The argument against Generic Games

A place to discuss things that aren't specific to any one creator or game.
Forum rules
Ren'Py specific questions should be posted in the Ren'Py Questions and Annoucements forum, not here.
Message
Author
User avatar
Camille
Eileen-Class Veteran
Posts: 1227
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:43 pm
Completed: Please see http://trash.moe
Projects: the head well lost
Organization: L3
Tumblr: narihira
Deviantart: crownwaltz
itch: lore
Contact:

Re: The argument against Generic Games

#46 Post by Camille » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:07 am

CheeryMoya wrote:That's okay, but what about the rest of us? We'll get ignored because we don't have that familiar "anime" look.
Once again, you can't force people to be interested in something. You can only do your best to present your project and hope that it'll resonate with people. What do you want us to say? Life isn't fair.

When applying to college, students with lower grades and less extracurriculars get passed over for those with higher test scores and whatnot, right? Then, every once in a while you have a C-student who is actually a genius and wins some kind of huge award--and they get into Harvard even if their actual GPA sucks. So you can either work harder to be the person with the high test scores AND lots of great extracurriculars, or you can hope that you're a lucky genius. But there's no point in resenting the A students and lucky C-students for getting into college.

User avatar
Auro-Cyanide
ssǝʇunoƆ ʇɹ∀
Posts: 3059
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:02 am
Completed: http://auro-cyanide.tumblr.com/visualnovels
Projects: Athena
Organization: Cyanide Tea
Tumblr: auro-cyanide
Deviantart: Auro-Cyanide
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: The argument against Generic Games

#47 Post by Auro-Cyanide » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:11 am

CheeryMoya wrote:
Auro-Cyanide wrote:Visual Novels is the combination of written words and visual and are meant to balance each other. One is not better than the other since they both have different strengths in communication. It is what the medium is and it would be for the worse to dismiss one or the other.
Anarchy wrote:I don't think anybody's been saying that the art has to be the most important aspect. I think what Camille's been saying that is both the visuals and the writing are essential parts of a visual novel.
Teehee! :lol: Oh man, this is hilarious!! :lol: :lol: Simply hilarious!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: If you tell one more joke, I'll just burst with laughter and won't be able to control myself anymore.

On a more serious note, since when were the two sides ever treated as equal? I mean, aha, Cyanide Tea has art that's nice to look at and at the very least decent writing. That's okay, but what about the rest of us? We'll get ignored because we don't have that familiar "anime" look.

Edit: Never played Umineko, but remember: one success story, plenty of untold failures.
I'm going to be doing a thread on copywriting soon, hopefully, because honestly that is were a lot of writers fall down. A lot of writers are used to having time to introduce their ideas, they are not used to trying to communicate an idea in a couple seconds in order to grab people's attention. How long did you spend writing the opening sentences of your thread? It should be hours. Visuals can communicate faster than words, but I'm not just throwing up any sketch. I spend hours to refine the visuals and any writer should do the same. There have been entire advertising campaigns revolving around just copy and they are BRILLANT. That is what good copy can do. Too often I see a vague, secrective outline of a plot... how is that going to interest people? Also, most of you ignore typography. As a graphic designer, this annoys me.

Also, complaining about art won't make it go away. Find other ways to get what you want. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Look at graphic design in general for examples of ways of communicating with things other than just visuals.

SvenTheViking
Regular
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:19 am
Projects: Chronicles of the Timetraveler's Wars
Organization: ProgMan Productions; Polymorphic Games
Location: Oregon
Contact:

Re: The argument against Generic Dating Games

#48 Post by SvenTheViking » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:12 am

Auro-Cyanide wrote:If you think Camille has ever in one moment not put in every bit of effort she has, you are dead wrong too (and obviously haven't read anything by her).
I never said that. I never ONCE said that she didn't put everything she had into her work, nor that she wasn't a talented writer. And yes, I have read some of her work, if only in a limited scope, as everything of which I know is related to engaging in relationships with guys, and that's just not something that interests me; I'm a fairly straight guy, and going after guys, in reality or in a story or a game, just doesn't appeal to me. What I said was that as long as she portrays herself as a means of framing art, your art, as it is, she's selling herself short. She could very well be the next Caragh O'Brien in a few more years, but as long as she's sticking to the opinion that the pictures are the more important focus, she's always going to play second fiddle.
"Be not afraid of greatness: some men are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them."
William Shakespeare, "Twelfth Night"

CheeryMoya
Miko-Class Veteran
Posts: 892
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:09 am

Re: The argument against Generic Games

#49 Post by CheeryMoya » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:16 am

Camille wrote:Once again, you can't force people to be interested in something. You can only do your best to present your project and hope that it'll resonate with people. What do you want us to say? Life isn't fair.
Hehe, that's actually what my big project is about: the kind of crap that happens in life when things seem to be going good. It just seems so comical to me for some reason...

Well, as I'm clearly inexperienced from this point on, I'll be taking my leave from this thread.

User avatar
Sapphi
Eileen-Class Veteran
Posts: 1685
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:31 am
Completed: Boku no Taisetsu na Yumeko
Projects: Twelve, PAW ★ PRINTS
Organization: Kitsch-soft
Location: Illinois, USA
Contact:

Re: The argument against Generic Games

#50 Post by Sapphi » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:18 am

Camille wrote:You can't expect a 14-year-old girl to suddenly write the visual novel equivalent of a Dostoyevsky book.
QFT, and because I am a rabid Dostoevsky fan. ^_^

I understand that people are upset when their well-written, unique story is overshadowed by something more cliche. But seriously, you guys who are speaking out against it, there comes a point when you have to understand that not everyone is as mature or well-read as you. We all start somewhere. I'll be honest and use myself as a personal example.

When I was in junior high, I began writing an incredibly cliche magical girl story inspired by Tokyo Mew Mew called "Suteneko". You can read it here. I was completely ignorant of how to write a good story, how to draw things correctly, how to make good comics, and I never finished it, as you can imagine, but the fact is that I did it, and some kind people supported me. They commented on my work and showed me that my effort was worth it, because somebody was interested in it. Guess what? I am 21 now and in college, and I have read a lot more books and had a lot more experiences. I am also still writing stories.

You don't have to like the generic games and the squealing fans, but please at least try to understand them. They are not where you are yet. They'll get there soon enough.
"It is [the writer's] privilege to help man endure by lifting his heart,
by reminding him of the courage and honor and hope and pride
and compassion and pity and sacrifice which have been the glory of his past."
— William Faulkner
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬..+X+..▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
Image

User avatar
Auro-Cyanide
ssǝʇunoƆ ʇɹ∀
Posts: 3059
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:02 am
Completed: http://auro-cyanide.tumblr.com/visualnovels
Projects: Athena
Organization: Cyanide Tea
Tumblr: auro-cyanide
Deviantart: Auro-Cyanide
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: The argument against Generic Dating Games

#51 Post by Auro-Cyanide » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:21 am

SvenTheViking wrote:
Auro-Cyanide wrote:If you think Camille has ever in one moment not put in every bit of effort she has, you are dead wrong too (and obviously haven't read anything by her).
I never said that. I never ONCE said that she didn't put everything she had into her work, nor that she wasn't a talented writer. And yes, I have read some of her work, if only in a limited scope, as everything of which I know is related to engaging in relationships with guys, and that's just not something that interests me; I'm a fairly straight guy, and going after guys, in reality or in a story or a game, just doesn't appeal to me. What I said was that as long as she portrays herself as a means of framing art, your art, as it is, she's selling herself short. She could very well be the next Caragh O'Brien in a few more years, but as long as she's sticking to the opinion that the pictures are the more important focus, she's always going to play second fiddle.
You obviously don't know how we work. The reason we do well together is because we respect what each of us do and aim to work with them together to facilitate the story. Neither of us plays second fiddle to the other. Why would you assume it has to be one way or the other and that her working with my art means she sees her writing as an accessory? I adore her writing and I want to do everything I can to help her bring the stories to life. You will never get the respect of an artist if you don't first respect the way they communicate. Also, play RisAmo before you go judging.

J. Datie
Veteran
Posts: 365
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 1:30 am
Contact:

Re: The argument against Generic Games

#52 Post by J. Datie » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:20 am

I have to say, expecting the people who play generic dating games to suddenly start playing fancy art games is like expecting kids who blow their entire allowance on junk food to suddenly start eating fancy rich people food. As painful as it can be sometimes, some people just don't give a flying feather about whether or not their visual novels have literary value or not. And can you blame them? I certainly don't approach everything I do with a critical eye. If it makes you feel any better, good or bad, generic games don't last too long in the public eye, but, even if they never become very popular, good innovative games can become cult classics. It's why Ico gets an HD remake and Madden NFL 2002, released the same year, gets... sold for $3 on eBay.

Also, good art isn't half important as good art direction. Just because you don't have shiny nice art doesn't mean you can put what you do have to good use. The art is just a tool. Come to think of it, it's the same for writing. Both writing and art are just the tools a creator uses to tell a story. In the end, they're as only important as they are useful.

User avatar
Anna
Miko-Class Veteran
Posts: 708
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 10:30 am
Completed: Binary Soul, Days of the Divine, Nanolife, Firefly
Projects: current: Path of Dreamers
Organization: Circle Pegasi
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: The argument against Generic Games

#53 Post by Anna » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:25 am

Oh wow, this exploded big time. I'm not going to dive into the main argument here, but I did read some things here and there about 'take away visuals/music/etc except the written part and see if it's still good.' Keep in mind this is a visual novel with a reason.

A good visual novel doesn't only have to rely on text; it can tell you a whole damn lot about the environment and characters just by showing pictures. Whether that be emotions of characters or a certain atmosphere the backgrounds and music bring with them. Judge the package as a whole, the way it was intended to be experienced.

Lyra Lacrimosa
Newbie
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun May 22, 2011 2:49 pm
Contact:

Re: The argument against Generic Games

#54 Post by Lyra Lacrimosa » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:30 am

In all these arguments back and forth about art and writing and the balance between them, not once have I ever seen music being mentioned as an essential component of the game. (of course somebody would post after I wrote that)

I realize that not everyone can compose their own music or hire someone to do it for them, but I actually find that a bit sad. I've always found music to convey a much better atmosphere than almost any kind of visuals, though that's likely just me.

<- is studying to become a classical musician.

So personally, I'd put the emphasis on writing first, then sound, then art. Maybe others have different priorities, I don't know. But pretty anime-style art can NEVER even begin to make up for a boring storyline in my opinion. I don't mind it if others enjoy it or start out that way, but I don't think it's the place they should remain creatively.

...I also wish more people would include description and narrative summary in their visual "novels", especially for conveying action. DX A novel isn't made up of just dialogue; that's closer to being a screenplay. /tangent

User avatar
Anarchy
Veteran
Posts: 331
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:51 am
Projects: Fairy Tales of Innocent Children
Contact:

Re: The argument against Generic Games

#55 Post by Anarchy » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:43 am

I actually mentioned it last page. :)
Instead of thinking in a binary "art vs writing" dichotomy, I argue that we should think of all of the elements of the visual novel, including sound design, music, and so on, as all being integral to the experience.
I think the amount of description necessary depends on the style/tone of the story/writing, as well as how much is conveyed through art and sound.

User avatar
Auro-Cyanide
ssǝʇunoƆ ʇɹ∀
Posts: 3059
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:02 am
Completed: http://auro-cyanide.tumblr.com/visualnovels
Projects: Athena
Organization: Cyanide Tea
Tumblr: auro-cyanide
Deviantart: Auro-Cyanide
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: The argument against Generic Games

#56 Post by Auro-Cyanide » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:46 am

Lyra Lacrimosa wrote:In all these arguments back and forth about art and writing and the balance between them, not once have I ever seen music being mentioned as an essential component of the game. (of course somebody would post after I wrote that)

I realize that not everyone can compose their own music or hire someone to do it for them, but I actually find that a bit sad. I've always found music to convey a much better atmosphere than almost any kind of visuals, though that's likely just me.

<- is studying to become a classical musician.

So personally, I'd put the emphasis on writing first, then sound, then art. Maybe others have different priorities, I don't know. But pretty anime-style art can NEVER even begin to make up for a boring storyline in my opinion. I don't mind it if others enjoy it or start out that way, but I don't think it's the place they should remain creatively.

...I also wish more people would include description and narrative summary in their visual "novels", especially for conveying action. DX A novel isn't made up of just dialogue; that's closer to being a screenplay. /tangent
Don't worry, people like music, it's just not usually in an opening post... though it could be of course, especially if it was apart of a Youtube video of game play or something, that's always interesting. We have had people specifically ask after the music we use and the appropriate choice of music is very important. I personal love soundtracks because of the way they enrich a story *so much emotion*.

The thing is all elements are perfectly valid ways of communicating. Don't think of something as 'just pretty art' because it's not. It's a piece of visual communication. Writing is written communication, music and sound is aural communication and programming and mechanics are tactile communication. Everything is capable of saying something and to put one thing above another will simply limit you in what you want to say. Being able to understand all the elements and how they work is the first step to controlling your message.

Second this
Also, good art isn't half important as good art direction. Just because you don't have shiny nice art doesn't mean you can put what you do have to good use. The art is just a tool. Come to think of it, it's the same for writing. Both writing and art are just the tools a creator uses to tell a story. In the end, they're as only important as they are useful.
We are so far off topic I don't even know how to get back again. That said, this is/was a useful discussion to have and it probably needed to happen *shrug*

User avatar
sciencewarrior
Veteran
Posts: 356
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:02 pm
Projects: Valentine Square (writer) Spiral Destiny (programmer)
Location: The treacherous Brazilian Rainforest
Contact:

Re: The argument against Generic Games

#57 Post by sciencewarrior » Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:49 am

I think not every VN should aspire to be Art. In fact, I believe that most VNs shouldn't be Art, because that's how it works in every medium: most of it is comfort entertainment and guilty pleasures, but once you have a large enough ecosystem, the real works of Art naturally appear. Pokemon doesn't overshadow Grave of the Fireflies. X-Men doesn't overshadow Maus.

My own project isn't a work of Art. It's a high-school galge. It was a deliberate decision. I'm trying to make it a good galge, that portrays human emotions in a honest and believable way, that has appealing characters without objectifying them. If I can't write this, then I don't think I should be writing a SF thriller or historical drama.
Keep your script in your Dropbox folder.
It allows you to share files with your team, keeps backups of previous versions, and is ridiculously easy to use.

Mirage
Veteran
Posts: 313
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:57 am
Contact:

Re: The argument against Generic Games

#58 Post by Mirage » Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:54 am

Lyra Lacrimosa wrote: ...I also wish more people would include description and narrative summary in their visual "novels", especially for conveying action. DX A novel isn't made up of just dialogue; that's closer to being a screenplay. /tangent
No, just no. So many VN turns me off from being too descriptive. If I want some good descriptive story, I can just go read novel.

That is why we have Visual in Visual Novel. Every time I read description, especially when it comes to action, I always cringe as the arts often feel very disconnected to what was written. While I agree story is the most important in VN, I personally prefer if the medium itself is used to its maximum capability! Why must people have to argue which is more important? Why can't it all be important? Use texts, arts, and music, all of them to convey a story - and that is how I perceive the medium as a whole.

...And for the sake of being on topic... I have been making games for almost 10 years. Two of my most popular games are Otome Games. One of which is possibly the most generic I have written, and well... it is also known as my best game (Oh, the irony hurts so much.) Well, I believe originality is overrated. I love them and like to see more from people, but really, the majority don't care. I think people often seek for things more familiar to them.

User avatar
papillon
Arbiter of the Internets
Posts: 4053
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:37 am
Completed: lots; see website!
Projects: something mysterious involving yuri, usually
Organization: Hanako Games
Tumblr: hanakogames
Contact:

Re: The argument against Generic Games

#59 Post by papillon » Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:10 am

Well, I believe originality is overrated. I love them and like to see more from people, but really, the majority don't care. I think people often seek for things more familiar to them.
I'm going to ruin everyone's life by linking to TVTropes:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... Dissonance

Sometimes your attempt to make Great Art never quite takes off, but your silly little project - which is *enhanced* by all the skill you gained while struggling to build your masterpiece - is the one that goes places.

Even an incredibly tired premise can turn out to be great and fun in the right hands. It's not the premise that determines how it turns out.

On the other hand if we all sit around making nothing but Japanese high school stories we'll all go mad. :)

Distribution of attention will never be 100% equitable because that's just not how the world works. If you sit around being angry because someone else is getting "more" feedback than you are, you will poison yourself. Focus on what you have and increasing what you have or doing the best with what you have rather than obsessing over what someone else has.

Most people who hate on Twilight haven't read it. *I* haven't read it. I've heard all sorts of things about it, but I'm not going to go on a rant about people who liked it because *I Haven't Read It* and there's obviously _something_ appealing in it _somewhere_ to _some_ people.

Most people who hate on the entire romance novel genre *also* haven't read any of them. There are some truly appalling books published in that genre, things that make Twilight look like a magnum opus. There are also some kickass stories full of action, adventure, and yeah some sex as well. Since the only romance novels my mother owned were of the latter variety, I had a view of the genre as a kid that was just as incomplete as most people who've only heard about the mill of identical short category romances.

Okay, I'm just rambling now, I think I'll stop. :)

User avatar
Arcanum
Veteran
Posts: 229
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 9:07 am
Contact:

Re: The argument against Generic Games

#60 Post by Arcanum » Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:40 am

I think the fact that this is a hobbyist/indie community puts more pressure into finding out something that conforms less to the mainstream logic. After all, it's expected for it to be more experimental. Still, we have to remember that most people in the english community have less access to VNs, since that's still mainly a japanese thing, and it's hard to come across english ones (and here I talk about my experience with otome and BL - I know Hirameki has brought some BxG games, but I haven't played any)

Therefore I'm not surprised at all that many creators try to pass that cliche on their games: simply because, although everybody knows it's cliche and relies on tropes, most people haven't had the opportunity to play them yet to exhaustion. I can count on my hand how many otome VNs have been localized (and here I talk about otome because it's my experience - I can't talk about things I don't know), and two popular datings sims (TokiMemo 1 and 2) were fan translated.

t's been aknowledged already. For example, Lucky Rabbit Reflex was an attempt to bring something close to TokiMemo to the english fans, simply because the majority couldn't read japanese, and, even those two games having been fan-translated, there's still a shortage of dating sims that follow the same structure in english (even if there are 346592378465 games in japan following the same pattern of "study a week, meet boy on saturday"). Bizarrely enough, some people still want to play that because they have fun managing a schedule, picking up clothes and dating generic characters.

It's perfectly possible for people to enjoy both things. I particularly am as psyched for MoaCube's Cinders (with non-anime art, great characterization, thought out plot) as I'm for finally getting some money so I can spend on LRR. I'm female, 22, and that doesn't mean I can only enjoy a certain thing. To be honest, both kinds of VNs are unknown for me, because I only have access to english work. As much as I'm excited to play something that's new and innovative, with great writing, that plays on tropes, etc, I'm still excited for any kind of game with pretty one dimensional cpersonalities because a) I haven't had enough of that yet and b) everyone's allowed their guilty pleasures (and I have a complex 3dimensional fiancee already, don't need a 2d one that's equally complex XD) . Heck, show me someone that doesn't enjoy something particularly bad.

I get that it's disappointing when some great works aren't shown appreciation, but I think there are better ways of getting attention to particular works than being angry at the more "mainstream" VNs. Perhaps having a topic for some "unappreciated VN of the month" and such. My favorite VN in progress in this forum doesn't get as much love as I think it deserves, either >>' Of course, I think the best way to be supportive of more thought out VNs is to comment on their topic and show your love!

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users