Hmmmm Suikoden isn't really a good example for what papillon is suggesting. I've played through the original Suikoden completely, and played through MOST of the second, and there really isn't much in the way of romance - at all. There's a little bit in Suikoden 2 but it's almost nonexistant in the original. It's not what Papillon is mentioning because it's more *do this and these people join, then they have practically nothing to do with the hero afterwards* as opposed to *there is some sort of connection with the hero*...most seem to join the hero because they don't have anything better to do. And it's a cast of 108, at least on the first two =)
Interesting question Papillon mentioned...no one translates these sorts of games. Wonder why?
Replayability
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The Easy to give answer:Interesting question Papillon mentioned...no one translates these sorts of games. Wonder why?
Effort, time plus cost to actually translate something of that size, even the VN RPG's can be huge, goes against the expected number of sales. Or basically, they won't make money off of it.
Its true that RPG's popularity are on the rise (and one could argue the VN market in America is as well, but considering the size of the market that isn't that impressive) however a fairly small percentage of those RPGs are even deemable marketable to the American audience. Even less then that for us poor Europeoners. I expect few companies are willing to take the high cost risk of getting a RPG with VN overtones, espically as they normally have less flashy graphics and no to few CG effects that normally brings in the crowds/buyers.
Of course what that leaves is a dedicated fanbased translation, which happens but as many know it can take years and years and there are only so many fans who can do this sort of work out there, and so many games to translate.
Personally I'd be pretty interested in seeing games like THIS and THIS (Warning 18+/21+ graphics to be found in some places in there). The sky pirateing one really does look interesting but can you imagine all the work to translate all of it? No, it is unforantly unlikely to see daylight over here until the market grows and grows. Which isn't impossible. When I was a lad I never thought anime/manga would become as popular as it is now. Just I wouldn't hold my breath.
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As for Ever 17 being exactly what replayability should be:
I suppose thats open to whoever is playing the game. Personally I can see it as nice that you only get the full story when going through it all again and again but at the same time I don't completely agree with it. To me it feels like really trying to force and push it on you, so instead of being able to relax and just take it through, I know I need to do everything just so I can finally find out whats going on. I do like having two main characters though and that at least did draw me back initially.
Uff, I finally read the article, along with all the comments, here are my suggestions and ideas for it.
==== FIRST PART ====
++ True Linearity
The main idea is not to put the terms together - a LINEAR gamecan well be REPLAYABLE, even a heavily story-based one (kinetic novel) - if you include hints and moments in the story that the reader can appreciate when he finds out something at the end of the story, it may be nice to read the story again with those in mind and have a better understanding, or a different experience.
++ Perceived Linearity
In here, the replayability isn't in the story, but in the OTHER gameplay element - such as action, the desire to attain perfection, puzzles, etc... The story usually takes a backseat anyway, so the dominant gameplay mechanic is not the reading. Story and action are both linear, but the action is replayable, and so the game as a whole is also replayable, even when the story gets useless later on (cancelling FMVs and dialogues just to get to the action part)
++ Replayability
+++ Fake replayability
(Fahrenheit is a good example)
+++ True replayability
++++ story branching (depending on direct choices, with path tree, the outcome is selected)
(Figures & Gloria are a good example)
++++ story allocation (depending on stats, variables, or choices, bits of the story/outcome are allocated by the program)
(Princess Maker is a good example for stats/management/actions that give you points - you get the story for which you raise the girl)
(Season Of The Sakura is another example for choices that give you points - depending on points for each character, you move on)
==== SECOND PART ====
Story branching (the outcome is chosen by the player) and story allocation (the outcome is calculated/assigned) are the basic two principles, usually you find them in mixed forms. IMO it's useless to categorize any deeper, instead just focus on describing the gameplay of selected games to show in how many ways the two concepts can be put together.
Again, it's hard to chew through the term "replayability", as it's way too broad, more something like "repeated story experience" or something along those lines could describe it better.
And, I would definitely also keep the comments about "Do we really NEED it"? Replay value is an expression you will find on the back of a retail box - and even though it's a very important consideration when you create commercial games, high replay value does not necessarily have to be the priority, let alone a design goal for a visual novel (let alone a free one).
==== FIRST PART ====
++ True Linearity
The main idea is not to put the terms together - a LINEAR gamecan well be REPLAYABLE, even a heavily story-based one (kinetic novel) - if you include hints and moments in the story that the reader can appreciate when he finds out something at the end of the story, it may be nice to read the story again with those in mind and have a better understanding, or a different experience.
++ Perceived Linearity
In here, the replayability isn't in the story, but in the OTHER gameplay element - such as action, the desire to attain perfection, puzzles, etc... The story usually takes a backseat anyway, so the dominant gameplay mechanic is not the reading. Story and action are both linear, but the action is replayable, and so the game as a whole is also replayable, even when the story gets useless later on (cancelling FMVs and dialogues just to get to the action part)
++ Replayability
+++ Fake replayability
(Fahrenheit is a good example)
+++ True replayability
++++ story branching (depending on direct choices, with path tree, the outcome is selected)
(Figures & Gloria are a good example)
++++ story allocation (depending on stats, variables, or choices, bits of the story/outcome are allocated by the program)
(Princess Maker is a good example for stats/management/actions that give you points - you get the story for which you raise the girl)
(Season Of The Sakura is another example for choices that give you points - depending on points for each character, you move on)
==== SECOND PART ====
Story branching (the outcome is chosen by the player) and story allocation (the outcome is calculated/assigned) are the basic two principles, usually you find them in mixed forms. IMO it's useless to categorize any deeper, instead just focus on describing the gameplay of selected games to show in how many ways the two concepts can be put together.
Again, it's hard to chew through the term "replayability", as it's way too broad, more something like "repeated story experience" or something along those lines could describe it better.
And, I would definitely also keep the comments about "Do we really NEED it"? Replay value is an expression you will find on the back of a retail box - and even though it's a very important consideration when you create commercial games, high replay value does not necessarily have to be the priority, let alone a design goal for a visual novel (let alone a free one).
Mm... I guess we could approach this from a "pleasurable replay" point of view. As you say, a single story could actually lead to a pleasurable replay because it contains elements that can shine under a new light.
I'm not sure we can put Gloria in the strictly story branching system. At the end of a game, there's a summary of how much each girl likes you, even those you don't end up with. I doubt this is achieved through careful analysis of a branch chart
. Gloria might be a good example of a mix between the two systems. Figures is a great example of branch-only gameplay though.
Should I dwelve deeper into the present games or expose other games instead?
Yet another approach could include anything that "furthers the experience". Multiple paths, things you understand only on a second replay and even bonus material. But it might get a bit too broad then.
I'm not sure we can put Gloria in the strictly story branching system. At the end of a game, there's a summary of how much each girl likes you, even those you don't end up with. I doubt this is achieved through careful analysis of a branch chart
. Gloria might be a good example of a mix between the two systems. Figures is a great example of branch-only gameplay though.Should I dwelve deeper into the present games or expose other games instead?
Yet another approach could include anything that "furthers the experience". Multiple paths, things you understand only on a second replay and even bonus material. But it might get a bit too broad then.
I think a few examples from our own games could also be good - similarly to E17, there are numerous "true-ending-based" games here - Kaori and O3 are ones from ATP. An example for branching could be Moonlight Walks, and so on. So for instance, analyze E17 and point out games that have similar structure. Just to make it more interesting and closer to the potential developer - he can try out many of the games for free. Also, including alltogether games should be a good thing, people will be able to try the concepts for free, and so on. It could be a developer-friendly inspirational article this way.
I think so, too, this may fall under something more general, although it's not entirely unrelated - but I think it's best to stick with the gameplay structure - besides, the unique elements can be described in the discussions in the second part - the example games.monele wrote:Yet another approach could include anything that "furthers the experience". Multiple paths, things you understand only on a second replay and even bonus material. But it might get a bit too broad then.
On the other hand, this does usually strictly limit the number of revists to two. Consider, if you've seen movies like Fight Club or Sixth Sense; you watch it once, it's a new experience, you watch it a second time, you pick up a lot of subtle new things that you probably missed the first time through, but a third time you already know everything there is to know and the experience will once more be relatively dulled. I suspect that the human brain can still remember and pick up on enough that a story that back-propagates more than once will probably still get worked out in the second sitting by most people.mikey wrote:a LINEAR gamecan well be REPLAYABLE, even a heavily story-based one (kinetic novel) - if you include hints and moments in the story that the reader can appreciate when he finds out something at the end of the story, it may be nice to read the story again with those in mind and have a better understanding, or a different experience.
Of course, this is still predicated on the idea that '[re]playability' needs new content, and the number of times people read a good book suggests this isn't everything.
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Agreed - that's the stories with a point, like detective stories and such - but take the light James Bond movies - it's all about punchlines and quick change of settings, and there's no real point, not one you wouldn't expect - but I like to see them over and over again just so, for no apparent reason.
So maybe the key to making a linear text-based game replayable (more than twice) is not in the story, but in the dialogue?
So maybe the key to making a linear text-based game replayable (more than twice) is not in the story, but in the dialogue?
The atmosphere, which can be had from dialogue, graphics, or music (and music is definitely replayable--you'll have to make the music mesh perfectly with the scene that you must replay the scene to get the full effect)mikey wrote: So maybe the key to making a linear text-based game replayable (more than twice) is not in the story, but in the dialogue?
The movies that have captured me with atmosphere tended to be either slice-of-life or stunt-action. Neither of which really try to drive home a point in the story. But then, for slice-of-life at least, you can easily expand that to a multipath VN without destroying its integrity.
For those interested in game images below I have linked their title to my Hgame review webpage (18+) , but the reviews are french only.
++ Perceived Linearity
Tetsuwan Gacchu (Smash Melee Brother clone Hgame)
Pretty limited in term of VN, you choose your girl fighter at the beginning and follow her path until the end with no choice but victory at each encounter, but there are some long chit chat between opponent and some nifty effect (especially the dialog effect which work like LittleWitch games, a bubble that change shape to express emotions). The game use and abuse of all otaku cliche with some good humor (each fighter represent a moe cliche), and you can multiplay to up to 4 players (though 4 Hgame players would be a bit difficult to find in another country than Japan :p ).
Replay is very high because there are many goodies to unlock while playing (you accumulate money while fighting and unlock wallpaper, secret char, voices, music, sound...). I got addicted a long time to multiplayer mode which had a lot of battle objectives to choose and a decent CPU.
+++ True replayability
++++ Story branching
The Sakura Teisen serie is the most popular tactical non-H VN game when you think about dating sim. You can decide "to chase" a particulary girl when you talk or go to her place. The latest episoded had also a LIPS system that would enhance or revoke your timed answer depending on how fast and with how much conviction (analog pad pressing) you choose it. During battles, the more you would protect one girl during an attack and the more she would become friendly to you.
At the end of the game, if you accumulate enough point with your desired girl, she would become your bride...until the next episode
+++++ Mixed Story branching + Story Allocation
Pastel Chime 2/C++ (RPG Hgame)
Typical stats raising sim but the stats you are raising are...yours (you can see the stats of others but I don't think they have an storyline impact of the game). One part is dedicated to your training as a hero in a hero's school, another is choosing a partner for some dungeon roaming. The more you choose someone (girl or guy), the more friendly you get with her/him. There is no classic VN choices but choosing a specific partner unlock his CG events and so on until his ending scene, it is basically the same. You fail if you either can't reach a particular stat or have not enough friendship point with any of your teammates.
The replayability is high because you have 9 classmates and 4 heroines, each of them has their own story (each path is different). But when you have finished them all the game will easily go to dust (it take a lot of time to build stats).
Another similar Hgame is also Suzuruki Dragon, but this time you manage a dragon dungeon in a Dungeon Keeper like gameplay.
Duel Savior/Justice (Solo Guardian Heroes clone Hgame)
My main reference for VN transition effect (transition scene, dialogue scene, UI...) with a very strong story and a good gameplay (which could have been even better if it had a multiplayer component).
The storyline change with classic VN choices, but also depending on who you would like to visit on a map and also on the battle results (yes, in this game you must sometimes lose a fight to access a particular girl scene).
The game share obligatory scenes and battles but only in the beginning and sometimes middle of the story. 6 girls and 1 harem path are availables, but the replayability is high because of bonus content is the addon disc Justice, which allow you to play in Parry Mode (parry all attacks of all characters) and a Survival Mode (unlocking all characters to play with, even enemies). The Survival Mode has no limit (the battle counter cap at 999 999 but still go on) but you can get a bit bored before.
Also usually I go play one specific saved chapter for a quick fight, and to try to decipher how the novel part is done (the engine doesn't seems to be Onscripter but can manage huge and fast transitions).
Not quite Visual Novel related but as we have some creator thats intend to make some RPG related VN :
++ Perceived Linearity
Succubus Quest (RPGmaker made Hgame)
It is your basic rpg with an original game system (a Sex Battle System where you need to give so much pleasure to your opponent that she have to give up the fight), but it use some VN part in it (some dialogues scene, seduction choice system during battle...).
The replayability is potentialy good because at the end of the game (which has 3 endings depending on your sex capacity in the last battles), there is a secret dungeon with lot of levels "Seraphic Gate"-like. Unfortunately only hardcore gamer will go in and for the rest the game is totally finished (the game in itself is pretty harsh for non-japanese player).
++ Perceived Linearity
Tetsuwan Gacchu (Smash Melee Brother clone Hgame)
Pretty limited in term of VN, you choose your girl fighter at the beginning and follow her path until the end with no choice but victory at each encounter, but there are some long chit chat between opponent and some nifty effect (especially the dialog effect which work like LittleWitch games, a bubble that change shape to express emotions). The game use and abuse of all otaku cliche with some good humor (each fighter represent a moe cliche), and you can multiplay to up to 4 players (though 4 Hgame players would be a bit difficult to find in another country than Japan :p ).
Replay is very high because there are many goodies to unlock while playing (you accumulate money while fighting and unlock wallpaper, secret char, voices, music, sound...). I got addicted a long time to multiplayer mode which had a lot of battle objectives to choose and a decent CPU.
+++ True replayability
++++ Story branching
The Sakura Teisen serie is the most popular tactical non-H VN game when you think about dating sim. You can decide "to chase" a particulary girl when you talk or go to her place. The latest episoded had also a LIPS system that would enhance or revoke your timed answer depending on how fast and with how much conviction (analog pad pressing) you choose it. During battles, the more you would protect one girl during an attack and the more she would become friendly to you.
At the end of the game, if you accumulate enough point with your desired girl, she would become your bride...until the next episode
+++++ Mixed Story branching + Story Allocation
Pastel Chime 2/C++ (RPG Hgame)
Typical stats raising sim but the stats you are raising are...yours (you can see the stats of others but I don't think they have an storyline impact of the game). One part is dedicated to your training as a hero in a hero's school, another is choosing a partner for some dungeon roaming. The more you choose someone (girl or guy), the more friendly you get with her/him. There is no classic VN choices but choosing a specific partner unlock his CG events and so on until his ending scene, it is basically the same. You fail if you either can't reach a particular stat or have not enough friendship point with any of your teammates.
The replayability is high because you have 9 classmates and 4 heroines, each of them has their own story (each path is different). But when you have finished them all the game will easily go to dust (it take a lot of time to build stats).
Another similar Hgame is also Suzuruki Dragon, but this time you manage a dragon dungeon in a Dungeon Keeper like gameplay.
Duel Savior/Justice (Solo Guardian Heroes clone Hgame)
My main reference for VN transition effect (transition scene, dialogue scene, UI...) with a very strong story and a good gameplay (which could have been even better if it had a multiplayer component).
The storyline change with classic VN choices, but also depending on who you would like to visit on a map and also on the battle results (yes, in this game you must sometimes lose a fight to access a particular girl scene).
The game share obligatory scenes and battles but only in the beginning and sometimes middle of the story. 6 girls and 1 harem path are availables, but the replayability is high because of bonus content is the addon disc Justice, which allow you to play in Parry Mode (parry all attacks of all characters) and a Survival Mode (unlocking all characters to play with, even enemies). The Survival Mode has no limit (the battle counter cap at 999 999 but still go on) but you can get a bit bored before
.Also usually I go play one specific saved chapter for a quick fight, and to try to decipher how the novel part is done (the engine doesn't seems to be Onscripter but can manage huge and fast transitions).
Not quite Visual Novel related but as we have some creator thats intend to make some RPG related VN :
++ Perceived Linearity
Succubus Quest (RPGmaker made Hgame)
It is your basic rpg with an original game system (a Sex Battle System where you need to give so much pleasure to your opponent that she have to give up the fight), but it use some VN part in it (some dialogues scene, seduction choice system during battle...).
The replayability is potentialy good because at the end of the game (which has 3 endings depending on your sex capacity in the last battles), there is a secret dungeon with lot of levels "Seraphic Gate"-like. Unfortunately only hardcore gamer will go in and for the rest the game is totally finished (the game in itself is pretty harsh for non-japanese player).
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Enerccio
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LOL you made Princess Maker?papillon wrote:I can vouch that actual players of Kishi have indeed wasted enough time to get every single ending. Without a walkthrough. (Which was necessary, since it was one of these super-hardcore players who figured out that one ending was broken and got me to fix it.) Of course, a playthrough of KK is shorter than a playthrough of PM.54 endings looks cool... but really, you won't play 54 times. Most importantly, without a FAQ, there's no way you'll get them all in only 54 playthroughs. I don't think anyone has that much time to waste nowadays?And MOST people don't have the energy to find them all, at least not anytime soon.
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