The Order Of Choices

A place to discuss things that aren't specific to any one creator or game.
Forum rules
Ren'Py specific questions should be posted in the Ren'Py Questions and Annoucements forum, not here.
Message
Author
User avatar
SusanTheCat
Miko-Class Veteran
Posts: 952
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:30 am
Location: New Brunswick, Canada
Contact:

The Order Of Choices

#1 Post by SusanTheCat » Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:43 pm

I am writing a game that has the player able to make choices that are on a spectrum.

Obvious Example:
You see someone steal a fruit:
1 - Try to stop the thief yourself (Only available if you are "Good")
2 - Yell "Stop Thief!
3 - Hey, it's not your problem
4 - Distract the fruit vendor
5 - Tip over the fruit stand (Only available if you are "Evil")

The choice you make will change your alignment and determine the available choices later on.

While writing, it is much easier for me toe write them in "order" from one extreme to the other. For the game, I can randomize them or keep them in order.

As a player, would you want them to show up in order, or be randomized?

Susan
Last edited by SusanTheCat on Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
" It's not at all important to get it right the first time. It's vitally important to get it right the last time. "
— Andrew Hunt and David Thomas

User avatar
redeyesblackpanda
Eileen-Class Veteran
Posts: 1006
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:26 am
Projects: Eternal Memories, plot bunnies that won't die.
Organization: HellPanda Studios
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: The Order Of Choices

#2 Post by redeyesblackpanda » Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:47 pm

I think putting them in order makes them seem a bit too obvious, so personally, I would prefer random.
(All projects currently on a hiatus of sorts. I blame life.)
Tsundere VN
Not really checking the forums any more due to time constraints, so if you want to contact me, PM. I'll get a notification and log in. :mrgreen:
Also, I've been hit and run posting, which means I don't see many replies. If you want to respond to something I've said, also feel free to PM me.

NOTE: if you've got questions about vnovel or things like that, it's Leon that you should be contacting. Leon's been pretty much handling everything, but due to various reasons, I've had to withdraw entirely.

User avatar
Applegate
Miko-Class Veteran
Posts: 798
Joined: Sat May 01, 2010 12:43 pm
Contact:

Re: The Order Of Choices

#3 Post by Applegate » Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:01 pm

I'd say it's fine not to randomise them if the choices are obviously different shades of morality. In your example, even if you randomised it people would understand what is generally "good" and "evil", assuming black and white morality.

User avatar
kaleidofish
Veteran
Posts: 292
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:25 pm
Completed: Tell Her a Story (Nano12), In This Dream of Ours, The Mishka Effect (Nano14), Saving Zoey (Asylum Jam 2014), Fairly Dangerous (Nano15), Palette Swap (Nano16)
Projects: see my site!
Organization: Kaleidofish Studios, Team ANARKY
Tumblr: kaleidofish
Deviantart: kaleidofish
Location: Silent Hilladelphia
Contact:

Re: The Order Of Choices

#4 Post by kaleidofish » Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:19 pm

I prefer a randomized order, even when the choices are as obvious as the ones you've written. It makes me consider the choices a lot more, so that I'm not picking choices according to a pattern. It's more fun without the safety net of "choice #1 is always the good guy answer." Randomized is even better when the choices aren't obvious, because then I have to be even more careful with my choices.
avatar by 15385bic
Redwood Crossing * THE MISHKA EFFECT [NaNo14] * PALETTE SWAP [NaNo16] * FAIRLY DANGEROUS [NaNo15] * Twitter

Visit kaleidofishstudios.com to learn more about what I'm working on.

Gavrilo
Newbie
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:19 pm
Contact:

Re: The Order Of Choices

#5 Post by Gavrilo » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:24 pm

Being a methodological player, I would prefer to know in advance which choices belong to an alignment or another, so ordered would be ideal. That's because I would try all the possibilities anyway. Maybe the right question is whether or not you are willing to let the player assume control of the situation. By randomizing the choices, the player is put in a moral dilemma and must figure out how to act in order to go to one alignment or other; perhaps something he believes to be selfish is actually beneficial. Of course, there is no use in randomizing choices if they are obvious anyway.

User avatar
saguaro
Miko-Class Veteran
Posts: 555
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:17 am
Completed: Locked-In, Sunrise, The Censor
Projects: ?
Organization: Lucky Special Games
Tumblr: saguarofoo
itch: saguarofoo
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: The Order Of Choices

#6 Post by saguaro » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:31 pm

Randomized definitely. I think it engages the player more. If #1 is always the super-good answer people might start going on autopilot.

User avatar
redeyesblackpanda
Eileen-Class Veteran
Posts: 1006
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:26 am
Projects: Eternal Memories, plot bunnies that won't die.
Organization: HellPanda Studios
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: The Order Of Choices

#7 Post by redeyesblackpanda » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:42 pm

Hm... that's right. If you randomize, the reader will have a reason to read all the possible actions instead of clicking one with little thought.
(All projects currently on a hiatus of sorts. I blame life.)
Tsundere VN
Not really checking the forums any more due to time constraints, so if you want to contact me, PM. I'll get a notification and log in. :mrgreen:
Also, I've been hit and run posting, which means I don't see many replies. If you want to respond to something I've said, also feel free to PM me.

NOTE: if you've got questions about vnovel or things like that, it's Leon that you should be contacting. Leon's been pretty much handling everything, but due to various reasons, I've had to withdraw entirely.

User avatar
LVUER
King of Lolies
Posts: 4535
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:57 pm
Completed: R.S.P
Location: Bandung, West Java, Indonesia
Contact:

Re: The Order Of Choices

#8 Post by LVUER » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:16 pm

If the purpose of this game is to be good people (being good is rewarded and being evil is punishable) then I want the choices to be randomized. But if this is a game where you could be good or evil without any punishment (outside the story), then I want the game to make it clear if my option is good or evil (unless it's something that morally gray without clear/direct/immediate consequences).
"Double the princesses, quadruple the fun!" - Haken Browning (SRW-OG Endless Frontier)

DeviantArt Account
MoeToMecha Blog (under construction)
Lolicondria Blog (under construction) <- NSFW

User avatar
SusanTheCat
Miko-Class Veteran
Posts: 952
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:30 am
Location: New Brunswick, Canada
Contact:

Re: The Order Of Choices

#9 Post by SusanTheCat » Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:42 am

LVUER wrote:If the purpose of this game is to be good people (being good is rewarded and being evil is punishable) then I want the choices to be randomized. But if this is a game where you could be good or evil without any punishment (outside the story), then I want the game to make it clear if my option is good or evil (unless it's something that morally gray without clear/direct/immediate consequences).
In the game I'm making the split is Order vs Chaos. So there are "good" endings for either of the extremes. I did Good vs Evil in the example since I figured it would be a more dramatic portrayal.

Susan
" It's not at all important to get it right the first time. It's vitally important to get it right the last time. "
— Andrew Hunt and David Thomas

User avatar
LVUER
King of Lolies
Posts: 4535
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:57 pm
Completed: R.S.P
Location: Bandung, West Java, Indonesia
Contact:

Re: The Order Of Choices

#10 Post by LVUER » Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:59 am

If that's the case then yeah, I want to choices to be clear whether it's good or evil. It's even better if you could customize the choice screen so there's an arrow that show which point that leans to the way of force... cough... I mean good and which is the evil (with the more center the choice, the more "vague"/neutral are the choices)
"Double the princesses, quadruple the fun!" - Haken Browning (SRW-OG Endless Frontier)

DeviantArt Account
MoeToMecha Blog (under construction)
Lolicondria Blog (under construction) <- NSFW

User avatar
Greeny
Miko-Class Veteran
Posts: 921
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:15 am
Completed: The Loop, The Madness
Projects: In Orbit, TBA
Organization: Gliese Productions
Location: Cantankerous Castle
Contact:

Re: The Order Of Choices

#11 Post by Greeny » Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:28 am

I'm all for randomised. The problem with making it appear in the same order every time is that you might as well just put a single choice in the beginning that goes:
"Which ending would you like?"
- Good ending
- Sort of good ending
- Neutral ending
- Mischievous ending
- Evil ending
In Orbit [WIP] | Gliese is now doing weekly erratic VN reviews! The latest: Halloween Otome!
Gliese Productions | Facebook | Twitter
Image

ThisIsNoName
Veteran
Posts: 310
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:15 pm
Contact:

Re: The Order Of Choices

#12 Post by ThisIsNoName » Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:46 am

I think it depends on how complex the story is. If you simply have an "Order" ending, a "Chaos" ending, and a few in between, I would rather have them randomised. However, if, for example, choosing "Order, Chaos, Order, Chaos" gives you a different ending than "Order, Order, Chaos, Chaos", I would rather know which option is which alignment.

Another way to say it is that if the game is stat based, I would want the choices randomised. If it's path based, I would want them in order.

User avatar
SpoilerDuck
Newbie
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:27 am
Contact:

Re: The Order Of Choices

#13 Post by SpoilerDuck » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:36 pm

For me, personally, it would depend on how 'gamey' your morality system is. Is it like in a WRPG such as Mass Effect where you have a linear morality scale, ranging from 'goody-two-shoes'-to-'drowns puppies for fun', and every action moves you along the scale in either direction, with your position on the scale determining future available options?

Or is it something more complex, like a series of variables and switches, where the player isn't defined soley by a morality number, the future options being reliant on past choices themselves rather than the effect past choices had on their morality number?

The former example is something I'd call game-y. Players will be meta-gaming it, thinking "well I know to see this scene I need to be at least 75% good" and thus will pick options according to that requirement. In this scenario, I think having an ordered list of options so the player always knows how they're going to affect their morality scale is best.

However, if it's a case of not having a singular scale but a long, complicated series of branching points/variables then there isn't really any real room for meta-gaming. It's the answers themselves that are much more important, so the player will want to agonise over their choices more. In this scenario, it is much more preferable to not have the "good" option etc. clearly visible - you should randomise.

User avatar
SusanTheCat
Miko-Class Veteran
Posts: 952
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:30 am
Location: New Brunswick, Canada
Contact:

Re: The Order Of Choices

#14 Post by SusanTheCat » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:20 am

I used to play an RPG tabletop game called "Pendragon" http://www.gspendragon.com/. Your stats were split into pairs of stats: Chaste/Lustful, Prudent/Reckless, Trusting/Suspicious.

My plan is to let the player mold the character themselves. If they acted more "Chastely" the story would become more "chaste". If you make too many Reckless decisions, the prudent options are no longer available. I am trying to reward consistent role playing.

Susan
" It's not at all important to get it right the first time. It's vitally important to get it right the last time. "
— Andrew Hunt and David Thomas

User avatar
SpoilerDuck
Newbie
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:27 am
Contact:

Re: The Order Of Choices

#15 Post by SpoilerDuck » Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:54 pm

If it's genuine roleplaying you want to present to the player, than consistent good-to-bad ordering isn't what you want. In life, we rarely know what the "right" or "good" option is - we agonise over our choices because there are no stats. Sometimes we can be really lustful, but play it chaste so not to scare off the person we're pursuing, for example.

You want that true thinking about decisions? Randomise. Make the player think about the words themselves, not the stats.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users