Easy way to put a rating on a VN?

[wakagana]

So...I'm a little curious.

I've seen a few VN's here on the forum that are a little...overly suggestive in some regards towards sex appeal (Mostly character art), but they kind of skim under the radar of actually being adult-content.

So I'm curious if there is something to look at that can give me a good idea as to how you can rate something. I'm still sort've on edge about whether or not I want to include erotic scenes in my own VN, which would only be there to develop plot and give the characters special bonds when they have said experiences. ( I disapprove of smutty writing unless it has at least some form of story in VN's and books, If you want to get off to sex related stuff why not just go watch porn or look at hentai? -.o )

So, I'm curious as to how far you can really push at the envelope before it becomes considered 'adult' content. whether it be no visuals, or very vague writing?

Also, I apologize if someone has already asked this question. (I'm sure they're has been.)

I'd really appreciate a response/opinions/ or a link to a thread that's already discussed this.

Thanks! - Wakagana

[LateWhiteRabbit]

So, I'm curious as to how far you can really push at the envelope before it becomes considered 'adult' content. whether it be no visuals, or very vague writing?

It's difficult to say for sure.

If by "adult content" you mean, how far can you push the sex or nudity before it becomes porn, it really is a very blurry line. Really the only way to KNOW you've crossed it is if you show actual penetration occurring - either genitals to genitals or genitals to mouth. Other than THAT . . . well, you can go pretty far. If you were to lay it out on a spectrum from SAFELY MATURE to DANGEROUSLY CLOSE TO PORN, it might look something like this:

SAFELY MATURE: Nudity shown in appropriate context - i.e. shower, bathtub, or locker room scenes, someone changing, etc. It's almost always fanservice-y but rarely considered porn. Backsides of both genders are tolerated well, and seeing topless men and women at this level is common.

GETTING MORE DANGEROUS: Nudity shown in a sexual manner - i.e. two people making out, a couple in bed, a strip tease, etc. Full frontal may be seen at this level. Even male full frontals are becoming more common in TV and movies. HOWEVER, to remain at this level, the male always has to be flacid. Erect penises jump you straight to porn territory. HBO in particular seems to have made a bet with someone about how many penises they can slip into a show recently. But all are unambiguously flacid.

DANGEROUSLY CLOSE TO PORN: Full contact nudity in a sexual manner. Basically you ARE watching porn - you just can't see the bits connecting. This includes simulated oral sex where the genitals are hidden by a head or hand, etc.

Mainly though, the deciding factor is how much the sex or nudity serves the story, or how much the story serves the sex and nudity. Some stories have a lot of visceral impact, drama, or authenticity imparted by nudity. Others it exists merely as a happenstance to arouse the reader or viewer. Does the sex and nudity enhance or hurt your story?

Kana - Little Sister is a visual novel that makes good use of these without ever approaching porn territory. When the main character looks down his little sister's shirt (who is sick and dying) and is ashamed of himself for feeling aroused, it has more impact because the player can see what he sees and is also possibly aroused - and conflicted by it. It wouldn't have had the same impact if we hadn't seen the nudity ourselves as the player - it would have been much more easy to condemn the main character for feeling lustful. Instead, by showing us the nudity too, we are complicit in his sin.

The same game has a scene where the main character and another girl are having explicit and very graphic sex - and his little sister walks in on them and is shocked, appalled, and upset. The moment of revelation has impact because it manipulates the player's emotions to go from arousal to disgusted or surprised in zero seconds flat. The change in tone would have felt forced if we hadn't been so completely immersed in one before the other.

As for ratings, I believe in descriptors more than ratings. Ratings can be arbitrary - my version of "mature" might be very different from yours. Or I may consider non-sexual nudity a non-issue, when it immediately puts something into a "mature" rating for yourself. For that reason, listing the content of the game is far better for consumers. Now, I can say my game has "Partial Nudity" and "Sexual Themes", even though I may be rating it "Teen". You can then say to yourself that you don't find nudity appropriate or wanted and avoid my game, even if you normally are fine with playing "Teen" rated games.

[wakagana]

So, I'm curious as to how far you can really push at the envelope before it becomes considered 'adult' content. whether it be no visuals, or very vague writing?

Mainly though, the deciding factor is how much the sex or nudity serves the story, or how much the story serves the sex and nudity. Some stories have a lot of visceral impact, drama, or authenticity imparted by nudity. Others it exists merely as a happenstance to arouse the reader or viewer. Does the sex and nudity enhance or hurt your story?

Thank you for the reply. I have a fairly good idea of the visual aspect of what is 'porn' (Your post certainly helped with getting me to acknowledge the 'oks' of nudity.) but I'm still a bit in the dark with writing.

The writing would be trying its best to showcase the passion, or small emotions that characters may show while having sex, or foreplay, or anything regarding what people do together behind closed doors. (Or in public...if you like going to jail.)

But that's aside the point, what I'm trying to figure out is how 'descriptive' you can get before it becomes a little over the top.

Cause...at the time being its like this...


-safe...but really boring-

"Blah blah blah does blah blah blah, they enter bed room blah blah blah...they have sex. blah blah blah." or some other way of just simply laying down the fact the two characters had sex.

It's a really simple and effective way if you're able to do it without making the reader go like. "Oh..okay." But it's kind of like half-assing it in my opinion >_>

-Really vague...-

Being really vague with the writing and letting the reader imagine what they want to think based on the words you use...

-Descriptive-

Showcasing important emotions and actions that should highlight the passion and 'love' the two characters hold for one another. ie...thrusting, grabbing, moaning names, inner-thoughts while doing it...

that kinda stuff.

So...If you have any idea as to how ~descriptive~ you can get with writing, I'd really appreciate it.

[LateWhiteRabbit]

But that's aside the point, what I'm trying to figure out is how 'descriptive' you can get before it becomes a little over the top.

Describe emotions, not actions. That's the key to writing a good sex scene. We all know how the physical aspect works. That's repetitive, boring, dull. No one likes reading about thrusts, and grabs, and moans. If the lovers aren't doing anything UNIQUE or performing actions necessary to point out, we assume they are doing all the above. What we DON'T know is how they feel about it. Is she thinking of him or visualizing Don Juan from down the street? Is he feeling powerful and in control or is he oscillating between jazzed and happy and terrified of screwing up? If terrified, why? Because he loves her and wants to do well and make it good for her, or because he's afraid of not being manly enough? Is there are connection they're feeling or are they in a lust-filled haze?

The climax has occurred - are they feeling happy and fulfilled, like a real connection has been established, or are they empty and worried about how little they romantically care for the other person? All these things are interesting, dramatic, and story-driven, plus they reveal character insights. The thrusting, moaning, and poking just means they were born human with the standard equipment and urges.

Why have these two engaged in sex with each other? A deep and loving connection they want to consummate? A lusty fling to satisfy physical urges? A lonely hook-up in stressful times to feel like they aren't alone in the world? Good sex is a story.

[wakagana]

Is she thinking of him or visualizing Don Juan from down the street?

Wahaha. Oh god, that made me chuckle. Thank you for the input, I'll be sure to ask my self some of the questions you suggested if I do choose to write sex-based scenes.

[Auro-Cyanide]

Why do you want to put sex in the story?

I really have no problem with sex in stories, I have issue with how it is often dealt with. Too often it just breaks me from the immersion because it unnecessary, immature, out of blue, many reasons. Good sex scenes aren't sex scenes, they are a seamless part of the story. As soon as I actually start thinking about it as a separate element, I'm out of the story (this is under the condition that the story isn't about sex).

There are two things to point out.

One is from the deep wisdom of Scrubs, and that is: "The dirty little secret about sex is that it isn't dirty". We all get erotica, and it's cool that it exists, but that is only a facet of it. To write good sex scenes in a story that isn't just there for smut material requires a deep understanding of the characters and a deep understanding of humans. It should serve to say something about them. The majority of humans have sex in their lives so it in and of itself is not special. Anyone pretty much can do it. What makes it special is the people.

The other is that people believe that it's pretty much the go to of showing a deep relationship, that's it's a natural conclusion. Really? So, people can't be happy, can't show love, if they don't have sex? There are sooooooooo many ways that humans can show affection to one another without jumping in bed. Some of those simple moments can be amazingly powerful, even more powerful, than any sexy times. Sex is often just used as a cheap form of showing this connection. You should think carefully about what it is exactly they want to show and how you can show it. Is there a more powerful way to show what you want to show in relation to the story? Sometimes an implied sex scene can be much more powerful because it can give the audience freedom, or it might remove the barrier of the physical to focus on the set up of the emotional. It's not about censoring yourself, it can purely be about what is the most important thing to tell.

There isn't anything inherently wrong with titillation, just don't think people won't see you doing it and don't forget how it could impact the story.

[papillon]

Too often it just breaks me from the immersion because it unnecessary, immature, out of blue, many reasons.

Just quoting this because my I'm-too-busy-to-take-much-time playthrough of Kara no Shojo just hit its first sex scene and WHOA WHAT THE ? WAS THAT?? Out of the blue, in a very awkward situation, not by player choice, jammed in between meaningful conversations that did not relate to it, not likely to be any consequence at all later that it seemed, and in general a SKIP THIS option would have gone nicely

[Ziassan]

While it's true that it's badly handled in a lot of VN, that doesn't mean wakagana have to avoid it.
I'd say, avoiding that kind of scene while it would be more natural to have them, is nearly as bad as putting them while it was not required (like a lot of eroge do because the market they target want these scenes). Unless it's related to the public you're targetting, removing something that would have been there otherwise, just because it's erotic, isn't a good thing.


Two opposites examples regarding that:

* Utawarerumono : The worst I ever seen about sex scenes - they aren't "bad" by themself, but come without any relation to the scenario, have not effects, and the character continue to act like nothing happened, nobody even say or think anything related after. And each female character get a scene even if the relation with the protaganist is totally not making that logic.

* ef ~ a fairy tale of the two : The few scenes here come naturally and (depending on who though) realistically. It's often useful to the story and character developpement, and sometimes it's somewhat sad because of reasons I'll not quote here. Character personnality have strong impact on how it happens also, and skipping these scenes damage the story.

[Hijiri]

Too often it just breaks me from the immersion because it unnecessary, immature, out of blue, many reasons.

Just quoting this because my I'm-too-busy-to-take-much-time playthrough of Kara no Shojo just hit its first sex scene and WHOA WHAT THE ? WAS THAT?? Out of the blue, in a very awkward situation, not by player choice, jammed in between meaningful conversations that did not relate to it, not likely to be any consequence at all later that it seemed, and in general a SKIP THIS option would have gone nicely

Most erouge tends to force the scenes for some reason. And, sadly, a "Skip H-Scene" option tends to be rare. (The most recent one I read that had an option like that, fortissimo EXS//Akkord: nachsten Phase, did have that option, but only because the original version, EXA//Akkord: Bsusvier, was 15+ and they didn't want to alienate the people who read it for the plot)

[LateWhiteRabbit]

Too often it just breaks me from the immersion because it unnecessary, immature, out of blue, many reasons.

Just quoting this because my I'm-too-busy-to-take-much-time playthrough of Kara no Shojo just hit its first sex scene and WHOA WHAT THE ? WAS THAT?? Out of the blue, in a very awkward situation, not by player choice, jammed in between meaningful conversations that did not relate to it, not likely to be any consequence at all later that it seemed, and in general a SKIP THIS option would have gone nicely

I've got to agree with the sex scenes being optional or a choice. I hate nothing more than the main character up and sleeping with a character without me getting to choose yay or nay, just because I was being nice and friendly with that NPC. I have a weird meta-game I play sometimes with VNs where I try NOT to sleep with anyone and see if I can pull it off. It's always the better games that let me succeed in this. The bad ones, the one made just for porn and titillation, don't give me a choice. I'll have slept with half the cast before the 3rd act even rolls around.

Auro-Cyanide said what I was trying to say in my last post, but better.

[papillon]

The bad ones, the one made just for porn and titillation, don't give me a choice. I'll have slept with half the cast before the 3rd act even rolls around.

(off topic)
This certainly isn't a game made just for porn and titillation, but it did feel a bit like "Any player who bought this hoping for tits might be bored by now! Here, have random sex. Now back to the plot." (... What sort of crazy person buys THIS game hoping for lots of sex?)

That or it was meant to be off-putting and weird which isn't entirely unlikely. The protagonist didn't seem all that happy about it.

[wakagana]

In regards to my own project. You cant sleep around or have sex with anyone more then the character route you end up on. Its fairly kinetic once you actually get into a relationship with one of the characters.

and I can understand how some may say that sex is completely irrelevant to a story or doesn't add anything to character's growth in personality. This may be true to some extents...but

From the view of what the ages of the characters are in the story can really vary how impacting sex can be. For example....

Is a guy who's had sex a decent amount of times going to have the same emotional impact from having sex as someone who's never had it before?
The same goes for the differences between someone being unfortunate enough to getting raped and someone who is seeking sex for nothing more then the pleasure.
The emotions would be different and of course would vary between people. And so I cant imagine that sex for the first time between characters who are completely new to sex would have little to no impact on the characters them selves as long as they had true deep hearted emotions for one another.

And of course, you can showcase growth and love without sex easily.

But from my perspective. (A 17 year old who's never had sex - who had the opportunity to have sex but turned it down due to not feeling it was that time in the relationship.) I'm convinced that having sex for the first time, if not even the first time with said person you care deeply about would have numerous emotional and mental impacts. whether it be Regret, Worry, Happiness, Confusion, feeling awkward or out of place?

I cant imagine that those feelings can just be skipped over. But I do understand the concept of the characters just never getting at the idea of sex based on their personalities, that's completely reasonable, a good example is myself in real life. Overall I just feel it'd be a little strange to just skip such an important part of someones life or story. Although, I may be totally wrong due to the fact I've never experienced it. so how should I know? I'm just assuming. -shrug-

[papillon]

It's often better to skip the sex if you are young and inexperienced because your viewpoint on it then only comes from other people writing about it. This can lead you to over-idealise the event, or misunderstand how a lot of things work. (I've read fanfic by people who've clearly never seen a member of the opposite sex naked, much less have any clue what happens next.)

Sex for the first time can have a huge range of different impacts on different people, including "Wait, was that it? Wasn't there supposed to be more to it?"

But you don't have to actually show the sex in order to show the impact on the relationship. There are stories where you can figure out that couples have just had sex for the first time because of the way they blush and burst out laughing after someone asks a seemingly innocuous question.

For that matter, many of the results will not depend on the acts that are traditionally considered to be sex. How you got there (the undressing bits - or lack thereof!) and what you do immediately afterwards are possibly equally important. Movies and the like often pick up on the latter part. We skip the sex scene and jump straight to the aftermath, both parties in bed covered by sheets and trying to deal with their own emotional reactions.

I don't object to well-written sex scenes (they're sadly rare in VNs though) but it's not obligatory to show it even if you want to talk about it.

[wakagana]

It's often better to skip the sex if you are young and inexperienced because your viewpoint on it then only comes from other people writing about it. This can lead you to over-idealise the event, or misunderstand how a lot of things work. (I've read fanfic by people who've clearly never seen a member of the opposite sex naked, much less have any clue what happens next.)

Well, to be fairly honest I have a good concept of sex and have written a good deal of it before >_> -cough- On an actual scale of being in the act first person, I'd have no idea what I was doing, but I'm pretty confident about my writing skills when it comes to writing the act of two other characters getting at it and the emotions they would have. It's just a matter of where the line is drawn.

[Auro-Cyanide]

While it's true that it's badly handled in a lot of VN, that doesn't mean wakagana have to avoid it.

To be clear this isn't a question of censorship. There is no doubt that you can write and show sex. It's a natural thing and there is nothing to fear from it. However, that doesn't mean it HAS to be there, especially if it detrimental or doesn't add anything to the story. It will come off as titillation or personal author fantasy.

Sex is everywhere. I'm sure this isn't the case for everyone here, but as someone who lives in Australia and has access to the internet, I am almost completely jaded by it. It's on TV, in movies, in books and EVERYWHERE on the internet. Sometimes the theme is handled very well for the plot, but most of the time it's quite frankly boring if not just weird because of it being there. The days where showing sex was edgy and mature are long gone. Despite what some TV shows has lead people to believe, the majority of adults do not talk about sex every two seconds... unless one of my friends is around because every second sentence out of her mouth is a sexual innuendo.

Given that, I would actually advise you try thinking about other solutions first. Forbid your characters from having sex and see what else you can come up with. After you come up with other possibilities you can weigh in and see if the sex scene really is the best choice.

The reason I'm pointing this out is because of

-safe...but really boring-

It's only boring if you write it boring. Don't think of the lack of direct action like that because you will just convince yourself that it's 'the only way'. There is always more than one way to say what you want to say.
And while awkward teenage sex might be an interesting character building moment... it can also be an awkward 'I'm reading teenage sex' moment too, so think about the reader. If after the act the main character is meant to feel shocked but happy and you have the reader sitting there going "... well, that was painful to read" you are probably missing the mark.

And finally, if you are writing it, make sure you know it. Especially if it's a heterosexual couple. Sex is one of those places where gender is super important, biologically speaking and all. I have seen plenty of 'boobs and bras don't work that way' to 'Has the author even talked to the opposite sex before'. I've seen lists about bad gay sex scenes. Best advice is to run it by people of different genders, persuasions and ages to get the best feedback.

Go for it if you feel like it's the best choice and worry about ratings later (you can tone it up or down based on feedback and whether it's the correct choice), but please do consider other options.