Superdoll feasibility

[DaFool]

Speaking of which... the thing I find most disadvantageous about using Alice and Betty is that there is no Alex and Benny to go along with them. I can't tell you how many times I've wanted to include a MALE character, but simply couldn't find one to fit. So do please please please make sure both sexes are represented.

-Dizzy-

Oh, most definitely. While basic expressions will be shared by the genders, they will be tailored to be specific to either male or female -- for example, lots of moe poses for the girls, and lots of hot-blood poses for the guys.

For now there will be 6 character types:

Child
Teen Girl
Teen Boy
Adult Woman
Adult Man
Monster

The last one will be a special creature tailored to a specific story it was designed for, but may be released later. Each character type will have 14 basic expressions (I have them classified in a spreadsheet at home, I'll post them later then ask what expressions are missing). I'm thinking of adding more but this is enough to handle for now.

There will also be clothing themes. Right now I have planned
-Medieaval
-Geomancer
but will not release them since they are specific (and thus special) to my projects)
but after some time I will release them. I'll most probably release community-targeted themes such as:
-School Life
-Space Sci-Fi
(which seem to be the most common themes of Visual Novels being produced nowadays)

and anything else you may come up with.

The Child can swing either male or female, so no biggie. The only problem is that when I design clothes to fit I have already made the character nude so I know which way the folds should go. And I have ethical problems regarding releasing a Paperdoll of a nude child. As for the others I'll have to blacken or obfuscate the base torsos and have the nude ones be special requests for people I trust can justifiably do a respectable eroge. Call me a pervert or whatever, but sometimes when I do a good job even I am turned on by my own drawings.

The true test of success for me will be if I ask a random writer to describe a main character in their story--any story--, and then I can easily pop out a character to suit that purpose.

I guess this will sort of be the Superdoll development thread, I'll post updates and teasers when I feel like it. Right now my family just came over for the holidays so I don't have time (nor sleep ) and I don't have any presentable items yet, so I'll really need to squeeze some time in to go beyond the initial sketches and planning stages.

[EwanG]

And I have ethical problems regarding releasing a Paperdoll of a nude child.

Take the Mattel approach - nude, but no nipples or genitals.

As for the others I'll have to blacken or obfuscate the base torsos and have the nude ones be special requests for people I trust can justifiably do a respectable eroge.

Can I be your special friend?

And when you're considering accessories, remember the three essentials I need (in part because of your requests):

Cheerleading Outfit with Pom-Poms
Wheelchair
Eye Glasses

Have fun with the family! We'll be here when you get back.

[DaFool]

Thank you everyone for your comments. Keep them coming, especially requested accessories.

Yes, I repeat, the aim of this is to give writers the unfair advantage.

In essence, this is akin to designing a nice cover to get people to read their book. Don't judge the book by its cover, true, but you won't be interested in the book if the cover didn't catch your eye if no one else recommended the book.

One or two paperdolls can only be used for short stories since the style is not unified. You'll need a whole family of them available. Having many sprites is not enough, just look at the Blade Engine contributions...I mean how many stories can you come up with involving catgirls, priestesses, and grade-schoolers in bloomer outfits - all together in the same story? And even there they don't match.

No, you start with the writer, then you design the character. That way you can get authentic stories.

I really want the best writers to come out and write those long epic visual novels we've always wanted, but who may be intimidated because they're not sure they can get the cooperation of artists to stick to such long projects. And its a waste to have a project fail because the assets haven't been finished. So this project is primarily for those huge undertakings.

[Choark]

Well as an artist:
I have no problem with slowly adding things for the dolls as time goes by. Be it expressions, eye types, hair styles, clothes or whatever. Personally I tend to try and practice drawing each of them indivdually now and then anyway, so allowing them to be used for others is better then just deleting them. I figure if you want the dolls to vary/be-unique as much as possible then other artists now and then pitching in with things to add to the system could add at lot to it. I wouldn't do it all the time but whenever I have spare moments and want to, its good pratice for me if nothing else.

Of course this idea is for later when you have the actual system in place with all your poses and body types sorted out. I have no idea if you can set it like that - as the idea is hard enough to pull off as it is - but you could always collect donations from artists for a period of time and add an updated version of it when you have enough to warrant to do so.

Really, I see one of these things as an open ongoing project. Though I'm not sure if thats how you imagined it. But yeah, ya right: I would rather see more Visual Novels and if this system would allow for that then it'll get my backing.

[EwanG]

Well as an artist:

I like your idea about contributions, but what I think is going to help is that by going through the tool, there is some reason to think you can put together a cast of 10's of characters and have them look enough alike to be believable.

My biggest fear (still is) for my next VN is just the number of characters I'd have to generate.

There's the 40ish female camp manager
Her 19 yo daughter
The protagonist (20)
His handicapped sister (14)

Four other female camp counselors (18, 21, 22, 24)
One other male camp counselor (16)

(and yes, all the ages actually matter)

At least 8 other handicapped teenagers (six girls, two boys), although having a few extras we see but don't hear from would be nice. Per DaFool, one of those girls needs to be a cheerleader.

Then there's the forest spirits (somewhat translucent bunnies, wolves, and a bull moose)

And then let's talk about backgrounds - the campground as a whole (sort of the helicopter coming into MASH shot), the main lodge (under several different weather and day/night conditions), the counselors' cabins (basically the same, but they shouldn't be exact clones), the campers' cabins (again, basically the same, but not exact clones), a campfire setting, a mess hall setting, and at least a few shots in the middle of the woods.

Even an artist, I suspect, would find that list daunting. Now imagine you're a wordsmith and a programmer, but if it weren't for the GIMP, you couldn't draw a straight line...

While I suspect that thinking the tool will cover most/all of what I'm looking for is asking way too much of it, any parts of all that which it can automate increases the likelihood of ever actually completing the project.

OK, I'll get back to doing something more productive now...

[DaFool]

Choark, yep, it would make sense to have the tool / image set very easy for other artists to contribute to / extend / customize.

Which probably means going somewhat towards a more generic look. I had already mentioned trying to go for a simple style.

EwanG, hmmm, I guess we'll need paperdolls of animals too

Looks like I'll need to plot out the different asset groups and how they layer and interlink with each other so they won't fall apart.

[Jake]

EwanG, hmmm, I guess we'll need paperdolls of animals too

I'm getting this image of a surprised-looking rabbit with interchangable fuku, cardigan, hair-ribbons, earrings...

[EwanG]

I'm getting this image of a surprised-looking rabbit with interchangable fuku, cardigan, hair-ribbons, earrings...

Oh... so you've watched Kanon?

Again, if the tool supports it, that would be a wonderful thing. Me, myself, and I, I'll take whatever help I can get even if it's less that a full package.

Personally, given the stuff I have right now, my biggest concerns are the backgrounds (because I don't have anything that will fit), and the kids in the wheelchairs - because all my artwork to this point is of folks standing up. Not to mention not having a good line art wheelchair.

Anything the tool takes over, frees me to concentrate on those things it can't do. I doubt (though I'd love to be surprised on this one) that the first version will do much more than support the general cg character creation. But even THAT will be a big deal. Being able to get your main cast with just a little work will make so many stories more accessible.

Yes, grand epics like I'm planning for my next one will still be a lot of work. But maybe grand epics should be - which I think is part of what dizz was getting at.

Oh well...

[DaFool]

I may be getting too ahead of myself, but a background constructor will be in the works as well. It'll function just like a paperdoll...

"Ah a bush here, a bush there. ...Um no, don't like bushes.."
"How about a tree here? Yep."
"A fence. Or two..."

I can't really describe it in too much detail without being confusing, let's say its a modular architecture where the layout is split up into 12 "environment boxes", each of which can support one cinematic posture, i.e. one character pose. The pose can be foreground / closeup or any one of the background layers.

Yep, that's where most of my efforts related to my project has gone to for the past few months... planning, counting, and recounting different types of locales, camera shots, and cinematic postures. I just realized rather than limiting the possibilities why not expand them to include every possible combination, then just use a subset of those for any given game.

And I owe you guys a design documentation...

[DaFool]

In case you're curious about what the heck my motivation is...

http://www.animenation.net/news/askjohn.php?id=1452

Just change 'Americans' to 'Non-Japanese English speakers' (NJES)

And as we all know, most anime nowadays are adapted from visual novels.

The hardest for NJES is to enter the anime / manga industry outright.
More likely they'd have to do well in their own industries.
Or, they can do OEL manga. But just like with visual novels, the writers need artists, unless they're artist-writers.
But what if they want a more cinematic approach? That's where OELVNs come in.

Thus the end goal of this tool will be to assist wannabe anime screenwriters to have a shot at creating those epic stories they've always wanted. And epic stories often need lots and lots of characters.

The wave of the future I see will be like Echoes of Thunder completed. But see, the writer and artist are the same there. How about those who are not artists? And even they admitted they couldn't do full event CG in the full product but will have to rely on sprites as well.

EDIT:
Hmmm, looks like my work is really cut out for me...
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=38923

...maybe satisfy at least the more decent of those insane requirements.

EDIT2:

Character Recycling is The Future! :

http://www.wretch.cc/blog/dormcat&article_id=5308630

Even the Superdoll won't go that far, though.

[DaFool]

Okay, I need suggestions for the following lists -- especially if they really need to be expanded or contracted. Basically they were pooled together from many resources (mostly from How to Draw Manga books though)

Expression Set

1.) Peaceful. Synonyms: Neutral, Emotionless. Key trait: thin mouth.
2.) Smiling. Synonyms: Happy. Key trait: curved mouth.
3.) Laughter. Synonyms: Pleasant Surprise. Key trait: Slightly open mouth. Optional trait: blush.
4.) Loud Laughter. Key trait: Wide open mouth, closed eyes.
5.) Upset. Synonyms: Pissed, moderately angry. Key trait: Scowling. Optional trait: Luftwaffe insignia on the forehead.
6.) Angry. Synonyms: Very irritated. Key trait: heavy scowl. Optional trait: Luftwaffe insignia on forehead.
7.) Violent anger. Key trait: Outburst.
8.) Sad. Synonyms: Downcast, sullen, sorrowful. Key traits: upside down curved mouth, upturned eyebrows.
9.) Crying. Synonyms: Really sad. Key trait: tears.
10.) Crying Loudly.
11.) Shocked. Synonyms: Surprised. Key trait: open mouth.
12.) Troubled. Synonyms: Worried, serious, skeptical, concerned, sympathetic. Key trait: halfway between Thinking and Determined.
13.) Thinking. Synonyms: Unsure, uncertain. Key trait: eyes focused elsewhere.
14.) Big relief. Synonyms: Cry smilingly / tears of joy. Optional traits: tears and/or blush.
15.) Relief. Key trait: quick big exhale puff.
16.) Fright. Key trait: sweat, uncertainty.
17.) Embarrassed. Synonyms: Awkward. Key traits: Meek smile or stupid grin. Optional traits: blush, unusual shyness, induced sweatdrop in other characters.
18.) Contented. Key trait: Happy with closed eyes.
19.) Apathetic. Synonyms: Irritated, ironic, sarcastic. Key trait: Half-moon eyes.
20.) Stubborn. Key trait: Apathetic eyes or eyes looking away, crossed / folded arms.
21.) Pleading. Key trait: Seriously pleading -- Troubled. Cartoon pleading -- big flashy eyes, over-acting cuteness.
22.) Hurried. Synonyms: Tired, frazzled. Key trait: someplace between Sad and Relief.
23.) Sick. Key trait: extreme form of Hurried.
24.) Mild Shock. Key trait: somewhere in between Pleasant Surprise and Shocked.
25.) Determined. Key trait: Serious but with less uncertainty and more gusto.

I think not all states can be portrayed fully depending on the character, especially the halfway in-between states.

Also, there would be 8 of the following

Character types

1.) Strong willed
2.) Cool
3.) Wild
4.) Perky / cute
5.) Gentle
6.) Weak willed / shy
7.) Selfish
8.) Villanious

Next up...basic action postures.

[EwanG]

Only ones I see missing are:

Drunk (hopefully self explanatory) - Generally looks disheveled but with a happy look on their face, although the eyes don't seem to quite focus.

Beatific - Character is caught up in a spiritual moment be it religious or otherwise. Generally is shown literally glowing.

Be careful with the upside down mouth for sad. I gather I'm going back to the woodshed for one of my characters who's upside down mouth I'm told looks more like a mustache...

[DrakeNavarone]

What?! No Oyashiro-mode?!

Setting the psychotic aside, you should try to include:

1) The evil grin - the malicious sneer that always spells trouble for the protagonist

2) The haughty laugh - when they just have to rub it in your face...

Absolute necessities for the tsundere archetype, which seems to be all the rage these days...

[DaFool]

Excellent.

26.) Drunk. Key traits: disheveled but happy, eyes elsewhere, blush.
27.) Beatific. Synonyms: Glowing, messianic. . Key traits: Just add halo and you're done.
28.) Grin. Key traits: Very prominent teeth. Optional traits: High eyebrows, closed eyes. Also comes in Stupid or Evil variants.
29.) Oyashiro-mode. Synonyms: Higurashi-mode, Lucy-mode, Boxcutter mode. Key traits: Totally blank pupilless eyes, unfocused / off into space, wicked facial aura.
30.) Demonic-mode. Key trait: Anime standard before Oyashiro mode was invented. Black out the whole face, especially upper face including eyes. Optional traits: replace eyes with pinpoint red lasers.
31.) WTF happened-mode. Key traits: Whole face becomes simplified childish drawing -- paper-white face, nothing but 2 round circles for eyes, and slit for mouth. Also known as good chibi replacement.
32.) Super-embarrassed. Key traits: The whole face becomes one big blush.

As for specifically evil grin and haughty laughter, they can go specifically with Villain Character + Grin Expression and Selfish Character + Laughter Expression. I'll try to make all expressions available to a single neutral character but I think it'll be more likely the case that only a subset of expressions will be available depending on character type (Like for example, a character with thin icy eyes will be hard to create an Embarrassed or Moe pose for.)

And definitely, for Character type
9.) Tsundere

How could I forget? Virtually all the characters I need to design for the stories, by nature of the plot, are basically tsundere.

As for chibi, nah, since my style is more cross-over with western/realistic, this won't work.

Thanks! Keep em coming. It's better to complete the set now rather than tack on an expression later on.

EDIT:
33.) Winking
34.) Pouting
35.) Lusting

[DaFool]

Ha, I wasn't kidding when I meant lack of sleep...

and I couldn't believe I actually bought my dad a car.

Anyways, check this out:

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.ph ... tcount=754

- The game's scenario is not all that long.
- In exchange for a large number of artworks, they cut the scenario volume down. The idea is to aim for a movie-like experience.
- ef's total CG number is about 400~500.
- The length of the scenario shouldn't determine a game's quality, it's all about how much the completed product entertains you. A game that can be completed within 16~18 hours is also far friendlier for the working-class people.

If you haven't realized by now--and I like to repeat things--the aim for this project is to enable doujin creators (not just Western but heck maybe even Japanese amateurs) to create cinema-like experience in their works as well, by providing the means of 400-500+ ready-made postures.

And all without a budget. Here's to self-motivation ^_^.