Cliche vs. Original, Game vs. Novel, and Marketing OELVN

[jack_norton]

From my experience, and the recent Greenlight comments (rofl) the main problem is not the gameplay but the presentation. I agree that Walking Dead is basically a VN with a FEW adventure element. But is 3d. Is horror. Is real-time, animated.
Anime art seems to be hated by more people than I thought. I mean, WTF when I read comments saying that Loren or Planet Stronghold art, Rebecca's art (Heileen series) or Deji art sucks (not "it's not good" or some other critiques, they say plainly that is horrible!), I wonder what those people are thinking...

[Minnfae]

I wonder what those people are thinking...

They just don't like those particular styles. And since they don't like them, they must be bad.
Also, anime style gets labelled as either for kids (and they're too hardcore for that) or for perverts (but these games have no porn), so yeah.


I agree in that the presentation is the most important element to make a game read as much people as possible. Even if it has a mediocre story or gameplay, people will at least consider it.

[Deji]

Anime art seems to be hated by more people than I thought. I mean, WTF when I read comments saying that Loren or Planet Stronghold art, Rebecca's art (Heileen series) or Deji art sucks (not "it's not good" or some other critiques, they say plainly that is horrible!), I wonder what those people are thinking...

Some people just seem to have developed allergy to anime-style art in certain circles. It's ok if your rip-off some other style, just NOT ANIME FOR THE LOVE OF GOD. ^^;

And about my art sucking, I can agree with that statement about my older art... >>;

[jack_norton]

I don't know, there are obviously some trolls, but there are definitely too many people hating manga just for the sake of it.
I think people should start to learn to respect the work of others. Constructive critiques on my games are always welcome, but most of those comments seems pointless attacks made for no reason (or maybe, because most of them are envy of people like you or my other artists who can draw so well). Well, anyway we'll survive

[HumbertTheHorse]

Too much worry is spent on this. And too many OELVN makers excuse a poor response to a poor product on the prejudice of the market. Most OELVN spit out here are unplayable even for the VN obsessed. This frustration about the market is partly due to a lack of ground breaking VNs and abundance of unremarkable products that should be improved upon, not excused. Just because you get a good response from this forum does not mean the work is good. Just a thought.

[ViceVersa]

Honestly the way I see it, the presentation is primary when it comes to games with anime art, at least outside of Japan. It's not just a feature. When I discovered VNs, it wasn't because I was looking for interactive fiction, I was attracted to the character designs first and second and the story.

I don't see gamers ever accepting an art style that is not in their taste, but I do see general anime fans being open to an unconventional method of storytelling.

Too much worry is spent on this. And too many OELVN makers excuse a poor response to a poor product on the prejudice of the market. Most OELVN spit out here are unplayable even for the VN obsessed. This frustration about the market is partly due to a lack of ground breaking VNs and abundance of unremarkable products that should be improved upon, not excused. Just because you get a good response from this forum does not mean the work is good. Just a thought.

It may come off as angsty, but I am just fascinated by how people's tastes might change given the chance. I think the poor response of the market, especially when it comes to anime, is due to the fact that it is the wrong market to be selling to in the first place. The potential market of these kinds of games exists elsewhere than the steam crowd.
What would be a ground breaking VN, anyway?

[ThisIsNoName]

Too much worry is spent on this. And too many OELVN makers excuse a poor response to a poor product on the prejudice of the market. Most OELVN spit out here are unplayable even for the VN obsessed. This frustration about the market is partly due to a lack of ground breaking VNs and abundance of unremarkable products that should be improved upon, not excused. Just because you get a good response from this forum does not mean the work is good. Just a thought.

As much as I hate to admit it, I really have to agree, at least partially. I mean, as a fan of creators, I love seeing the VNs that are put out, and some of my favorite VNs are the ones which are the most unpolished. However, as a fan of games in general, I have to say that OELVNs are WAY behind the curve, and it's not a simple matter of being limited by the genre.
For those of you who say that the market is hating on anime/manga, just remember this is your competition. It's hard to compare a single sprite with some text to a fully realized 3d environment, no matter how good the art and writing are.

As scathing as that was, I still am, and probably always will be, a fan of OELVNs. For me, the lack of polish allows me to see the raw creative potential of each story, regardless of skill. However, that doesn't mean that the lack of polish isn't there.

[Deji]

Honestly the way I see it, the presentation is primary when it comes to games with anime art, at least outside of Japan. It's not just a feature. When I discovered VNs, it wasn't because I was looking for interactive fiction, I was attracted to the character designs first and second and the story.

I don't see gamers ever accepting an art style that is not in their taste, but I do see general anime fans being open to an unconventional method of storytelling.

Too much worry is spent on this. And too many OELVN makers excuse a poor response to a poor product on the prejudice of the market. Most OELVN spit out here are unplayable even for the VN obsessed. This frustration about the market is partly due to a lack of ground breaking VNs and abundance of unremarkable products that should be improved upon, not excused. Just because you get a good response from this forum does not mean the work is good. Just a thought.

I also agree with this.
I skip playing most VNs because of the lack of "omg pretty graphics *_*" that is what attracted me to the VN medium in the first place.

I think that the people in the community are evolving skill-wise, though. Especially in the GUI department! The boring and amateurish GUIs are slowly being replaced by cool, clean and professional looking ones and I think in the near future the commercial games will start leveling up too and attracting more players (:

[HumbertTheHorse]

That harshness was half my mood and there are very few good VNs on here. I have not seen any OELVN, though, that matches the quality of art, music, writing, and depth of story of a commercially successful Japanese VN. Take any of your favorites, that inspired spin offs of manga, anime, collectibles. What is the English equivalents? Walking Dead? Heavy Rain?

If an epic OELVN was to be released on the English speaking market my guess is it would be a great success. Just because people say they wouldn't like a VN doesn't make it true. People just talk - blah,blah,blah. When I grew up adventure games were the big thing and I think a brilliant piece of VN would scratch the public itch for that type of pacing and play.

[TrickWithAKnife]

Very interesting conversation. I wonder how we can guide each other to improve the overall quality of VNs.

I quite enjoy browsing through the Asset Creation: Art section of the forums. I'm really impressed with the guidance offered by the resident artists, and the willingness of topic creators to use that advice and improve.

Even the Asset Creation: Writing section offers some guidance, to a lesser degree.

The Ren'Py Questions and Announcements section offers a bit less in guiding others to become better programmers, but a lot of helpful solutions to particular problems.

Even some WIP topics ask for and receive helpful critiques from the community. I do get the feeling the people who do comment hold back a lot though.

But sometimes I feel like there's something missing. I can't put my finger on it, but there's something.
You can feel it in the willingness of so many people to work together on particular things, and to help each other
I know there have been attempts to do a VN incorporating many people in the community. I'm not sure how they are progressing, but I hope they are going well.

Katawa Shoujo opened a lot of eyes, even with people who are not familiar with English language VNs. Sometimes I wonder why there isn't something similar going on here, or at least more support being put into the existing ideas.
I'm not saying we should try to make another Katawa Shoujo so much, but it seems another VN that gets international attention from people outside this community will benefit us all in the long run.

[gekiganwing]

This post took some time to write, and I revised a bit here and there...

Within a given genre or category, art styles can look similar. Within a specific era, art styles might look similar. Sometimes a person needs to do research in order to understand differences in visual art. But as I've said before, there is no singular anime visual style. If you show me a "typical" character or series, then I will likely cite several that are quite different.

This frustration about the market is partly due to a lack of ground breaking VNs and abundance of unremarkable products that should be improved upon, not excused.

I hate to do this, but I have to invoke Sturgeon's Law. Ninety percent of everything is crud. Let's say that nine of ten visual novels don't have unusual or unexpected features. Let's say that 9 of 10 do not reinvent basic story concepts. Then the same thing should be said for every other type of entertainment. It's true across every genre, style, and format. It's true no matter where, when, how, or why the entertainment was made.

Everyone has to start somewhere, and everyone has to practice. Nobody can magically produce brilliant prose. Nobody can spontaneously generate innovative or refined gameplay. It takes time, commitment, patience, and passion. And even if you assemble a group of talented people, it's not easy. Teams face a whole bunch of issues, such as management and in-fighting.

I have not seen any [western VN], though, that matches the quality of art, music, writing, and depth of story of a commercially successful Japanese VN.

Commercial games and indie games are similar but separate categories. Commercial and freeware games are two very different categories. For instance, I happen to like the Japanese visual novels "A Midsummer Day's Resonance," "Koenchu," and "Private Nurse." One is freeware, one is indie, and one is commercial. There are differences in between them. In terms of western VNs, I happen to like "Project Nattsu" and "The Flower Shop." One is freeware, and one is indie. Again, there are differences in between them.

Please cite a few examples of your favorite (fan or professional) translated games. I'd like to know what your current standard-bearer game is. Though to be honest, this probably deserves a separate thread...

I grew up knowing that most of the Japanese games that I wanted were never going to be translated by any company. (For instance, look at Canned Dogs' list of all time top selling romance games as of 2009, and then lament at how few have any translation.) Judging from what I've played of translated games and VNs, I certainly like some of them, but I do not consider any of them to be untouchable gems. Some have had quality gameplay and visuals, but I do not believe any of them reach impossibly high standards. I don't think there is any video game or VN that is of such high quality that it can not be surpassed by a talented team or individual.

If one person is starting out by creating freeware, then it's not right to hold their work up to lofty standards. (Only an experienced team can make lengthy, feature rich 3D polygon games.) Instead, encourage the person to focus on one thing at a time. Provide feedback on they can refine their characters, plot, etc. Help them with art. Encourage them to improve their music. Assist them to improve their gameplay.

Often, the best way to respond to a game or VN is by creating another game. Ranting will only bring enmity. Flaming and trolling will only bring forum bans. Instead, show us what sort of game or VN you can create.

Sometimes I wonder why there isn't something similar going on here, or at least more support put into the existing ideas.

I know that some people consider KS to be excellent, but it is a mortal work created by mortal people. Therefore, I think that any person or group can create a game or VN with a similar level of quality. But please keep in mind that KS was in development for several years, and quite a few people worked on it. It's difficult to get people to cooperate on an indie game, and even tough to get them to complete a *freeware* game.

[TrickWithAKnife]

Difficult is not the same as impossible. And no matter what anyone thinks about KS, I think it helped raise the status of English language VNs. It definitely helped them get more recognition, at least.

As you said, anyone can create VN of similar quality, but somehow that isn't happening as often as it should.
Some people want to enjoy creating their game as it is, and there is nothing wrong with that.
Some people want to polish their game up, but lack the skill or direction needed. I guess that's where we come in.

I guess I feel a lot of creative energy and willingness to work together and share in this community. There has been a lot in the forums themselves, but also via PMs I've had from many people. It really is touching to know how many people want to help.

I want to help too, but I'm not really sure how. So far The Worst VN/KN Ever was my best atempt at trying to draw out some of the creative energy that is lying dormant in some people, and I think it succeeded to some degree, but it's not nearly enough. Still trying to find the next step.

[ThisIsNoName]

Katawa Shoujo opened a lot of eyes, even with people who are not familiar with English language VNs. Sometimes I wonder why there isn't something similar going on here, or at least more support being put into the existing ideas.
I'm not saying we should try to make another Katawa Shoujo so much, but it seems another VN that gets international attention from people outside this community will benefit us all in the long run.

Personally, I would like to see the same, but for it to work I think it would have to be a fully funded commercial game. Not an indie game. A full $60 console game.
The "problem" I see (not as much of a problem, but more of the situation) is that OELVN = indie to amateur VN that just happens to be written in english, instead of the original definition as a VN that is originally written in English, regardless of production level.

[Deji]

The problem with creating collaborative games is the level of involvement of the people and the scope of the project.

The bigger/longer the project, the less people are willing to get involved, since it requires a lot of work and people's interests in volunteering for something may vary over time (in my experience, after a certain amount of time and work you want to devote your free time to do things for yourself instead of working on other people's projects.)

Another matter is how much "ownership" the parties involved in the development have of the project, or at least how much they feel they have.
In my experience, sometimes writers are the ones that most ownership seem to have, and they inadvertently take away some of the ownership from, say, the artist, who are just limited to draw what the writers want them to draw/what the writers see in their minds and that's it.

In the end, it's hard to compromise.

[TrickWithAKnife]

I think there are some people in this community who would make outstanding producers.
People who can assign tasks, and keep everyone on track. People who can maintain consistency despite the different people involved.

There are also many creative problem-solvers lurking here as well. People who have much better ideas than me on how to make things happen.