube. We have stuff on all of them and we will try and expand into other spaces where we can. The internet is massive and full of a lot of stuff, so you have to weave a web through multiple points to catch as many people as possible. Personal connections also help since the best way it works is when people link something, and then someone else links it, and then someone else. Your personal circle can expand if you make use of everyone elses circles. It of course takes time and effort to build up connections and space, but it does work

[CheeryMoya]

Ah, but you are ignoring the fact effort went into those things before hand. Recognition tends to be cumulative... That effort starts paying off at some point and unless you are doing the same thing, you can't bregrudge them. It is something that will take time to build up and as you get a forward momentum is should become easier.

I know that everyone puts in the time and effort to make what they do, and I appreciate it. I admire all forms of art, I admire good writing, I admire the dedication people have, I admire the blood, sweat, and tears that were shed, but what I don't admire is the tendency of some users to bury threads that have the same or equal effort with a comment that more or less contains no meaning whatsoever other than "I liked it!"

And hey, before this gets too heated, I don't blame any of you for what "forward momentum" you may already have. My concern is that other users who want some "forward momentum" are unable to get any because they're neglected and practically never seen. Somehow we need to find a way to let everyone's games not push each other down.

How long have I been yearning for a change in the types of posts being made in the WIP and Completed Games sections? Too long is what I think sometimes. I've done my part, and I really don't want to always give up a fight that's worth the trouble.

[Auro-Cyanide]

Ah, but you are ignoring the fact effort went into those things before hand. Recognition tends to be cumulative... That effort starts paying off at some point and unless you are doing the same thing, you can't bregrudge them. It is something that will take time to build up and as you get a forward momentum is should become easier.

I know that everyone puts in the time and effort to make what they do, and I appreciate it. I admire all forms of art, I admire good writing, I admire the dedication people have, I admire the blood, sweat, and tears that were shed, but what I don't admire is the tendency of some users to bury threads that have the same or equal effort with a comment that more or less contains no meaning whatsoever other than "I liked it!"

And hey, before this gets too heated, I don't blame any of you for what "forward momentum" you may already have. My concern is that other users who want some "forward momentum" are unable to get any because they're neglected and practically never seen. Somehow we need to find a way to let everyone's games not push each other down.

How long have I been yearning for a change in the types of posts being made in the WIP and Completed Games sections? Too long is what I think sometimes. I've done my part, and I really don't want to always give up a fight that's worth the trouble.

That's the nature of a forum. What you going to do when people release new games? You can't be on the front page forever. That's why you need other means to show your game outside of this forum. It's why places like VNDB exist.

Most of the comments I have seen have been very good. They have explained what they like/dislike or have given more indepth commentry. I have only seen a handful that are less than that and still it's just someone complimenting the person who created the game, which isn't a bad thing. Like I said before, you can either feel bad about what you did, or you can enjoy the success of finishing and move on. You can not control what other people do. Nothing works that way, anywhere.

[Carassaurat]

I can kind of see where that article is coming from, though I guess it depends on how much is spoiled. Sometimes know just the ending makes me want to play something more, but usually that's if I go out and find out what it is, rather someone going, "X IS REALLY Y!!" or something.

Well, this probably isn't the thread to go into an in-depth discussion, but I think "X IS REALLY Y!!" is a plague of storytelling that's only popular in the last few decades. Surprise is overrated. Alfred Hitchcock used the example of a bomb under the table to illustrate how giving the audience information only makes it more exciting: two people are having a conversation at a table, and all of a sudden a bomb explodes. This is a surprise. Two people are having a conversation at a table and we, the audience, know that there's a bomb under the table that will explode any minute. This is suspense.
Here's a blog post that explains it better than I could.
Incidentally, I just watched Death of a Salesman (the 1985 movie) yesterday, and it does the same spoil-in-title thing that I wanted to do. And it's good.

Glad you didn't waste time on something you didn't want to do! It's a shame though, because I really love the art direction and idea you had going. Oh well, there's always next time/game/whatever.

Thank you for the compliment, that's nice to hear . I did waste a lot of time, though, making art for it on and off since January. But it's been a valuable learning experience and I enjoyed reading these forums for "research". I'm having a little trouble coming up with a "next time" when I don't enjoy writing, though...

[CheeryMoya]

You can't be on the front page forever.

Perhaps I watch the forum trends too much, but this is far from what's really happening. I don't even need to point at which games are culprit; they should be in plain sight, "on the front page," months after their initial release.

Hehe, I think I'll slide back into the shadows... Shouldn't be too hard now, hm?

[GeneDNC]

I have seen this type of thing (popularity factor) everywhere, especially on boards and places that focus on creating/showcasing "creative" content, if you know what I mean. So I've just tried to get used to it since I don't think there's any way to beat it or change it. It's just human nature to gravitate towards popular things.

I do, however, think it's a little unrealistic to say that someone shouldn't be disappointed when others don't receive their work as well as they would have liked. Yes a game should be created for the sake of creating a game, but what's the point if you can't share it with anyone? Sure you could theoretically create the best piece of art or best game and never share it with anyone, but most people intrinsically want to share the things they make, because they worked hard and want their work to make some small impact in another's life and, yes, they want recognition of what they've accomplished. And I'm talking about when making something you are proud of and happy with, not when specifically tailoring something to what you think people want.

In the case where a person puts out work after work that gets unnoticed, it's a fact of life that they can get discouraged to the point that they lose all motivation to carry on in that direction. I am sad to say that that's happened to me personally in another area. A lot of people may say I shouldn't have given up, or think I'm a quitter, but unfortunately that's just what happens.

I also think a key factor here is support. Motivation and determination is one thing, but if you have people, even if it's just a few. supporting and encouraging you constantly, it makes a huge difference. I mean, if you think about all the stories of people who got rejected countless times by publishers before having their book published, most of them tell of the people around them who supported them and helped them keep going. Our little world of VNs can be even tougher, in the sense that it's a really niche avenue of entertainment. Speaking personally, almost none of my in-real-life friends are really into this kind of thing, although they are supportive in a vague sort of way, a community such as this one is can possibly provide a much greater realm of support because we are more closely connected to the medium. We know the effort, the highs and lows, that goes into making a vn.

On the flip side of the coin, I also try to be realistic. My NaNoRenO game is my first (Haha, just had a though, I'm not a VN virgin anymore! ) and all through the month I saw that a lot of other people were making games that at least looked like they were going to be about a million times better than mine. So I expect those to get all the attention when March is over, because that's natural. If none of those games got any comments and mine got everything, I'd suspect that either everyone is on drugs, or someone replaced my mediafire file with something else. In fact right after the release I only got replies from the guys who provided some help with the game (if you guys are reading this, you are legends) and I had to get to grips that, hey, maybe they will the only people who will comment. So when I saw I got a few more comments, frankly I was jumping-up-and-down-over-the-moon ecstatic. Is that a bit sad? Probably. But the point is, I knew going in that my project is first and foremost an exercise in programming and while I'm bloody proud of it in every other regard too, I can't expect it to be the next big thing. Unfortunately it's not always that easy to regulate our feelings over something we're proud of and sometimes it's not good to anyway. I guess all we can do is decide what we will be satisfied with, a finished project, 5 or 20 or 100 comments and if it is worth our time to move forward and try again. And if the answer is "no", hopefully we can move on to something that will be able to provide both enjoyment and acceptance where we seek it.

None of this is really directed towards the “to otome or not to otome” part of the discussion because I really haven’t played enough games to form opinions about genres. So that’s just my 2 longwinded cents about an issue that I think has no easy solution, if any solution at all.

Last thing; before reading or being aware of this discussion at all, I was actually thinking of playing through all the NaNo games alphabetically to minimize my own prejudice. I haven't gotten to playing or downloading any of them yet though, due to time and download capacity limits unfortunately.

[Auro-Cyanide]

@GeneDNC, Oh, of course no-one is suggesting you shouldn't be hurt. It's going to hurt. I've spent hours and hours on art pieces that I have put up to DA that have never gotten any comments, so I have kind of gotten used to it. It never really stops hurting, but you do logically come to grips with it. It's the same with critique. No-one has ever said that doesn't sting, but at some point you have to stop being personally offended by it and start taking it objectively. It would be the same if you got rejected by someone you like. That's going to hurt like hell, but you can't force that person to feel differently about you. It's the same here. You have to accept your own emotions and accept you can't force other people to do what you want. That's why it's only your choices that matter in the end about how you deal with it.

I agree support is very, very important. I will also say that the strength of a project isn't the only reason I would get behind something. While I look out for projects that have strong concepts that have dedicated people working on them, there is one other factor that effects if I will be drawn to support someone.

If I like you/know you. I'm not talking about on a friend level necessarily, but if I see someone who has made an effort to reach out to the community, who is friendly and tries hard, who values their project, who likes to think about things and offer their opinion, well, I'm more likely to support them. It's a simple thing. It's especially strong if I've interacted with that person and it was a positive experience. I'm more inclined to feel friendly towards them and support them. It's the same as if this was in real life. I choose to interact with people I know and like over those who I dislike or don't know. I feel more emotionally connected with them. It's not about just staring at a screen with words and pictures, it's about knowing the people behind them That's why I think it's always a good idea to get involved and get your hands dirty. Share information, talk to other people, offer opinions, all that good stuff. We're all people here after all.

[Mink]

Welp, it's now Spring Break for me, so now I have time to play more of them (the games, that is). Finallyyy.

[Ziassan]

Such a nice guy we have here : http://weeaboo.nl/blog/2012/nanoreno/
To be taken with total seriousness, I count on you.

[9:19]

Such a nice guy we have here : http://weeaboo.nl/blog/2012/nanoreno/

Oh god. XD

On a more relevant note, I have to be honest and say I will still play otome games first, given the choice. However, once I work my way through those, I'm willing to branch out and support other NaNoReNo 2012 titles. (Anyone else here ever finish a game then go to provide feedback only to stare blankly at the monitor for ages trying to figure out how to say the things you want to say? It doesn't have to be negative or even constructive. Sometimes I have trouble penning down praise. I can't seem to pull out words from my obscure fog of 'Yes. Good'. It's as though I've lost the ability to can or something.)

[Mink]

Such a nice guy we have here : http://weeaboo.nl/blog/2012/nanoreno/
To be taken with total seriousness, I count on you.

Lulz, I just read that link. Though I admit that...s/he's right about the art/music in mine. /shrug Also, I've read waaay harsher things than that, so maybe that's why I'm kind of like, "Eh."

Also, did I say I had time during my spring break? Apparently what I meant was that my sister was getting married that week and I had practically zero time. 8|

[SusanTheCat]

I agree about what xhe said about my game. I didn't realize how much of a text dump the tutorial was.

Susan

[Androol]

I don't think you can know the popularity of your work by counting the coment.
A lot of people are user who will d/l, use, enjoy and never even think about the autor. My first 3d model shared freely (it was a long time ago in a poser cumunity) ,who is still available where i relased it at the time, as a ratio of somthing like 1 coment for 300 d/l and taking in count that some forum friend have left comment at the time i relased it, if i dont count thes ones, its more like 1 coment for 500 d/l. As i had an image of the model above the d/l link, i asume at least half the downloader enjoyed my work and dont leached it by mistake.

I dont mean it is a statisticaly relevent exemple by itself, but its not the only one i maked and for what i have seen, the number of comment on social network, forum of maker,etc... are more likely to represent your popularity as a good pal in a comunity than the quality of your work.

Of course if you are a movie star, its certainly a little different.