People refusing to take advice (was: I need help!)

[dramspringfeald]

*A comment on some of the people here.

"I need help making my game but I refuse to take any of the help or advice you give me, What should I do?"

[chocojax]

There's no need to be irritated if someone doesn't take your advice. Sometimes, your advice doesn't suit what they're looking for, or it isn't what they're looking for at all. It's their choice to use what's been given to them. ):

[dramspringfeald]

That's not the issue. I've read a number of posts on here with 10 or 15 people replying basically the same thing and said "help requester" ignores them and keeps asking the same thing.

My favorite reply from them is "I want it to be more professional looking" or "I don't want to take the time to learn it." and well... I just don't know how to deal with these people. :/

[Anna]

If it annoys you, you should just ignore them. Not because you're in the wrong or because telling them what you think is bad, but because it's pointless. No matter what you do or say, there will always be someone doing this.

[fleet]

If it's the same people, put them on your 'foe' list. Foes are users which will be ignored by default. Posts by these users will not be fully visible.

[erinism]

Sometimes people are looking for a magic fix or an easy answer so they wont listen unless they're given one or the other.

Then again, sometimes the problem may not be worth the effort to fix that is being suggested. But I understand how frustrating it is when you go out of your way to give someone advice and they ignore it. I hear that.

[TrickWithAKnife]

Sometimes your answer is not related to the question.

And if you have an issue, PM instead of creating a flame topic.

[Dim Sum]

That's not the issue. I've read a number of posts on here with 10 or 15 people replying basically the same thing and said "help requester" ignores them and keeps asking the same thing.

My favorite reply from them is "I want it to be more professional looking" or "I don't want to take the time to learn it." and well... I just don't know how to deal with these people. :/

Easiest quick fix is to see it through their eyes. Works even on trolls cause you might get wrong empathic connection but at least you stop replying or force their hand.

2nd easiest quick fix is to see as if their post is yours.

Hard but take this thread. You get lots of replies saying same thing and yet you feel it is "not the issue". Now you get potential comparative legit frustration.

3rd easiest quick fix is "walk through".

Many advisers talk like bad/mediocre customer service but don't realize them.

Vice versa for newbies. Not every new user from forums are veteran readers of other forums.

Sometimes newbies don't realize writing subsection does not mean writer help but fellow amateurs conversing together. Sometimes you hit gold mine. Other times you hit amateur that thinks they are saying something profound cause they repeat sentences they've heard and think it's profound when it's redundant especially wielded willy nilly.

Sometimes newbies don't realize artist subsection does not mean artist help but digital tool discussion and talks of style are "unproductive" and "downers".

Sometimes newbies don't realize music/movies subsection don't talk about theory or philosophy or style but just how to insert code or how to keep music "good" rather than please say... "audiophile" despite free amateur work.

Sometimes opposite too but problem more on newbie side cause veterans being veterans of a forum won't change their style for newbie.

Such cases best general case scenario is to ask yourself if you are willing and capable of establishing rapport with poster you want to help.

See, despite new and outsider to forum, I think this less mentioned reality of all forums: Wanting to help does not mean wanting to establish rapport with poster.

Newbies have a hard time preparing for this. Vets/advisors have a hard time compromising for this. Rapport ends up becoming lottery ticket of whether person wants to communicate rather than post back.

Also rapport difficult depending on situations. Sometimes posters offer pm for example and I want to share but I don't know how to approach them and can't have that lingering fear especially when amateur attempt on RenPy is also producing fear so I don't step towards that boundary (at least while WIP).

Other times it opposite: I make tll;dr and people say it's confusing and it just hurts and maybe talented people can handle that "hurt" while making games but some newbies can't (like me) so we don't establish connections. We request what vets think are magic quick fixes.

All these lead to false impression of "I need help making my game but I refuse to take any of the help or advice you give me, What should I do?" on both sides...but it is generic truth of all forums except for rarer forums. I only 3rd route IF you really really want to help poster. Otherwise, let sleeping dogs lie and wait for the cult of personality poster to establish rapport with those guys. Chances are they don't feel they need you and deep down you don't really want to help them, you just want to post reply that can be interpreted as helpful.

Hope this helps. Sorry if I offended anyone. No foul intention intended. Just writing what hasn't been written yet.

[Auro-Cyanide]

Some people are in denial of reality and human nature and are quite literally looking for something that doesn't exist. And most of the time that is only solved through experience. There is a whole bunch of advice like start with a small game and avoid feature creep that are generally ignored by the same people because they haven't quite grounded their expectations in reality just yet. But it eventually will happen. If there is one thing that likes to slap you in the face and remind you are human, it's life. And depending on the individual, they will either end up angry and bitter about the experience, or they will dust themselves off and get back to work.

If they don't listen the first time, they probably are never going to listen until they go through it themselves. That said, I don't think it's necessarily wrong to talk about it on a forum like this since it's probably one of the biggest hurdles with game making (recruiting and teamwork). Ignoring it will probably just mean people who would actually listen being left in the dark about what is going on.

Tl:dr: It's people being people.

[TrickWithAKnife]

Isn't calling people with questions "noobs" and "trolls" counter-productive? Are you trying to make people not want to ask questions?

Personally I love all the questions. I've learnt more from reading other people's questions than from any guides.

Now, the OP is being a bit misleading. There are 2 topics he replied to recently, one of which was mine.
In my topic, I asked for advice regarding backgrounds of locations. His advice was to draw stick figures and take photos of the clothes in my wardrobe. I do not believe this has anything to do with backgrounds, so of course I'm not going to follow his advice.

I really don't appreciate this topic. The only thing that can come from this is turning forum members against each other.

[Sapphi]

(I'm going to ignore the specific situations surrounding the creation of this topic and just give a straight answer about a general phenomenon.)

My favorite reply from them is "I want it to be more professional looking" or "I don't want to take the time to learn it." and well... I just don't know how to deal with these people. :/

Yeah, that is an awful attitude. People who refuse to help themselves just need to be left alone for awhile until they get motivated enough to learn independently. A lot of times I think it's not that people are allergic to hard work, it's that they truly don't understand how to do it because they've always had everything handed to them on a plate. The solution... stop bringing plates, until they get hungry enough to get up and do something about it on their own, I guess.

Fortunately, even if the help requester doesn't benefit from your advice, a lurker may well be.
I'm not what you could call a lurker, but I've gone back and read a great deal of old posts/discussion both here and elsewhere in the OELVN scene and it's really taught me a lot. So who knows, maybe two or three years from now some newbie will be browsing the forum, find your old advice, and take something good away from it.

[TrickWithAKnife]

A lot of times I think it's not that people are allergic to hard work, it's that they truly don't understand how to do it because they've always had everything handed to them on a plate. The solution... stop bringing plates, until they get hungry enough to get up and do something about it on their own, I guess.

If people need help, don't help them and they will figure it out themselves?

[Auro-Cyanide]

A lot of times I think it's not that people are allergic to hard work, it's that they truly don't understand how to do it because they've always had everything handed to them on a plate. The solution... stop bringing plates, until they get hungry enough to get up and do something about it on their own, I guess.

If people need help, don't help them and they will figure it out themselves?

I think she meant more that people should understand the task before asking for help, or at least be open to listening to the people who do it. That's why it can be a really good idea to try a really mini project all by yourself (or in pair) so you can touch on and learn all the different aspect. Sometimes people ask too much because they just haven't had the experience yet, and that can turn away a lot of potential partners. It's like when kids take their parent's money for granted because they haven't found out the work that is required to earn it.

[Dim Sum]

Isn't calling people with questions "noobs" and "trolls" counter-productive? Are you trying to make people not want to ask questions?

Not sure if post was a reply to mine so replying...but no, don't think so.

Seen enough to be sure. Firmly for decorum but troublesome when suddenly common net lingo is seen as counter productive. Ends up leading to over-sensitive replies where people talk about don't call them that/don't call them this.

Example:

No idea of the specifics of the thread, did not bring up specific examples, all hypothetical examples and never seen it threaten to evolve into forum war until people start over-empathizing and unconsciously become armchair prejudicial psychologists. No specific poster in mind.

Like experience talk. It's common pattern that rises up in many forums but it's half-truth. Not whole lie...but half-truth. Almost often in general it is.

...but helper/mediator/posters can't destroy balance towards newb or troll or vet. Ends up being dangerous and might turn forum members on each other.

Yet without balance, it like urban legend. No "new" consciousness allowed into groupthink without people in groupthink realizing experience not always solve anything.

Don't want to go into specifics. Just highlighting generality. Even things like RenPy vs. other VN game engine.

IF without RenPy, people would just think you need experience on other VN game engine.

With RenPy, suddenly it's about having experience with RenPy.

With RenPy topics, suddenly it's about lurker "winning lottery" and reading old threads.

Very basic problem/very common early thought process to problem/very basic forum talking point evolution/very common vet thinking across multiple forum.

Not an issue at all if discussed generally and supplanted w/ hypotheticals. Highly volatile if certain things "aren't allowed as possibilities" by veteran group as discussion point or if discussion point must "jump to conclusion" as to having ulterior motives...but common general forum issue all around.

Not really big enough deal to turn posters against each other if core community is tight to begin with. Simply put, non-factor unless two people decide to tango and make it a factor...which only happens in community with secret ulterior chemistry to begin with.

[LateWhiteRabbit]

A lot of times I think it's not that people are allergic to hard work, it's that they truly don't understand how to do it because they've always had everything handed to them on a plate. The solution... stop bringing plates, until they get hungry enough to get up and do something about it on their own, I guess.

If people need help, don't help them and they will figure it out themselves?

There are some people who use help as a form of procrastination. They watch endless tutorials, ask for endless advice, ask for help at every turn, and get very little actual work done. They fear trying anything until they are perfect, or have a perfect recipe or formula for success. They are questing after a mythical grail full of easy that doesn't exist. For those people, yes, cutting them off and forcing them to go out and TRY is the best possible solution.

As to what the original point of the topic, yes, I have seen this in quite a few threads where people ask for help in a certain area or subject, and then get three pages of other members all telling them the same thing, and peppered with their own replies which are some variation on an excuse or denial of the (repeatedly) offered solution. Either the offered solution is still not the 'easy button' the poster was looking for (i.e. it will still take a lot of work on their part), or it doesn't conform to the answer they already had in mind and wanted to receive when they posted the question.

It's enough to make you wonder if the poster was looking for advice or help at all, or just confirmation for their bias.

And in the case of lots of varied advice some people don't know how to keep ideas rolling along in their thread, and instead inadvertently stop the whole process by abruptly shooting down each idea. I was taught when brainstorming to never respond negatively or shoot down an idea, because it destroys the flow and hampers further ideas and input. Instead, you just say something like, "That sounds okay, but what about - a) something more detailed? b) a simpler solution? c) a method with more polish?" That deflects the offered idea without stopping the varied trails of thought.

Responding curtly and negatively - flat out calling ideas bad or worthless - makes anyone else shy about offering solutions and ideas. I.e. "Geez! He was harsh with that guy's suggestion! I thought about offering my idea, but I don't want him to imply I'm stupid like he did to that last poster. Best to just silently move along."

Go check out some forums like the Polycount boards, where industry professionals in the AAA 3D fields hang out and look at how the pros deftly handle poor or unwanted advice by saying things like - "Not a bad idea, but I want to go a different direction with this piece. Thanks for the suggestion, though." You can also see all the pros jump ship on amateurs who rudely go, "No. I'm not going to do that."