Cliche vs. Original, Game vs. Novel, and Marketing OELVN

[HumbertTheHorse]

I have always wanted to make a VN. And damn it, I intend to ... starting tomorrow . As for helping my fellow artists, I admit I could do more. Still, it is good from time to time, to wave a bit of stick about. One reason I do not have to make a VN is to become rich. To be enjoyed; to learn in the making; to create. Oodles of Money? Not happening. Not that it couldn't be done by someone, I think it could, but that can't be your reason for making a VN. If it is? Well, then I wouldn't put to much store is in this community talk. This community is a respite, wonderful meeting grounds, and procrastinator's paradise. It is not going to make your game for you. It is not going to turn a poor story into a financial success. And it will not teach you time management. *stick waving vigorously*

[gekiganwing]

Personally, I would like to see the same, but for it to work I think it would have to be a fully funded commercial game. Not an indie game. A full $60 console game.

To create commercial grade software for a currently viable game system, pay the console maker's fees, and sell enough copies to make a profit -- that's a formidable goal for even a small company. I have heard that console dev costs continue to increase. We'll see what the so-called 8th generation brings... I like console games and have done so for years, but lately it's been difficult to be optimistic about them. I admit that I've been gravitating toward iOS games.

Could a single person join an existing company, and then influence them to create a western VN or romance game for consoles? Maybe. Stranger things have happened. Could a group of people band together, develop a WVN, sell it to a publisher, and get it released for full retail price on a console? Hmm, good question.

I think the most recent example of a full-retail western romance game was Brooktown High. It was developed by the now-defunct Backbone Entertainment and sold by Konami. I think it cost either $30 or $40 US... and it was not commercially successful. That was 2007. I don't remember if any companies were still optimistic about making a profit on the PSP console even back then...

Before then, there was the DS game Sprung, released in 2004 shortly after the console's debut. If the reviews for Brooktown were mixed, then the reviews for Sprung were quite bad. I frequently saw it in bargain bins.

There are a fair number of lesser-known romance games created in English by companies. For instance, during the 2000s, the company Gameloft made a few original games such as Matchmaker: Love U for cellphones. And back in the 80s, there were some computer games such as Romantic Encounters at the Dome (which was NSFW), and Plundered Hearts (with some authentic GxB content, published by Infocom).

I have always wanted to make a VN. And damn it, I intend to ... starting tomorrow.

I admit that I've spent the last few years providing feedback, and struggling to write any fiction without going into RAGEQUIT mode minutes later. But that's another topic.

Well, if you choose to create one yourself, then do it for the art. Money can be a motive in getting an indie game made... but it's far from the best motive.

The link which I provided above (yeah, another TVTropes reference...) includes a direct quote from Scott McCloud's book Understanding Comics. If you get a chance, read it. Some parts are outdated now, but it has a lot to say about creativity, thinking outside the typical concepts of a media form, pacing, structure, and so on.

[LateWhiteRabbit]

I think the poor response of the market, especially when it comes to anime, is due to the fact that it is the wrong market to be selling to in the first place. The potential market of these kinds of games exists elsewhere than the steam crowd.

You know, I disagree that the anime aesthetic is being marketing wrong on Steam. There just aren't many GOOD anime games on Steam.

The Steam community loves Recettear to death, and it's MOE anime with loli main characters.



But it's story is fun. The dialogue is snappy, imminently quotable, and hilarious. It is also a fun GAME.

A member on SomethingAwful started a playthru as a joke on Princess Maker 2 to make fun of it, and soon the dozens of forum members were playing it nonstop and comparing stories on what happened in their game. Even the original member who started it all by mocking the "game for pedos" admitted he couldn't stop playing it.

So the market IS there. But if you notice from my examples, they don't like the current kind of "thin authentic" Japanese VN. Why do we call them OELVNs anyway? Just for a language change? The OELVN community picked a certain kind of Japanese VN to bring over and market as "Visual Novels". The type with a lot of story, some choices, but little interaction or gameplay. It makes sense really - it's the "easy" type of Japanese VN to make. The Tokimeki Memorial style, the True Love '95 style, the Princess Maker style, are hard to create. But they are the closest style to the games people in the West already play. They are the ones that get the greatest reception when released in English. They are the ones the Steam crowd gushes over. There are MULTIPLE perfect VN types. But the type a lot of people are pushing is not the perfect VN type for the larger audience.

I confess, I'm one of those gamers that find "pure" VN gameplay pretty boring. Firstly, like Deji, I'm artist, so I'm attracted to good artwork first and foremost. ESPECIALLY in VNs. Because I'm doing little more than staring at the pictures for hours, they had better be good. Second, if my choices and interactions are limited, the story had better be phenomenal and paced well, or hilariously funny like Recetter's, or I'm going to go read a book or manga instead. It is why I tend to like Papillon's and Jack's games over most others - they have that "chunky in the sauce", the gameplay element. The story and graphics don't have to be perfect if there is a third element (gameplay) to take up the slack.

Many Western gamers are to Visual Novels what I was to cheese. Allow me to explain:

All my childhood and early life, I hated cheese. I refused hamburgers sullied by cheese. I hated anything cheese touched. I could not stand grilled cheese sandwiches. Everytime someone asked me if I liked cheese, or tried to show me a cheese dish they really liked, I would turn my nose up and say cheese was awful and I couldn't believe other people liked it.

But it turns out I love cheese. I just hated American cheese. When I was introduced to other kinds and varieties of cheese, I loved it. But I still intensely hate the flavor and texture of American cheese.

Western gamers are same way. A majority hate the Visual Novel games because they don't like the TYPES of Visual Novel they've been exposed to. When someone presents them with a flavor of Visual Novel they do like - they love the genre. So when they see a Visual Novel and turn their nose up at it, it's because every flavor of the genre they've seen or tried so far has tasted awful to them, not because they inherently hate the genre (even if they think they do).

[HumbertTheHorse]

But it turns out I love cheese. I just hated American cheese. When I was introduced to other kinds and varieties of cheese, I loved it. But I still intensely hate the flavor and texture of American cheese.

A credit to your taste buds.

"Today’s American cheese is generally no longer made from blended cheeses, but instead is manufactured from a set of ingredients[1] such as milk, whey, milkfat, milk protein concentrate, whey protein concentrate, and salt. In the United States,[2] it may not be legally sold as "cheese", and must be labeled as "processed cheese", "cheese product", or similar—e.g., "cheese food". At times even the word "cheese" is missing in the name on the label, e.g. "American slices" or "American singles". "

[ViceVersa]

You know, I disagree that the anime aesthetic is being marketing wrong on Steam. There just aren't many GOOD anime games on Steam.

So the market IS there. But if you notice from my examples, they don't like the current kind of "thin authentic" Japanese VN.

That's what I'm getting at, though--thin authentic VNs have a market elsewhere. It's not that they are deficient just because they don't have that much game play, if they are considered as novels rather than games.

But a lot of us really just want to write that 'thin' VN. I just want to combine literature with art in a digital format.

I confess, I'm one of those gamers that find "pure" VN gameplay pretty boring. Firstly, like Deji, I'm artist, so I'm attracted to good artwork first and foremost. ESPECIALLY in VNs. Because I'm doing little more than staring at the pictures for hours, they had better be good. Second, if my choices and interactions are limited, the story had better be phenomenal and paced well, or hilariously funny like Recetter's, or I'm going to go read a book or manga instead. It is why I tend to like Papillon's and Jack's games over most others - they have that "chunky in the sauce", the gameplay element. The story and graphics don't have to be perfect if there is a third element (gameplay) to take up the slack.

(Bold mine)
This is what I'm struggling with. I come from the opposite spectrum--I'm less interested in games and just enjoy literature and art. You look at it in terms of "If the game does not have xyz, the remaining story better be good." Whereas I think "I want to write a novel and have it illustrated with xyz." So you would enjoy a story tied with a game, in a novel or manga, but not a visual novel? Why exactly? A visual novel has the capacity to combine narrative text and image in a way that traditional novels or manga cannot, as well as introduce choice.

[PyTom]

"Today’s American cheese is generally no longer made from blended cheeses, but instead is manufactured from a set of ingredients[1] such as milk, whey, milkfat, milk protein concentrate, whey protein concentrate, and salt. In the United States,[2] it may not be legally sold as "cheese", and must be labeled as "processed cheese", "cheese product", or similar—e.g., "cheese food". At times even the word "cheese" is missing in the name on the label, e.g. "American slices" or "American singles". "

To be fair to the product - there's basically two kinds. They'res the "singles", which are a weird slurry injected into plastic wrappers. And then there's the American cheese you get sliced fresh at the deli. The latter is actually good - much better than the former. (Of course, there are other cheeses that are better.)

Random on-topic - VNs are like movies. There are people who like movies, and people who don't. But even among people who like movies, not every movie will appeal to them. It's up to a creator to find and audience for their work - by doing things like creating websites and engaging with other communities that might be interested in their work.

[CaseyLoufek]

This is what I'm struggling with. I come from the opposite spectrum--I'm less interested in games and just enjoy literature and art. You look at it in terms of "If the game does not have xyz, the remaining story better be good." Whereas I think "I want to write a novel and have it illustrated with xyz." So you would enjoy a story tied with a game, in a novel or manga, but not a visual novel? Why exactly? A visual novel has the capacity to combine narrative text and image in a way that traditional novels or manga cannot, as well as introduce choice.

I know this wasn't directed at me but I'm answering since I come from this perspective. I personally just like games. I don't think it's asking too much for the story and art of a pure visual novel to be good, probably better than one with other elements, simply because it's relying solely on those. I enjoy pure visual novels but I've seen a lot of bad ones too.

Interactivity is good but too often you get few and far between choices with very hard to guess consequences. Just having a story branch doesn't mean the player really feels like they have some control in the flow of events.

If you approach it as just a multiple choice novel that's fine if it works for your tale but with computers you can really do more. You can subtly alter scenes, even have scenes unfold in completely different ways. Each choice can affect meters instead of just putting you down a given path. You have an ability to remember that a paper choose-your-own-adventure does not unless you make the player keep track on paper and trust them to be honest and not make mistakes.

[Auro-Cyanide]

I think we can all agree that there are many different types of VNs (though the definition gets pretty murky, but for arguments sake lets swallow that one). You have pure, hybrid, sims, dating, point and click, rpg etc etc. that can all have that strong visual style and focus on story telling.

So the main point is: What exactly are people expecting this community to produce? Because we are severly limited. The majority of us are hobbyists. We don't have big budgets, we don't have a lot of people, we have limited skill sets. It's very easy to say we should do this and that and aim to be like such and such games, but what are we actually able to do?

I for one would LOVE to create hybrid VNs with gameplay. I love gameplay. But I'm not a programmer and I don't know any programmers. I'm also significantly stretched doing fairly standard VNs as it is as the sole artist. So while my aspirations are way up there, my reality only lets me do certain things. With the fail rate of VNs, it's a lot harder than it looks, and yet we should be expected to do more? I would like to see that the work we produce will help us hunt down attract a programmer so we can be more ambitious, but for now we ARE limited.

So what can we do? Well, we can be creative. We have limited resources, but that doesn't mean that there aren't differnent ways of going about things. I've already said that people tend to use formulas a lot here instead of 'designing'. Instead of going with a defalut, it's good to have a good think about the problem and consider multiple solutions before you pick one. You might surprise yourself. This goes for stories, art, GUI design, gameplay, everything. There is always more than one answer so learn the rules and then break them to pieces.

The other thing is skill. To do greater things, you need people who can do them and who are interested in doing them. The quality of skill has risen from when I was first here, and I would take a bet on it that it will increase. Like tends to attract like. The more quality work that is produced, the more new skill it will attract because people will see a potential for themselves. There are a couple things that are going to hold this back including new people diving in too deep without proper guidence and not enough writers willing to write for more than themselves, but generally it's a good curve. The best we can do there is to the best work we can and get games finished.

[LateWhiteRabbit]

So you would enjoy a story tied with a game, in a novel or manga, but not a visual novel? Why exactly? A visual novel has the capacity to combine narrative text and image in a way that traditional novels or manga cannot, as well as introduce choice.

But that's just it - a visual novel has nothing over the storytelling in manga, and the manga has more visual pictures to accompany the story. The only area visual novels shine above other mediums is choice - i.e. the more choices, the more interaction, the more gameplay, the more attractive medium they become for a story over books or manga. If it is just images accompanying a story, OVAs or manga obliterate VNs. So by the very nature of the medium, the more game-like a VN becomes, the more it is able to stand alone as a valid story delivery vehicle.

It is the player's agency to affect the storyline that makes the big difference, and a LOT of VNs fail to deliver on that, even big name titles. I mentioned My Girlfriend is the President recently - the "game" may as well have been a kinetic novel, because it only had 4 choices, and only 2 of them mattered or changed scenes. So I'm left staring at images and clicking for each line of text. And I'm a professional artist - who has worked for major film studios like Paramount - so I'm extremely picky about what I consider "good art" (probably more picky than I should be). So much of the time, the art or images side of the visual novel equation fails to impress me, so I'm left with a story I must click through one line at a time to read. THEN, that story is often generic, formulaic, boring, or poorly written. And if there isn't a fun gameplay mechanic to string me along . . . . well, I'm shutting it off.

Please note that I'm not saying those types of VNs shouldn't exist - they are just a sauce blend I can rarely stomach, as I have other ways to get my art and story fix in much more efficient forms.

So the main point is: What exactly are people expecting this community to produce? Because we are severly limited. The majority of us are hobbyists. We don't have big budgets, we don't have a lot of people, we have limited skill sets. It's very easy to say we should do this and that and aim to be like such and such games, but what are we actually able to do?

I think a lot of people on Steam have other points of reference - they see that Notch created Minecraft by himself. They see single creator games like Braid. They see games from tiny teams like Super Meat Boy. They expect a LOT out of hobbyists.

The unfortunate or not hierarchy is:
Gameplay trumps Graphics trumps Story.

But I empathize with you Auro-Cyanide, because I too have been slaving away in my free time and it takes a tremendous amount of effort to make what we do. I'm fortunate enough to have had programming classes and game industry programmers tutor me, but I too struggle with programming. (Translation, I was taught by masters, but I suck. When I finally release something, please don't look at the horrible spaghetti string code it will no doubt contain. )

....and BAM. Tied it all back into spaghetti at the end.

[Auro-Cyanide]

So the main point is: What exactly are people expecting this community to produce? Because we are severly limited. The majority of us are hobbyists. We don't have big budgets, we don't have a lot of people, we have limited skill sets. It's very easy to say we should do this and that and aim to be like such and such games, but what are we actually able to do?

I think a lot of people on Steam have other points of reference - they see that Notch created Minecraft by himself. They see single creator games like Braid. They see games from tiny teams like Super Meat Boy. They expect a LOT out of hobbyists.

The unfortunate or not hierarchy is:
Gameplay trumps Graphics trumps Story.

But I empathize with you Auro-Cyanide, because I too have been slaving away in my free time and it takes a tremendous amount of effort to make what we do. I'm fortunate enough to have had programming classes and game industry programmers tutor me, but I too struggle with programming. (Translation, I was taught by masters, but I suck. When I finally release something, please don't look at the horrible spaghetti string code it will no doubt contain. )

....and BAM. Tied it all back into spaghetti at the end.

Even if they compared us to Bioware, it doesn't really change what we can and can not do. The one thing this community lacks even more than artists is programmers. There are only a handful I think who are good enough to do significant gameplay elements (I can barely scrap by using Ren'Py defaults ;_;). How you would attract more here over other games... *shrug* I wouldn't have a clue. But generally people are doing the best they can. It's either that or quiting. Or moving to a different medium, but I have no idea how I would fair that way and I would still want to work on things with a strong story setting because that's why I'm here in the first place. There is a market for thoese types of games even if it isn't the majority, so that's a good thing. And I think people are pretty content to make games that they like. I know I'm not in it for the money or the fame or anything like that. I just like making something constructive with my art that other people can interact with. They aren't my ideal games since I would like more gameplay, but it's pretty close

[Sapphi]

But that's just it - a visual novel has nothing over the storytelling in manga, and the manga has more visual pictures to accompany the story. The only area visual novels shine above other mediums is choice - i.e. the more choices, the more interaction, the more gameplay, the more attractive medium they become for a story over books or manga. If it is just images accompanying a story, OVAs or manga obliterate VNs.

The way I see it, visual novels are a great method to get a story out there, perhaps even for potential OVA adaptation, without jumping through the hoops of submitting to publishers or studios. Unlike traditional books, you can more specifically show the images and setting you want, when you want. Unlike manga, you can set the mood with music, specific sfx, and limited animation. No one person can make an OVA in a sane amount of time (unless you're the next Makoto Shinkai... but even his work had its limits) but one person CAN make a visual novel, and I find that incredibly empowering. Not only can it stand alone (IMO), but the right person could stumble across it, enjoy it, and think of adapting it.

I have this loose prediction that in the future, as more people grow accustomed to the internet, studios will be more willing to scour it for good stories to adapt and good talent to hire. I think we might see an increase in adaptations of self-published stories as the mainstream media taps into the doujin pool of ideas. With more of our kind coming into power, it's unthinkable that the mainstream and internet culture won't merge at some point. But that's just the speculation of a hare-brained artist.

....and BAM. Tied it all back into spaghetti at the end.

Go eat your darn pasta already, you're making me hungry!

[Blane Doyle]

So you would enjoy a story tied with a game, in a novel or manga, but not a visual novel? Why exactly? A visual novel has the capacity to combine narrative text and image in a way that traditional novels or manga cannot, as well as introduce choice.

But that's just it - a visual novel has nothing over the storytelling in manga, and the manga has more visual pictures to accompany the story. The only area visual novels shine above other mediums is choice - i.e. the more choices, the more interaction, the more gameplay, the more attractive medium they become for a story over books or manga. If it is just images accompanying a story, OVAs or manga obliterate VNs. So by the very nature of the medium, the more game-like a VN becomes, the more it is able to stand alone as a valid story delivery vehicle.

I have to say that one of the reasons visual novels stand out above manga for me is the sound (the others being gameplay, of course, and COLOR HELZ YEA which is a silly reason). Voices or no voices, I get a fix from ambient music and sound effects. It's like taking something great about manga, anime, and novels (well, more like light novels) and combining them into this awesome new thing. (Unless you make School Days. Then you make a thing.)

In your description, it's like kinetic novels (as they have no choices at all, or even your example of a VN with little choices) are exactly the same as manga, but I would argue that given the description and sound they are at least a small step above. To me anyway.

However, that is the only thing I have to disagree with. Honestly, everything else in your post makes sense and I find no issue with it at all (agreeing or not agreeing, no issue still means to issue with me).

Can I also say you're making me REALLY hungry right now? I adore food analogies but I never realized they made me so HUNGRY.

[TrickWithAKnife]

Instead of going with a default, it's good to have a good think about the problem and consider multiple solutions before you pick one. You might surprise yourself...

...learn the rules and then break them to pieces.

This. 
I want to print it out and frame it. 
And I also want to wave it around in front of everyone who is about to embark on a new project.

Personally I never understood why anyone would want to do the same thing as everyone else. Unless you can be unique in some way, aren't you setting yourself up to get ignored? 

When I was a student, I used to drive my programming tutor insane. I could complete whatever task he gave me, but he always knew I did the coding before the planning.
I was frustrated because everything I did was exactly the same as the people who got high grades, and in some cases even better.

I'm not going to argue that planning on what you can do based on your abilities is important, but sometimes you have to approach projects from another angle. Decide what you want, and if you can't do it, try to figure out how. If that doesn't work, then figure out some other way, or give up on that particular idea.

I'm no programmer by any stretch of the imagination, and anyone who saw my coding would probably face-palm,  but it works. There are very few things that I want to do that I haven't been able to yet, and even then I haven't given up on the ideas. I have a massive list of ideas that may e added as my skill grows.
A lot of the challenges I've overcome have been with guidance from people here.

Basically this is a long-winded version of what Auro-Cyanide already said.

By the way, I didn't notice any programmer wanted topics in the forum...

[Blane Doyle]

By the way, I didn't notice any programmer wanted topics in the forum...

I think that may be because a lot of the creators (myself included) want to figure out and teach ourselves how to program on our own if we are not already experienced.

Then again, once I finish scripting what I am working on you'll probably see one anyway.

[ViceVersa]

The way I see it, visual novels are a great method to get a story out there, perhaps even for potential OVA adaptation, without jumping through the hoops of submitting to publishers or studios. Unlike traditional books, you can more specifically show the images and setting you want, when you want. Unlike manga, you can set the mood with music, specific sfx, and limited animation. No one person can make an OVA in a sane amount of time (unless you're the next Makoto Shinkai... but even his work had its limits) but one person CAN make a visual novel, and I find that incredibly empowering. Not only can it stand alone (IMO), but the right person could stumble across it, enjoy it, and think of adapting it.

This is how I look at it. Indie creators can't create anime in the same way indie music producers can create music. A comic is pretty much the storyboard for the animation, and although that is a doable option, isn't quite the same. Personally, I am not a huge fan of comics because I prefer fewer, polished, natural looking illustrations to quantity. I'm probably in the minority though.

I also see more potential for VN with portable phones and such. Instead of going to a store and buying a comic, you can download it on itunes. There are already some comic series like this, but I naturally find the VN format more appropriate than traditional panels for a small screen.