The argument against Generic Games

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Re: The argument against Generic Games

#61 Post by DaFool » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:10 pm

This is a very very familiar discussion, some of the ideas here were tossed about a couple of months ago. If I remember it correctly, I was in the writing>art and BxG camp.

Let me tell you an old tale.

There were two writers.

One writes just to express himself. The other writes to entertain an audience.

The former produced lots of works, and was respected for the honesty of those works. But when the audience demographics changed, unfortunately his works were all but forgotten.

The latter also produced lots of works, and has finally gained recognition after so many years.

I asked the latter writer if and when the former writer should get his due someday in terms of recognition and renewed popularity, but the latter responded that it probably won't happen because he simply doesn't write to entertain or to grab the audience, as most popular writers do. But he would have succeeded at being able to express all the ideas he needed to express, a feat few are able to achieve.

And it is because of the former writer that the latter writer was inspired to start writing to begin with.
The former writer's name is mikey. The latter writer's name is Taleweaver.

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Re: The argument against Generic Games

#62 Post by Anarchy » Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:29 am

Somewhat relevant: Scratchware Manifesto.

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Re: The argument against Generic Games

#63 Post by LadyAvori » Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:15 pm

Anna wrote: A good visual novel doesn't only have to rely on text; it can tell you a whole damn lot about the environment and characters just by showing pictures. Whether that be emotions of characters or a certain atmosphere the backgrounds and music bring with them. Judge the package as a whole, the way it was intended to be experienced.
I absolutely agree with this. Its a visual novel and the visual aspect has to be respected as much as the writing. This doesn't mean your art has to be incredibly perfect. Frank Miller's "The Dark Knight Returns" is kind of rough to look at, at first, but the art really fits the mood of the comic. In fact, I can't think of any other way to present that particular story.

The art of a visual novel replaces much of the descriptive writing. It is another tool used in VNs to tell the story. Remove it and we lose a lot of context, tone, and description of the story. It would be like removing all the descriptive writing from "The Lord of the Rings," or from "Pride and Prejudice," or any other book for that matter.

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Re: The argument against Generic Games

#64 Post by GeneDNC » Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:17 am

I'm not getting into the art vs writing debate because I don't really care about which is better, I enjoy visual novels as a whole. I also think everyone's preferences will be different and that's fine by me. To take a page out of Austin Kleon's book: Make good art. Write good writing. Compose good music. Make good VNs, then share it with people. This also relates to what I want to ask next.
To the people, if you're still here, who are dissatisfied with the quality of stories that are popular:

What are you doing about it?

Besides talking about it in a thread of course? Take the initiative. If you see a game you think deserves more attention, go comment it up in their thread. Encourage that person and share their work with others. Write a good review of the game and link to it. Someone mentioned making an Unappreciated Game of the Month thread, well I think that's a great idea. The problem with complaining about something you don't like that is popular is that, well, in fact, it's a lot easier than doing something to help the things you do like that aren't.

This also ties in with what people have said about negative vs positive/constructive criticism.
Let's say I put this up in the Art section and for some reason a lot of people love it:


Clearly this is not the best art and sure you can just come in and say you hate it and it's the worst thing ever, but what would that accomplish? There's every chance I'll ignore you because you offended me and gave me no good reason why I should listen to you. Maybe my supporters will even take it upon themselves to defend me. It certainly won't inspire me to do something different just because you don't like it. Now if you did this:

i.e. complimented some parts that were good and offered advice on how I could approve, I'd be much more inclined to listen to you. In fact, it also shows me that you cared enough to make an effort to help me. The same thing applies to writing. Complaining is always easier than actually helping people. In the end of the day, it will be more productive to promote (good) things you like than try and prevent other people liking (inferior) things you don't.

So ends another GeneDNC late comment when everyone else’s probably moved on already. :P Also, OTL, sincerest apologies to Auro-Cyanide for butchering some of her art.

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Re: The argument against Generic Games

#65 Post by Auro-Cyanide » Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:07 am

GeneDNC wrote:So ends another GeneDNC late comment when everyone else’s probably moved on already. :P Also, OTL, sincerest apologies to Auro-Cyanide for butchering some of her art.
I thought so! :D I was "Is that... Is that Liam's hair?" and when I realised it was I promptly cracked up laughing XD

I agree with you. I have no problem discussing exactly why people have a problem with something. Maybe you find certain tropes to be damaging to social values. Maybe you have objective critique on how something can be done better. Maybe you have ideas about how something could be more innovative and creative. These are all things that are very much worth discussing and talking about. They are things that can improve our community and the way they work, even if it's just stopping people and getting them to consider what they are doing, even if they are divisive.

Objecting to something because you personally don't like it or because it's popular isn't going to fly :/ It's not going to help anyone, it's not going to give people things to think about and most importantly, it's totally subjective. Addressing issues is a good thing. Trying to get everyone to act the same? Not so much.

It's also good to try and do what you can to promote the type of stuff you like, and GeneDNC pointed out some great ways to do so. We are talking about quite a small community after all. We aren't talking about changing the AAA market. Your actions here can mean a lot.

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Re: The argument against Generic Games

#66 Post by Hijiri » Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:15 am

GeneDNC wrote:Someone mentioned making an Unappreciated Game of the Month thread, well I think that's a great idea.
The only problem with having said thread is that people will argue what deserves the spot and what dosen't, and even then you have to take into account as to whether or not the game is actyually being worked on, how much there is to show, etc. So it ends up being much more trouble than it's worth. However, if it is for, say, the Completed Games section, then I can get behind that idea since it is clear what games are unnapreciated over the ones that are.

And yes, "airing out the laundry" is a good thing, if only to solidify the diverse opinions of everyone on the board.
Now, because I started this topic, I'm going to end it with a summarization of the points made:
  • You can't change what people want, and you won't always get the attention you want.

    If you are unhappy with the current situation, you can either make an interesting twist to an already popular idea, or keep making things that are outside of the general populace's taste.

    Make use of the VN's special properties (writing, music, visuals) The importance of either one depends on the person reading it, but still, don't ignore them.

    Try to draw attention to projects you want people to notice. Get involved with it's production someway as a consumer, or as a developer if said project is yours.
Did I miss anything?
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