Visual Novel Writing Contest (planning thread)

[Carassaurat]

This definitely sounds interesting, although I am almost completely sure that I couldn't actually write it - certainly not without going into worst VN/KN melodrama and bad-for-the-sake-of-it territory, but it's a fine line sometimes. Certainly worth trying, maybe not writing my own story will allow me to write down imperfect stuff more easily, like with the bad VN. So you can count me in as someone who will try, but would be unlikely to finish.

It's a tad disappointing about the art, because I like to make art styles, but I see how that's a most fair and productive restriction .

About the judging only for people partaking in the discussion, wouldn't that make it obvious who made what? Unless I'd also post a critical analysis of my own work as if from someone else's perspective (and this would be interesting, now that I think of it), one entry would stand out as being undiscussed, and that one would be mine.

[OokamiKasumi]

...if you really want to decide something like "good writing" through a voting process, then I would recommend a panel of judges rather than a public vote.

I also feel that a panel of unnamed judges would be far more fair, with Discussion open to the public.

[PyTom]

Hmm. Would 'no sound' be too limiting to people? I don't want to face a dozen games all using the same tiny set of sound resources, and it'll keep the filesize smaller if there are no giant music files kicking around.

Regardless of music, you might want to set a size limit on each submission. For example, submissions must be 1 (or 1.5, or 2) megabytes in size. That's enough for a few images.

Is ATL allowed? Transitions, like Dissolve or ImageDissolve? Is this a writing, or writing+scripting contest? It probably makes sense to agree in advance what sort of engine features are in play.

For such small games, it probably makes sense to include them inside a single download. Otherwise, the user would be forced to download the engine a dozen times. If you'd like, I can extract the guts of the Ren'Py launcher so they can be used in this project.

[OokamiKasumi]

Hmm. Would 'no sound' be too limiting to people? I don't want to face a dozen games all using the same tiny set of sound resources, and it'll keep the file size smaller if there are no giant music files kicking around.

How about One ambient Soundtrack for the whole game? A completely soundless game gives me the willies.

For backgrounds, yeah, best to stick with OELVN wiki sources and/or any art that is specifically donated to the contest to ensure everyone has access to the same. Might even need to get more specific than that, like a no-editing (except for crop/resize) rule. Use it as you find it, don't get distracted by art... you could always make a prettier re-release after the contest if you wanted.

I'd be happy to donate backgrounds?

sample:

Just tell me what size you want them, and what type.

Rooms?
-- house
-- palace
-- castle
-- shop

Streets?
-- urban
-- rural

Outdoors?
-- forest
-- meadow

2 or 3 of each?

I have a massive image library to work from and I can have them all done in two hours or less.

[PrettySammy09]

Hey! I think this is an interesting idea, but I'm a little wary of the whole mission of the thing. It seems to me like this isn't going to be a contest of "the best writing" but instead "the best idea", or even "which idea people like better". I mean, two different writers with technically the same skill could write completely different stories and comparing the two would be like comparing apples and oranges. Some people will like one more than the other just cause...well, just cause they do.

I mean, if we're going to discuss who's a better artist (and I believe writing is an art), how would you even begin to compare Renoir to Picasso? Even if you gave them the same materials to work with, they'd come up with completely different paintings and it would be hard to argue that either was "better" than the other.

I think this is a really cool idea, though! It sounds like an awesome way to see how creative people can be. And I'd definitely be interested in participating. I guess I just get a little wary whenever people are like "let's compare Product A to Product 2 and that'll show us what a good Product is."

[Blane Doyle]

Well, part of writing comes with the idea itself. Some people are amazing writers... but their concepts are dreadful and uninspired (see the YA Paranormal Romance section at Barnes and Noble). Some people have amazing ideas and are highly original... but they can't write for toffy and everything is filled with inconsistencies, grammatical errors, and just plain bad writing (ex. purple prose) in general.

You can have two games with the exact same idea, but two writers could tackle it very differently, or two people who have the exact same writing style and ability that come up with completely different concepts. I find it better not to question which is "better" overall, but which works with their materials better to build something hopefully unique.

I consider writing an art as well, and I think everything works in tandem. Grammar, pacing, concepts, going outside of the box, foreshadowing, to me everything works together and needs to work well together. Some ideas, if given the proper push, are just better than others sometimes. Other times it doesn't matter what the idea itself is or how it is executed, but how the writer works their word-craft as a whole.

If you have an amazing concept but a crap writer, you could be screwed. If you have a boring concept but a great writer, you could be passable. It depends on how everything is executed together, the writer, just multiple important gears in the writing clock, as it were.

... and this is horribly ranty and off topic, I apologize.

[papillon]

A panel of judges goes against my mission. Even if it were someone else's contest and not mine, I would have an objection to that, which I really don't want to get into here in detail.

Art competitions can never find "the best" because there's no such thing. There is no objective best writing or best idea - even if we all agreed that Game A was far and away the best, it might be Game B that turned out to have cultural significance over time. We can only judge what we like - it's always a popularity contest. But if the discussion is open then you can at least see why the winner won for that particular audience - and it should be clear that it is, indeed, for that particular audience. With different voters the result would likely be different.

About the judging only for people partaking in the discussion, wouldn't that make it obvious who made what? Unless I'd also post a critical analysis of my own work as if from someone else's perspective (and this would be interesting, now that I think of it), one entry would stand out as being undiscussed, and that one would be mine.

Fair point! I'm not quite sure what to do about that one. If the discussion rule requires only that you critiqued *something* rather than posting a full critique of all the entries, maybe?

I have seen other competitions where people talk about the works during the judging period while managing to avoid giving away what if anything they were involved in, so I don't think it's impossible.

Is ATL allowed? Transitions, like Dissolve or ImageDissolve? Is this a writing, or writing+scripting contest? It probably makes sense to agree in advance what sort of engine features are in play.

Also a good point!

I think scripting needs to be included in the list of acceptable attributes, because it is an important part of VN design and helps to set it apart from writing a straight story. However, ImageDissolve would be out because of the no-custom-art rule.

I don't want to be too specific on what can and can't be done with code, because being inventive with the medium should be worth brownie points. Are there obvious sticking points that people can see that would be questionable?

how are we going to handle ESL writers? Are they allowed to have their work checked by a proofreader for grammatical inconsistencies?

My first reaction was to suggest that collaboration was okay as long as the group dealt with splitting any prizes themselves, so someone could have a partner to help them with their text if they wanted.


For background donation - ifwhen this goes ahead the prompt will be public so it'll be more clear what makes sense to have then.

Another question is how long people should have to create their works after the contest officially begins. Since you're not having to come up with art and music, is a full month necessary?

[Victoria Jennings]

Another question is how long people should have to create their works after the contest officially begins. Since you're not having to come up with art and music, is a full month necessary?

So it'd sort of be like NaNoReNo, except you're only focusing on writing and coding? Makes it a lot closer to the original NaNoWriMo. U:

[Blane Doyle]

I think a month would be a good length, if a lot easier than either NaNo given that time frame and the length you want us to have. I think a month is a good idea, but if you want to challenge us I would vote for 2-3 weeks instead. That gives us time to plan, write, edit, build, and test the games before submitting them.

[OokamiKasumi]

For background donation - if/when this goes ahead the prompt will be public so it'll be more clear what makes sense to have then.

Gotcha.

Another question is how long people should have to create their works after the contest officially begins. Since you're not having to come up with art and music, is a full month necessary?

YES. It takes the average amateur writer 30 days to write a 5000 word story. And that's just the story. Add to that; multiple paths, ATL coding queries in the 'Renpy questions' section of the forum, full time jobs and/or full-time school, and those 30 days will get eaten up fast. Any time limit less than 30 days will only have the practiced writer's and game-makers finishing on time.

[Sharm]

At least a full month is necessary, unless you want to be seeing everyone's first drafts. I'm a discovery writer so my first drafts are garbage.

[Arowana]

Sounds like a cool idea!

Though if the point is to make an interesting, creative game using a limited pool of resources, that's one thing. But if the intention is to generate discussion about what makes effective writing, would it be easier to just have people submit a script? I'd think that if the point is to judge writing in and of itself, everything else (art, music, coding, animations, etc.) would be extraneous to this goal. I guess you could argue that what sets VN writing apart from novel writing is that you can rely on art, sound, and animations to demonstrate a lot of things for you. But if that's the case, then I think some of the more severe limitations on these non-writing resources (eliminating all sound, for instance) could be counterproductive, in that they'd fail to capture the conditions under which VN writing usually operates.

Also, if people are worried on whether to judge submissions based on ideas vs execution, etc., maybe hashing out a score sheet with different categories for originality, mechanics, and so forth would be useful?

[PrettySammy09]

I think a month is a reasonable amount of time. It's a pressing enough deadline to make it seem like a contest without being so ridiculously short that people are staying up nights to finish.

[MysteriousArtistX]

I think this is an awesome idea sign me up

A month is a good amount of time, it definitely gives people a time to pace and manage when they can work on their project.

[DeeKay]

Sounds like a cool idea!

Though if the point is to make an interesting, creative game using a limited pool of resources, that's one thing. But if the intention is to generate discussion about what makes effective writing, would it be easier to just have people submit a script? I'd think that if the point is to judge writing in and of itself, everything else (art, music, coding, animations, etc.) would be extraneous to this goal. I guess you could argue that what sets VN writing apart from novel writing is that you can rely on art, sound, and animations to demonstrate a lot of things for you. But if that's the case, then I think some of the more severe limitations on these non-writing resources (eliminating all sound, for instance) could be counterproductive, in that they'd fail to capture the conditions under which VN writing usually operates.

Also, if people are worried on whether to judge submissions based on ideas vs execution, etc., maybe hashing out a score sheet with different categories for originality, mechanics, and so forth would be useful?

That's a very valid point if we're to consider this as a pure writing discussion, it might be more manageable that way.
Then would this mean the assets would be provided as reference only ?