About pregression and experience systems

[Cochise]

Well...
This is a quite new for me, and i need some opinions.
For a visual novel, with a lot and text and all, what are your comments and suggestions about progression and experience systems?

In the beginning i think a simple 1:1 when some actions give 1 point directly to the attribute. But i wish give more points in some times, and this will make the value grow rapidly.

Then i think a system where i need N xp to grow the attribute from N to N+1. then i realized... when i with attribute = 7 i need perform seven actions to grow to 8...
Is to many interactivity...

Well.
What systems you use? What is appropriate to a visual novel?

[sciencewarrior]

I think you are approaching it wrong. A visual novel isn't a RPG. Forget experience, forget attributes. Just tell your story. A visual novel is an ebook with pictures and sound, and some of them let you jump to another page, like a "choose your adventure" book. That's all.

(okay, you can do more than that, but it starts being a mix of visual novel with something else)

[redeyesblackpanda]

Visual novels don't need those in most cases. I think it'd be more helpful to know what you're trying to write. If it's some sort of Clannad style slice of life Ren'Ai game, you just need branches. If you're trying to do something complex, like a dating sim, you might need more stats, but we'd still need to know what it is about and what sort of game play you'd want to give good answers. It sounds to me that you want to make some sort of a stat raising sim, but even those vary.

Basically:
To answer this, we'd need to know what your game is about.

[Cochise]

They don't are "attributes" in the commons sense, like strength or stamina, but personality attributes, like gentle and rude.
A god example of the effect i want is the Paragon/Renegate system in Mass Effect.

And i like this system for mensuration of affinity between characters too.
Right, i can do a lot only with boolean variables, but i don't like pure boolean reactions for secondary characters.

[Edit]

What exactly i want to do?
Don't know exactly right now.
I want 3 main branches of story.
And i want some non linearity too. (because this numerical values for relationships, not boolean)
And i want "know" about the player trough their actions, and show options for him that matches this behavior.
I now working in a selection of "attributes" to catch information. Initially thinking in etiquette, bravery, some about intent to date others...
But also hedonism, altruism, etc. I need to systematize this yet.

[ThisIsNoName]

Well, why not just do what Mass Effect does: just do a percentage of total points, instead of having "levels". Each choice would provide different amounts of points for attributes. That way it's more intuitive for the reader, since they can see a direct correlation between the decisions they make and their personality.

But I agree with the others, it would help a lot to know what type of story you want to tell. It doesn't have to be all that specific, just enough for us to get a sense of how the game play can enhance the story instead of getting in the way.

[Cochise]

ThisIsNoName:

The readers don't have access for this numbers. They play, choice what like and the story adapt himself for the choices.

[kaleidofish]

What exactly i want to do?
Don't know exactly right now.
I want 3 main branches of story.
And i want some non linearity too. (because this numerical values for relationships, not boolean)
And i want "know" about the player trough their actions, and show options for him that matches this behavior.
I now working in a selection of "attributes" to catch information. Initially thinking in etiquette, bravery, some about intent to date others...
But also hedonism, altruism, etc. I need to systematize this yet.

I'm doing something similar - although more simplistic - for a visual novel I'm working on now. I'm just using named variables, because they're easier for me to work with than numbers. Depending on which flag is marked as true (e.g., if money_stolen = true), the dialogue and routes change up. The main character's base personality changes as a result of his actions. I don't have to get into messy numbersville or deal with lots of personality variables.

And the flags stack on top of each other (e.g., if money_stolen and if sassy_response) to result in other plot changes. There's branching within the branches. It's way easier for me to keep up with that than numbers, even if it might lead to messier coding in the long run. It's also easier for me to rely on this type of named variable branching because my character doesn't start off as a blank slate. And, I'm not using any attributes in the way you plan to, so your mileage may vary if you go down the wordy route.

[sciencewarrior]

My suggestion is to try to do more with fewer attributes. If you have 3 routes, probably 3 attributes are enough. Let's say, just as an example, you choose fairness, gentleness, and self-control. Then, once the character follows the fairness path, he may discover that fairness without gentleness to temper it can lead to inflexibility and even brutality; or without the self-control necessary to follow his convictions he can become a hypocrite. Few variables, lots of interactions.

[MoPark]

To fully rule out the use of a "point" system, simply because you're making a VN, is not smart.

Here's quick example: You have three characters you can hook up with. Throughout the game, you are interacting with all of them, and you can calculate positive interaction as a point up. Near the end of the story, the game will determine which character you are most positive with, and then will pair you with them. In that sense, the main branching doesn't happen until later, though you'll have more minor branches earlier on based on your choices, of course.

A good analogy would be the VN elements of Final Fantasy VII, where the game will determine who you'd go on a date with based on your responses to the dialogue options.

[gekiganwing]

Cochise, if you're learning about statistics and variables, then please make sure to read the Renpy Web Tutorial's guide to remembering user choices.

If you want to build a game which is focused on shaping the main character's attitude and personality, go for it. Is your intention to make a game in which you're essentially role-playing this individual? If so, then as long as you convey this to your readers/players, I think they'll understand it.

[Cochise]

Thanks gekiganwing, but the programming is not the challenge.
I wish a more speculative discussion.

I nearly going to use a 1:1 system, regardless the possibility of hight numbers.
Maybe this can give more control.

[Androol]

In the speculativ way, if i anderstand your first post your problem is that by using a classic rpg angle on xp you have trouble with the increasing action needed to continue increasing relation lvl.
An easy way to solve this is to don't increase the xp cost at each lvl. Instead of 1xp/lvl1 2/2 3/3 etc... you can use a 1/1 1/2 1/3 2/4 2/5 2/6 3/7 3/8 etc ... you can do it even faster or slower. thats the easy way i think.

If you want somthing more interesting you can add psychology on it. With certain people, breaking the ice at the begining of the relationship is the harder part of the relation and after that the realtion is easyer to build up. For other thats mor linear or the begining is easy but the chalenge is to spice up the relationship or he/she will go to see if its not somone more interesting elsewere. If you folow thats path to build a xp patern, with a shy character to seduce/sympatise with, you will have a xp patern who will more look like 6/1 4/2 3/3 2/4 1/5 1/6 1/7 2/8 2/9 3/10. With average people it will more be like 3/1 2/2 2/3 2/4 2/5 2/6 2/7 3/8 3/9 4/10. With easy going people it will more be like 1/1 1/2 1/3 2/4 2/5 3/6 3/7 4/8 4/9 4/10.

Thats just a fast doed pattern, it can be more intense, i let the xp needed up at the end for every pattern but it can be 1/9 1/10 for the first exemple with higher cost for the begining. I also tryed to get the same amount of point in the exemples, but you can decide for some skills/people it will need 10 interaction to reach the max lvl and for other 30 interaction to reach the max lvl. Learning to play childish boared game at max lvl is not the same as be an expert rocket scientist, seduce the desperate boy/girl next door can be easy but with the top model who was on the cover of your favorit newspaper yesterday you will need more comitment.

Sorry for my poor english by the way.

[Cochise]

I'm a pen and paper RPG player, and the best computer RPG in my opinion is Fallout 1 and 2.

For structure the history a want something more like SAS (Storytelling Adventure System), by With Wolf, not the traditional D&D adventures.
http://flamesrising.rpgnow.com/product_ ... s_id=62807

The VN is not about romantic relationships (I need to write a abstract in the writing section), but a grimdark steampunk adventure where the main choices of the character are about him geopolitical side. British Empire, Turkish Empire and one African nation (Banto, i presume, regardless the incoherence).
The old trope of a nothing people who can decide the future of nations.

[Androol]

I'm a rpg pen and paper fan too, mastering vampire from more than 15 year and worked on a mod on the online game VTRM for some year. No need to convince me the WoD is better than d&d, we agreed on this befor we cross our path apparently, even if i think the strengh of white wolf's game are the history background more than the game system who sucks like almost every pen and paper rpg systeme.

I dont think romance or not change a lot of things seduction/empathy/manipulation work almost the same in diplomacy, spying etc... as it work in romance. That's why i say "seduce/sympatise" in the previouse post and it was only an exemple. I said "learn to play childish game" and "become a rocket scientist" in another exemple, that will not help the character a lot in romance game i think.
If you dont want to work on the xp needed to incrase lvl you have to work on the xp you get from the interaction. I mean basicaly it's not a lot of way to solve your problem i see 3 but maybe other exist.

1: you reduce the cost for lvl increase as i try to explain before. (by lvl i dont say it in the d&d way by character level but the "abilities/attributes/whatever you want to call it" lvl, as the humanity lvl or dodge lvl when you play a vampire in the wod or rage for a werewolf, etc...)
2: you increase the xp you get from interaction. Some interaction can give, or make you loose, more xp than just one.
3: mix option 1 and 2.

But maybe i don't get what you where looking for, my english is far from good, or you dont get my answer for the same reason.

[Cochise]

I'm a Brazilian with a poor English. The Firefox's spell checker is my best friend here.

The idea about the costs, with progression in a scale with repeat of values...
Is interesting. A lot and i need to think about.
I like 1-10 scales, because they are very intuitive, then maybe the scales of costs 1-1 2-2-2 3-3 4-4 5 will be the answer.

In math terms:
This scale represent 27 interactions with reward of +1.
If the character has 4 "personalty traces" a hypothetical "all full" from the tabula rasa is 27*4= 108 interactions.
I don't want the possibility to fulfill the stats, then maybe... 70%? 76 points to end the game with the maximum stats.
If ≃ 20% if interactions can reward 2 points ans ≃ 10% 3 points...
15 points = 5 actions
24 points = 12 actions
37 points = 37 actions
76 points = 54 actions
54 interactions for the all game is a good number. Is hight, need a long story, but the character is not all void... is a fabric worker, with plans to turn him to a gang member.

But... for relationships (and i want a lot of politic here) 27 interactions is a lot. I like more a unified scale with different rewards to a new scale for relationships. More common +2 and +3 maybe...

thank you Androol.