Lemma Soft Forums

Why don't I ever see games here with characters facing each other from both sides of the screen?
Is there a problem with that? or is it just really hard to do?
most games well, probably all here have front view characters facing at the player
why though?

Like our game? http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... 43&t=13265

It's generally a perspective thing. When the protagonist is off screen and the story is first person, the characters tend to face the screen because that is who they are talking to. If the protagonist is on screen and/or in third person, the characters tend to face each other. You can have both happening where they face the player and then turn to face other characters when talking to them, though this is obviously a bit more work. I cheated with RisAmo by just have a forward facing set of eyes and a side facing set of eyes.

Well, that would definitely require more art. You'd need characters facing three directions, which means 3 times as many sprites. It's also harder to draw people from the side. Also, sometimes, the characters are talking in the player's direction.

Another possible reason could be "cheating out." When actors act on stage, they try to keep their body and face facing the audience as much as possible, as it helps convey emotion better.

Do you mean something like that?

Repeating Auro and panda: need more sprites = more work.
To get a sense of just how much, take a look at Miles Edgeworth's spritesheet.

Ah, Swordcraft Story, brings back memories.

Also, personally I just don't like to draw the main character. And you have to consider how to fit many people into one screen if you add the main character as well.

I tried to do something like that in a NaNoRenO project that went absolutely nowhere: Link.
But the motivation for that was that I wanted third person writing, and for the player to be more disconnected from the protagonists, since I felt that they might be more inclined to push the story towards a tragedy if the VN didn't try to have them identify with the characters as much. So in general, third person view for third person writing and first person view for first person writing isn't a bad rule.

However, I would like to point out that you can have more useful poses when characters are looking towards each other sideways. Here's a scene I made that would otherwise only have worked from the male character's point of view, but not from hers or from a bystander's (apologies for the quality, there's a reason I ditched this project). I had also planned a kissing sprite, but never got around to it; regardless, you can see how that wouldn't work from first person perspective, and people generally have to make a CG for such events. Any kind of physical contact is nigh impossible with the 'traditional' way of portraying things.

I wouldn't really think it's much harder either, although you do have to take into account that most people's clothing (and often, hair) is asymmetrical and so the left-facing and right-facing versions need to be slightly different.

I frequently have characters facing each other, but I use 3D artwork as opposed to 2D sprites, and none of my VNs are posted in the 'general audience' area. If you want to see a sample, send me a PM and I'll provide a link.

There just happens to be a lot of VNs told from first-person perspective, so the characters look at the screen to engage the players. On the other hand, most RPGs are told from third-person so if they have cut-ins that use sprite artwork they tend to face one side. (Disgaea or Super Robot Taisen for instance)

People are trying all kinds of stuff though! There's several VNs trying the third-person perspective, including mine. I don't actually feel that it makes a big difference on the workload though. Even stories told in first-person will usually have characters turned slightly to one side because the profile is more expressive of how a person looks than a dead-on view. The main difference is whether or not the characters are making eye contact with the reader.

I don't like when I can see the protag... because I kinda wanna feel that "I" am the protag if I'm playing an otome game or something. Unlike a book, a game or visual novels are the few ways where this can happen. I want the characters to face me and make it feel I'm the one going through the motions. You can't do this in a book, so that's why the game, vns are interesting. Otherwise it's just a comic book I have to click through. (My opinion!)

This isn't to write the story in first person present tense I'm assume people playing otome games or any type of similar vn, they are actually cooing over the guys/girls and they probably prefer to have the characters interact directly with them rather than a protag the may or may not like. If the heroine character doesn't appeal to me or I don't like how she reacts to people, it totally turns me off and I'll not want her to end up with any of the awesome guys.

I wanted to do that, since I really wanted to draw the main character for my current project, but some problems:

1) If you have more than two characters talking, some people will face other people's backs and it becomes a little weird.
2) Not presenting actions done by the MC (such as picking up papers) and such in the form of sprites feels weird, so it requires more sprite-work.
3) Fights... unless you spam CGs or have an actual battle system... how am I going to do fights!? ;_;

It's mainly problem 3 which stopped me from using this style.

Anna wrote:1) If you have more than two characters talking, some people will face other people's backs and it becomes a little weird.

You can always layer them. As in have one just a little farther back from the other sprite in his/her space, similar to this.

Anna wrote:2) Not presenting actions done by the MC (such as picking up papers) and such in the form of sprites feels weird, so it requires more sprite-work.

You don't need to add sprites for everything. Some mundane things can be ignored.

Anna wrote:3) Fights... unless you spam CGs or have an actual battle system... how am I going to do fights!? ;_;

You really don't need to spam CG's. Just let the narrative do the fighting and kept most of the regular sprites. In a VN I read a while back, Secret Game CODE: Revise, they mostly used the writing to do the fight scenes in NVL mode, and had only a few CG's of the characters that only changed expressions.

Hijiri wrote:

Anna wrote:1) If you have more than two characters talking, some people will face other people's backs and it becomes a little weird.

You can always layer them. As in have one just a little farther back from the other sprite in his/her space, similar to this.

You can layer them, but it creates an artificial divide between the left/right sprites. Doesn't solve the 'talking to someone's back' awkwardness either.

Hijiri wrote: You don't need to add sprites for everything. Some mundane things can be ignored.

I know, but the sprites will still be more than average because you have to show important actions or it will look really static. It also looks a little strange when the main character does something but you don't see it, especially when the sprites are waist-up or something.

This is a rather minor problem for me, but it will increase the time needed to finish the project by a lot. Still, the main problems are the talking to each others' backs and making the fighting scenes look good.

You really don't need to spam CG's. Just let the narrative do the fighting and kept most of the regular sprites. In a VN I read a while back, Secret Game CODE: Revise, they mostly used the writing to do the fight scenes in NVL mode, and had only a few CG's of the characters that only changed expressions.

I find using such CGs to be really static, and the things which occur in the fighting scenes I'm doing are impossible to express with just one CG that changes expressions.

Normally we do most of the fighting with sprites and effects, but it looks incredibly derpy when you do it with sprites facing each other because there's less space and all the attacks are aimed towards the MC on screen, which makes the tension lower for the reader and makes the perceived distance between enemy and MC less than it should be.

The only way I can see it working is by doing it the way Fate/Stay Night did when servants fought; CGs showing the main event + zooming and panning all over them + extra battle sprites which you see now and then. But even there they used first person view and often only showed one sprite on the screen during fights as a short break or to indicate expressions, before moving over to another CG. Contains spoilers for F/SN, but here's an example of what I mean with lots of fighting CGs: http://i45.tinypic.com/2d99uuw.png

I think it could work, but it would mean a lot of CGs ^^;. Maybe I'll look at the script once it's done and count how many CGs would result from it and how many people will appear on screen at once, and then decide whether it would work or not. I'll show this discussion to my coder too and see what she has to say.

Anna wrote:

Hijiri wrote: You don't need to add sprites for everything. Some mundane things can be ignored.

I know, but the sprites will still be more than average because you have to show important actions or it will look really static. It also looks a little strange when the main character does something but you don't see it, especially when the sprites are waist-up or something.

This is a rather minor problem for me, but it will increase the time needed to finish the project by a lot. Still, the main problems are the talking to each others' backs and making the fighting scenes look good.

Ohh you can also take them out of the screen and add an sfx, I have an scene where the main character appears on the screen also and he helps another character to cook, so they are constanly moving and having sfx to justify their actions.

superhbman wrote:Repeating Auro and panda: need more sprites = more work.
To get a sense of just how much, take a look at Miles Edgeworth's spritesheet.

That example is a misrepresentation. Most of those sprites are identical except for some changes, and show a lot of animation frames. It isn't indicative of the amount of work needed to add an extra sprite for the MC in a standard VN.

Anna wrote: I know, but the sprites will still be more than average because you have to show important actions or it will look really static. It also looks a little strange when the main character does something but you don't see it, especially when the sprites are waist-up or something.

Why is that strange? That's exactly what happens with all the other characters and NPCs in a VN. Why should the MC's sprite show important actions when no other sprite does?

Anna wrote: This is a rather minor problem for me, but it will increase the time needed to finish the project by a lot. Still, the main problems are the talking to each others' backs and making the fighting scenes look good.

My solution would be to overlap the characters, like so:

As if they are standing beside each other. No one is talking to any one else's back that way, and the two groups talking aren't crowded into each other's space.