Western and Eastern Games

[Auro-Cyanide]

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/we ... pgs-part-1

I think this is kind of relevent to us seeing as we fairly often discuss what the different elements are and how, why and if Western VNs should take a different route to Japanese VNs. I think it might also be relevent to us when they go on to discuss narrative importance in games.

Also, they briefly mentioned VNs. It made me laugh. Our image is not good XD (Also, just in case, don't take it too seriously. We all know the image problems VNs can have.)

[DaFool]

Finally, solid proof that I'm on the right path
<--aspiring JRPG developer

Next goal: to create games marginally better than the stuff Idea Factory / Compile Heart publish.

Even Square started off making VNs. Maybe they should return just to get their proper bearings since they have lost their way recently.

The video also in a way confirms that animation can be called "anime" and comics can be called "manga" if they follow the core techniques of the genre, e.g. limited lines, wide usage of negative space, etc. Saying that "but the creator didn't come from Japan, so this can't be manga!" is akin to saying "but this game has third person shooting elements, so it can't be an RPG!" What the video says is that the core element of a JRPG (and it's predecessor, VNs) is fundamentally different from a western RPG.

That means everybody here using Ren'Py the way it was intended is making a (J)VN. Whereas people pushing the engine to create unique forms of interaction are the ones making the truly western genre, usually closer to adventure games or interactive fiction.

[LateWhiteRabbit]

Great stuff. I love Extra Credits.

I think a core difference between Western RPGs and JRPGs, and also between Western and Japanese VNs, is that in Japan, the focus is often on EXPERIENCING a story, while in the West the focus is often on SHAPING a story. You see this often with Western audiences wanting more choices and gameplay in VNs.

Even Square started off making VNs. Maybe they should return just to get their proper bearings since they have lost their way recently.

A little tangent here - I often see people talking about gaming companies as if they are monolithic beings, but the fact is, Square hasn't lost its way because Square isn't a person. No one who made those first Square games is still with the company. The people that made Chrono Trigger, who made Final Fantasy 7 - most of them are no longer with the company. We don't say "Paramount Pictures has lost its way", we talk about how much the current script writers or directors are bad, etc. and wish for more movies from the good writers, directors, and actors of the past. It is the same way with games - it is the talent of the individuals involved that makes the difference, not the company name over the door. END TANGENT

That means everybody here using Ren'Py the way it was intended is making a (J)VN. Whereas people pushing the engine to create unique forms of interaction are the ones making the truly western genre, usually closer to adventure games or interactive fiction.

Good observation. But also probably a reason that the OELVNs that have more interaction are more successful - they are appealing to core mechanics that Western audiences appreciate.

[gekiganwing]

Graphic adventure games used to be a big deal in English speaking fandom. Nearly all of them were written in English, and nearly all of them emphasized gameplay. I don't know how much impact they made among video games fans who spoke different languages.

If you look through the archives of VNs listed on the Visual Novel Database, you will see that as early as 1983, there was a mix of NSFW content and worksafe stories. While there certainly are some stories/games about topics other than fictional relationships, a lot of products can be described as romance games, porn games, or both. It's never been easy to clearly draw genre lines. Especially in English speaking fandom, where there's been so few exemplary examples from any category.

---
Every video game RPG ever owes its existence to two specific games:

1. Akalabeth: World of Doom (1979). This vintage computer game was the prelude to the Ultima series, which influenced huge numbers of games across the world.
2. Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord (1981). Probably more influential in Japan, but the Wizardry series is certainly no slouch in terms of influence.

And both of them owe a huge debt to the '70s incarnations of Dungeons and Dragons... which was born out of the wargame Chainmail.

[Shoko]

I think it's silly to divide visual novels into "western" and "eastern" audience targets. You should make an rpg the way you want it to come out and do the same with a visual novel -- there's no rule that says jrpgs must be storycentric and wrpgs gameplaycentric. Both nations enjoy both things! Trying to cram a developers vision of a game into more and more black and white distinctions does nothing but reduce gaming to a shallow contest about which elements of a game are more important or successful. Just make your game the best you can, and let others worry about what to label it.

[akizakura]

I've been looking forward to their exploration of this topic. I love that they included the fact that some of the companies started with VNs and how that probably informed the way they handle narrative. (J)RPGs and VNs are what have, time and again, brought me back to the dream of making games. The stories continue to fascinate me and I tend to enjoy the characters and their relationships, but people don't seem to understand how I can get into a Tales game or Lost Odyssey and not the Elder Scrolls (although I am enjoying Mass Effect, I go to it for different reasons). In the 90s, games like Final Fantasy seemed so popular, but nowadays some of the gamers I know and my classmates in game design seem really put off of JRPGs in general, but it's a little disheartening when that genre is what's informing your desire to make games. So I'm looking forward to how EC handles the topic and maybe some interesting insight.

It's one of the reasons I even just like reading posts on LSF - because it seems like a lot of people here have a similar influence, but have taken it and blended it with their own background and made it something unique.

A little tangent here - I often see people talking about gaming companies as if they are monolithic beings, but the fact is, Square hasn't lost its way because Square isn't a person. No one who made those first Square games is still with the company. The people that made Chrono Trigger, who made Final Fantasy 7 - most of them are no longer with the company. We don't say "Paramount Pictures has lost its way", we talk about how much the current script writers or directors are bad, etc. and wish for more movies from the good writers, directors, and actors of the past. It is the same way with games - it is the talent of the individuals involved that makes the difference, not the company name over the door. END TANGENT

Never really thought about it this way, but good point!

[kenobihiro]

I've been looking forward to their exploration of this topic. I love that they included the fact that some of the companies started with VNs and how that probably informed the way they handle narrative. (J)RPGs and VNs are what have, time and again, brought me back to the dream of making games. The stories continue to fascinate me and I tend to enjoy the characters and their relationships, but people don't seem to understand how I can get into a Tales game or Lost Odyssey and not the Elder Scrolls (although I am enjoying Mass Effect, I go to it for different reasons). In the 90s, games like Final Fantasy seemed so popular, but nowadays some of the gamers I know and my classmates in game design seem really put off of JRPGs in general, but it's a little disheartening when that genre is what's informing your desire to make games. So I'm looking forward to how EC handles the topic and maybe some interesting insight.

It's one of the reasons I even just like reading posts on LSF - because it seems like a lot of people here have a similar influence, but have taken it and blended it with their own background and made it something unique.

A little tangent here - I often see people talking about gaming companies as if they are monolithic beings, but the fact is, Square hasn't lost its way because Square isn't a person. No one who made those first Square games is still with the company. The people that made Chrono Trigger, who made Final Fantasy 7 - most of them are no longer with the company. We don't say "Paramount Pictures has lost its way", we talk about how much the current script writers or directors are bad, etc. and wish for more movies from the good writers, directors, and actors of the past. It is the same way with games - it is the talent of the individuals involved that makes the difference, not the company name over the door. END TANGENT

Never really thought about it this way, but good point!

May be it's just me but the only reason i get into JRPG is because i want to see romantic moments between main character and man girl (The reason why i absolutely love FF8, FF10 but not FF12 or 13). Call me whatever you want but i also enjoy Rune Factory series for the same reason. And when i want action, i go with WRPG.

[Anna]

Funny, I had this discussion with some friends just a few days ago. I'm not sure what to think about the terminology used (such as 'JRPG') but it's true I play those games for different reasons. JRPGs are more story centric and WRPGs are more about exploring the world/your own grand adventure. In WRPG your adventure is more unique from that of other players when compared to JRPGs. I like both, but they do interpret roleplaying in different ways.

In the end though, I'd still call all of them RPGs. Just like a kinetic novel just defines what kind of VN it is, doesn't mean it's suddenly not a VN anymore. JRPGs and WRPGs are still RPGs - games where you experience the world through somebody else's shoes. Whether that be some predefined character or one you created yourself, in the end you're still roleplaying.

Though I do get the need to divide them because of their differences, so it doesn't really bother me all that much when people do this. I guess I'm just lazy when it comes to this, and it doesn't matter because I like both ahaha >_>;...

edit: But if anything, let's please pleeeaaase not make up things like 'JVN' or 'WVN'. We have OELVN already, and I'm not even sure about the purpose of that. The only thing it tells you is that it was written in English originally - but why is that relevant?

[Auro-Cyanide]

I don't think anyone is saying that these games HAVE to be divided into east and west, simply looking at the reasons why they are. There was a related discussion that they had earlier about how the east and west approached the myth of the gun and PFSs. http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/th ... of-the-gun

I thought it was interesting because we DO use terms like JVN and OELVN, though for a different reason at the moment I think. Why do we define ourselves from other VNs? Is it needed? Will it help or hinder to have a different name in the future?

[Anna]

Oops, then I completely misunderstood. My bad!

Well then, actually, I think we could do without EVN/OELVN, because I don't see enough differences between Eastern and Western VNs and I think it only brings stigma with it. I also think that a name which only tells you in what language it was originally written is just silly.

[papillon]

AFAIK most people who use the term are using it to be disparaging and make a sweeping claim that all games not made by Real Japanese People are crap, or are conversely fighting back against people making that statement.

I have never seen anyone with a released game intentionally trying to promote themselves as a Real English Visual Novel. The term doesn't exist because we're trying to use it.

[Anna]

Well, developers themselves aren't using it (I haven't seen anyone who did that yet), but fans and other people not necessarily against OELVNs do sometimes use it, just because they've seen it here and there.

Here's an example of where it's used that we all know of:

http://planet.renai.us/

edit:

And here: http://wiki.renai.us/wiki/Main_Page

And here: http://www.renai.us/

And in Aearu's topic in general discussion they want to create a 'OELVN' site separate from normal VNs (not that I think it will ever come into existence).

And here: http://theotakusblog.wordpress.com/2011 ... al-novels/

And here (look at the categories): http://studiomugenjohncel.wordpress.com ... vn-review/

So yeah, it's being used and that's spreading, even when it's done without any harm intended.

[bunny-gypsy]

I love Extra Credits! They really provide food for thought.

Even though I already knew this stuff (being exposed to mostly male gamer classmates, studied game design/theory, etc),
it's good to see a nice clear explanation of why some people prefer WRPG's over JRPG's and vice-versa.

I used to like JRPG's, and I couldn't figure out for long time why I lost interest in them.
After playing WRPG's and JRPG's throughout the years, I think my reasons are: 1) I can't get into the turned-based battle-systems, 2) linear storylines I can't shape/control and 3) male protagonists I can't relate to (which is related to the linear storylines I can't shape problem).

[Not that I don't play male protagonists. I do, but only for certain action/adventure games, and the dating/romance thing is at
a minimum. When I play dating/romance stuff, I tend to relate to a female protagonist more because I'm, well, a female myself, lol.]

This video helps clarify why I prefer some WRPG's/Action-RPG's (and Action-Adventures and Adventure Games with mini-game puzzles) over JRPG's nowadays, and why my sister is the opposite.

This could explain why my sister had trouble in her game design classes (which had mostly male students)---she preferred the JRPG's and
Visual Novel stuff, but the class was focused on making First-person-shooters, Action, Action-Adventure, Arcade, and, when they did focus on RPG's, the class focused on WRPG's like Elder Scrolls or Bioware RPG's. Basically, stuff that I liked, but my sister has no interest in, lol!

[DaFool]

Last episode was profound
http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episod ... pgs-part-3

Now that we've established that JRPGs were different from WRPGs, notice on 4:27 they showed two games which were "doing it right" To the Moon and Cthulhu, both of them OELJRPGs.

That's the general direction I want to be heading towards, with or without battlesystems, as long as there is an element of exploration even in an "interactive kinetic novel".

[Kuiper]

Relevant?

http://kineticliterature.com/the-unreal ... al-novels/