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So I've spent a lot of time browsing through the forum, considering ideas and pitfalls I may run into as I am embarking on my first VN project. I find the future of VNs an intriguing subject, and I'd like to share some observations that I need to get off my chest.

First, the desire for VN to reach a larger audience in the west seems a bit confused and misguided. There's a move to have VN more acceptable in the gaming industry, or perhaps shed a bit of its Japanese aesthetic influence to appeal to western tastes, improve the quality and expanse of the writing to appeal to those with more polished literary tastes and prove itself as a legitimate storytelling medium, get rid of or enhance the eroticism, more or less choices, etc, etc. Are you going to convince gamers to read more? Or would it be better to convince readers to play more? Get gamers to try romance? Get romance readers to look at pictures? Get anime lovers interested in multiple choice endings? All of the above at the same time???

That's just crazy.

This Ted talk pretty much illustrates the main identity crisis I see with the future of OELVNs:
http://www.ted.com/talks/malcolm_gladwe ... sauce.html
(Please watch the whole thing!)

Visual Novels won't succeed just by being well balanced with a decent story, decent art, decent programming, decent this, decent that...Quality is important, but no one is looking for well rounded and safe across multiple categories, people are looking to get their fix, and it's important to know specifically what that is. It could be the anime art, the genre of the story, tentacle porn, Christian Grey, interactivity, or game play. Instead of trying to make visual novels as a category in itself more diverse and 'legitimate,' simply introduce fans of [your favorite already established western genre] to a new way of enjoying what they already love.

It's not like there are two people in the world: those who play VNs and those who don't. These categories will not help you. There is a tendency to place a VN featuring attractive bishounen into the same category as a puzzle solving VN, even though they are entirely different products. And, even though it may hurt the creator's pride to admit it, the former is more in line with Twilight than it is with the gaming industry. This isn't a bad thing.

Speaking of Twilight, let's take a specific but very popular shoujo category. There may not be a lot of people who are aware of VNs in the west, BUT, there is a huge market for paranormal fantasy romance fiction featuring hot guys. And fans of this genre are not so technically picky like a gamer might be. They will hunt down their perfect fantasy male in books, movies, online fiction, graphic novels, celebrity photos, and, I would presume, visual novels. But you can't sell it to them as a game, you sell them the romance experience which just so happens to be in a different format than what they are used to. (And for those who are already groaning at the fact that visual novels will likely continue to appeal such low brow adolescent fantasies:
Just because it falls under a certain genre does not mean it can't be a great product or story. It'll be as good as you can make it.)

Now that I think about it, there probably isn't a faster way to shoehorn VNs into a mainstream audience than to make ones based on existing popular fiction. In other words, fan fiction with pretty pictures. It would be a mainly female audience of course, but that isn't surprising considering the vast majority of fiction readers are women.

What do you think? (I kind of went all over the place)

There is a tendency to place a VN featuring attractive bishounen into the same category as a puzzle solving VN, even though they are entirely different products.

Some VNs have both, you know

papillon wrote:

There is a tendency to place a VN featuring attractive bishounen into the same category as a puzzle solving VN, even though they are entirely different products.

Some VNs have both, you know

This is true, and 'puzzle solving' might be vague of an example. My point is that the puzzle solving mostly enhances the romantic aspect, which is still the main appeal. It's not something you would pitch to those who just want to immerse themselves in an interactive mystery crime thriller, or something.

ViceVersa wrote: What do you think? (I kind of went all over the place)

I think I agree with your general idea. I've already come to the conclusion that saying "Visual Novel" is like saying "Manga" - I can say "I like manga", but there are genres in manga I don't, in fact, like. I think it's that way for everyone. This should be immediately apparent to anyone with half a brain, but in America as a response to the manga boom we got stuff like "The Manga Bible" and "How to draw Manga" from people who seem to believe manga can be distilled down to one specific style of drawing that will please every single person.

Going back to your initial complaint, I'll admit that the worry of how to appeal to a mainstream audience has never been a big issue for me. It is something I consider while writing, to a point, because one needs to understand people in order to create sympathetic characters or otherwise produce an emotional reaction. But in the end, I'm not concerned because I'm not planning to sell my work. I am also a niche consumer - I find I routinely enjoy movies, books, subjects, and tropes that the majority of people don't. So in the end, I plan to write what I like for three audiences: myself, others who have similar preferences, and people who also have similar preferences but don't know it yet.

I sense this is what you're getting at here, that we shouldn't try to smooth things out for general audiences but should specialize according to taste. This is my feeling too, since there are some things I absolutely adore that don't do anything for the other 99% of readers, and there are some things I hate that other people love. I can have mine, and they can have theirs... but to eliminate those outliers and reduce everything down to the safest and most popular tastes at the cost of specialization is a shame and a pity.

This, by the way, is why I can't find good bakery bread in my area of the USA. Groceries and bread bakers assume that Americans want their bread refined, sweetened with sugar, and with a very soft crust. I, personally, happen to have rather old school taste in bread and want mine rustic, with a rock-hard crust and no added sugar. I suspect there are many Americans who would also vastly prefer this if they had ever encountered it, but instead grew up eating sandwiches on that monotonous and unfortunate American staple that is Wonder Bread.

Good video, thanks for sharing.

This reminds me of a writing lesson I just did. The lesson was on how to "pigeonhole" your novel into an accepted genre. The point wasn't to change your novel; the point was to change the way you described your novel to prospective readers.
"A young student must discover who is behind the disappearances on campus." (Mystery)
-vs-
"A shadowy organization is manipulating the life of a young man." (Thriller)
(Ok, mystery and thriller aren't that far apart, but it was the best I could come up with.)

Susan

ViceVersa wrote:So I've spent a lot of time browsing through the forum, considering ideas and pitfalls I may run into as I am embarking on my first VN project. I find the future of VNs an intriguing subject, and I'd like to share some observations that I need to get off my chest.

First, the desire for VN to reach a larger audience in the west seems a bit confused and misguided. There's a move to have VN more acceptable in the gaming industry, or perhaps shed a bit of its Japanese aesthetic influence to appeal to western tastes, improve the quality and expanse of the writing to appeal to those with more polished literary tastes and prove itself as a legitimate storytelling medium, get rid of or enhance the eroticism, more or less choices, etc, etc. Are you going to convince gamers to read more? Or would it be better to convince readers to play more? Get gamers to try romance? Get romance readers to look at pictures? Get anime lovers interested in multiple choice endings? All of the above at the same time???

That's just crazy.

This Ted talk pretty much illustrates the main identity crisis I see with the future of OELVNs:
http://www.ted.com/talks/malcolm_gladwe ... sauce.html
(Please watch the whole thing!)

I actually just listened to that TED Talk last night for no particular reason other than my room mates like TED Talks. I feel about VNs the same way I do about Dubstep: Awesome, but a bit of a one trick pony without the breadth to really be a full genre in its own right.

Visual Novels won't succeed just by being well balanced with a decent story, decent art, decent programming, decent this, decent that...Quality is important, but no one is looking for well rounded and safe across multiple categories, people are looking to get their fix, and it's important to know specifically what that is. It could be the anime art, the genre of the story, tentacle porn, Christian Grey, interactivity, or game play. Instead of trying to make visual novels as a category in itself more diverse and 'legitimate,' simply introduce fans of [your favorite already established western genre] to a new way of enjoying what they already love.

It's not like there are two people in the world: those who play VNs and those who don't. These categories will not help you. There is a tendency to place a VN featuring attractive bishounen into the same category as a puzzle solving VN, even though they are entirely different products. And, even though it may hurt the creator's pride to admit it, the former is more in line with Twilight than it is with the gaming industry. This isn't a bad thing.

Splitting hairs. From a certain angle World of Darkness is as in line with Twilight as it is the rest of the gaming world. Not saying this for shock value. It's story centered supernatural roleplaying and the source material often references romance. The first iteration was practically a story itself told in RPG book format. Gaming is broad, so is fiction and the overlap is huge.

Speaking of Twilight, let's take a specific but very popular shoujo category. There may not be a lot of people who are aware of VNs in the west, BUT, there is a huge market for paranormal fantasy romance fiction featuring hot guys. And fans of this genre are not so technically picky like a gamer might be. They will hunt down their perfect fantasy male in books, movies, online fiction, graphic novels, celebrity photos, and, I would presume, visual novels. But you can't sell it to them as a game, you sell them the romance experience which just so happens to be in a different format than what they are used to. (And for those who are already groaning at the fact that visual novels will likely continue to appeal such low brow adolescent fantasies:
Just because it falls under a certain genre does not mean it can't be a great product or story. It'll be as good as you can make it.)

Now that I think about it, there probably isn't a faster way to shoehorn VNs into a mainstream audience than to make ones based on existing popular fiction. In other words, fan fiction with pretty pictures. It would be a mainly female audience of course, but that isn't surprising considering the vast majority of fiction readers are women.

What do you think? (I kind of went all over the place)

This is a good idea overall though I disagree with one thing. There is no reason you can't sell it as a game. Selling it as a game will make it clear what they are getting in to and make them more likely to try others. It will also draw in a wider audience. You just can't make "game" the ONLY selling point. Perhaps not even the major one.

In a lot of ways this isn't so different from the traditional Japanese VNs. You're selling smut to young people. Fanfiction means it can't be commericial under normal circumstances and I'm not sure this would really be "mainstream" but there is definitely a market here. The emphasis of written fantasy over visual pornography is a shift in flavor, but a small one really. One thing that gets me is that Americans love porn but don't seem to get in to erotic VNs.

Visual porn sells well, erotic literature sells well. Good VNs tend to be the best of both worlds and the bad ones aren't any worse than the bad examples of the others. I have to wonder if it's as simple and arbitrary as the American association of animation with children's entertainment. If that's the case I wonder if 3d models may solve this. They don't have the same association and are frequently used in American porn but don't look nearly so weird in still VNs as photos of people.

I think a VN is the optimum format for erotica but there is no reason a good VN has to be erotica.

They work for novel and comic like structures, particularly if you want interactivity. But think about the price of a comic or novel... people don't want to pay twice that or more for a book that turns it's own pages and the near randomness of some choose-your-own-adventure stories may have pee'd in the pool for making interactivity a selling point. So it works but only if your concept is good and you can really play to the strengths of making it a VN. The simple standard branching-story structure may be common but I think it's a kludge that doesn't play to the strengths of what a computer tracking variables can really do. If that's the basis your design you need a good story which is significantly more interesting for being multi-linear.

But as I said before, I think VNs may be a little TOO specialized to be their own full genre as far as gaming is concerned. I could make Fallout 2 in Ren'py. In fact, if I was told I had to re-make Fallout 2 and wasn't concerned with adding any kind of network multiplayer, I probably would use Ren'py. You can't tell me Fallout and Final Fantasy aren't mainstream. I also can't stand a single FF outside the ones with Tactics in the title because of the linear storyline, lack of dialog interactivity and general feeling this isn't even an RPG but a graphic novel tied to a combat simulator. Even Tactics has that, it just has a better combat simulator.

So another way to go is to not try to make a visual novel as a game, but to see the visual novel engine as a component of the game like the physics engine or combat system. I think that there is an element of synergy to adding what is basically a VN engine to most RPG formats. We're seeing a reinsurance of this now that the JRPG style has faded but it's disappointing that I can go back to the late 80s and early 90s and find RPGs whose story-lines are at least as interactive and complex as the best of today. I can't say the art was lost, those games were gems in their day as well, but it basically has not advanced in over a decade.

I think there's a reason detective games as the second major category after erotica and that's because the sort of engine you want to make a good detective game is very much in line with what you want a VN. That and dialog clues are a big thing in detective stories.

On the one hand I see VNs struggling to be viable on their own and on the other I see other games struggling for lack of a VN aspect. Thankfully when I look at the commercial games made with Ren'py I see I am not the only one who feels this way.

Without going into too much detail, I think you bring up many good points and hit some right on the mark. I don't agree completely, but it is nice to see this sort of insight from someone that makes me think about OELVNs and VNs as a whole. It was an interesting read and the video was very interesting to watch.

((I need to stop being so non-committal and vague on things like this))

ViceVersa wrote:This Ted talk pretty much illustrates the main identity crisis I see with the future of OELVNs:
http://www.ted.com/talks/malcolm_gladwe ... sauce.html
(Please watch the whole thing!)

Very interesting episode!

According to this, the key is in embracing Diversity.
-- I don't know about others, but coming from a book publishing industry background: I already knew that. Books sell BECAUSE they are diverse. Because they come in an enormous variety such as: non-fiction, sci-fi, futuristic, historical fiction, historical romance, historical fantasy, high fantasy, urban fantasy, erotic fantasy...etc.

Just so you know, I see visual novels: as Stories that have game elements.
-- But that's just me. Others see it the other way around; a Game with story elements.

Truthfully it doesn't matter how they're viewed because there's plenty of room for the entire spectrum from one extreme to the other, and like Books, they sell BECAUSE they are that diverse.

...simply introduce fans of [your favorite already established western genre] to a new way of enjoying what they already love.

This is actually the problem.
-- Traditional JVNs don't quite work with the Western audience because what the West already loves isn't always present in JVNs, and what they Hate often is.

But romance is romance, right?
Porn is porn?

Not quite...
-- The book publishing industry in the West (Europe too, not just the Americas,) recently had a huge cultural revolution over Sex Positive vs Sex Negative: sex that makes the reader feel good about themselves, verses sex that makes the reader feel like perverted freaks. In short, the erotic plots and the characters engaging in erotic activities had a huge overhaul to make Sex a Good thing, instead of a dirty little secret you didn't talk about -- to anyone, (not even your lover or your spouse.)

Namely:
-- Female characters are no longer written as sex-crazed Sluts or Passive Victims who like sex in spite of themselves.
-- Male characters are no longer written as rapists, (though they did keep the aggressive Seducer.)
But most importantly....
-- Sex makes everything Better, especially Love.

Well that's just books, right?

No, it's not just books. This shift in attitude has bled into the Porn industry too. You can actually buy/rent xXx porn movies that are sex positive: where the characters are Not treated like freaks for liking sex. Adam and Eve in particular has made a huge killing selling this type of movie (in every genre flavor you can think of) to almost exclusively female buyers. Just to put things in perspective, 20 years ago Women buying porn for themselves was Unheard Of because "women didn't buy porn." They do now! And a lot of it.

In the meantime, Sex-Negative porn is dying off.
-- You can still find it, but the porn Producers that don't make sex-negative movies drastically out-number the ones that still do. These days, Sex Negative sells to only a small niche of people and this small niche is who JVN eroge would generally appeal to. (This is in addition to those of us that got into it because we love Anime.)

This shift in attitude about sex (fom Negative: Sex is Bad, to Positive: Sex is Good,) hasn't happened in Japan -- yet, and it shows in their work.
-- Worse, this sex-negative attitude shows in their Romances too.

So, No. Porn is Not Porn, and Romance is Not Romance.

This is the number one reason why the two top-selling genres of JVNs; Porn and Romance, aren't selling so well in the West.

However, everything else; all the other genres of JVN, sell just fine.

CaseyLoufek wrote: So another way to go is to not try to make a visual novel as a game, but to see the visual novel engine as a component of the game like the physics engine or combat system.

This is how I see visual novels - as components of a larger game. If you took games like Chrono Trigger, Mass Effect, Deus Ex, and stripped out all combat and running around, you'd have visual novels. But for some reason the Visual Novel community intentionally ghettos itself into trying to conform to a single standard of guidelines 20 years old.

Games like Telltale's "The Walking Dead" are really visual novels. They belong in the same genre. Yet people heap tons of praise on that game, for, I quote:

"It's all about decisions and interactions, and making choices in the story that affect how things happen later on."

A big reviewer recently described that title as an "interactive comic" and the best game he's played all year. If you haven't played that game, it has almost no actual gameplay besides listening to people and making choices in the story, then seeing how things play out. (Off topic: Telltale's The Walking Dead game is a masterclass in interactive story telling that every visual novel creator should play.)

The point I'm laboring toward, tied back into the TED speech, is that the general public in the West LOVES visual novels. They just don't like the thin "authentic" blend we brought over from Japan and insist on pushing in the community. They what "chunky spaghetti sauce" visual novels.

OokamiKasumi wrote:::sex positive replacing sex negative::

Mind blown. I've been watching this happen and didn't realize it. It makes a lot of sense.

LateWhiteRabbit wrote:

OokamiKasumi wrote:::sex positive replacing sex negative::

Mind blown. I've been watching this happen and didn't realize it. It makes a lot of sense.

If you look at what people are complaining about, you can easily see that the Sex-Negative attitude is the core issue with otome and eroge games.

Fix that, and you'll fix everything.

I don't think this is really a big problem. It's all about design. If you know your audience, or who you want your audience to be, and you know what the goal of your game is, you can work out everything that should go in between. It's a big mistake to think VNs have to be 'this' or have to be 'that'. There is no set recipe, only a problem that you have to solve. Some VNs will benefit from gameplay, because of their story or because of their audience, and others will not for the same reasons Everyone should look for the pieces that fit their game. It's a puzzle that will have an answer different from anyone elses. I highly encourage people to think about the conventions they use and why they use them, especially if there may be a better answer out there, since there is always more than one answer.

We can't and shouldn't compete with mainstream games. We don't have the manpower or money. We don't even have the man power or money to compete with Japanese VNs. What we can do is tell stories that no-one else is telling in ways that no-one else is telling them in. One of the major reasons otome EVNs are so popular is because so few of them have been translated (as well as the general lack of girl friendly media everywhere). VNs have a boat load of potential in terms of design and game mechanics that people haven't really scratched the surface of yet, so there is plenty to look into.

That said, I think generally we are in a growing phase. Designing vs following a pattern will go a long way to helping to differentiating what we do best, introducing variation as we continue to experiment, but it's going to take time. Doing what we can do in a way that is creative and interesting. It's impossible to force an audience to just like something, so to a certain degree you have to let them come to you.

Auro-Cyanide wrote:I don't think this is really a big problem. It's all about design. If you know your audience, or who you want your audience to be, and you know what the goal of your game is, you can work out everything that should go in between. It's a big mistake to think VNs have to be 'this' or have to be 'that'. There is no set recipe, only a problem that you have to solve. Some VNs will benefit from gameplay, because of their story or because of their audience, and others will not for the same reasons Everyone should look for the pieces that fit their game. It's a puzzle that will have an answer different from anyone elses. I highly encourage people to think about the conventions they use and why they use them, especially if there may be a better answer out there, since there is always more than one answer.

That said, I think generally we are in a growing phase. Designing vs following a pattern will go a long way to helping to differentiating what we do best, introducing variation as we continue to experiment, but it's going to take time. It's impossible to force an audience to just like something, so to a certain degree you have to let them come to you.

I agree it's not a problem as long as creators know what to expect and who they are targeting. Like the different varieties of spaghetti sauce, there is a segment of the population that is going to love a VN done in any flavor. But creators should also be aware enough to realize when they are catering to a very niche "flavor" group that makes up a small percentage of the general population, and tailor expectations accordingly.

It can also be helpful to realize a much wider audience may exist for your VN formula with a few tweaks, for those that like spaghetti sauce chunky instead of thin. You can still keep all your same ingredients - you're just cooking it differently. (God, I love this sauce metaphor. Anyone else getting hungry for pasta?)

How this forum (and of course, game developers) grow is really interesting.
Personally, I like a lot games from this site because they are made by amateurs. Or more like they have the freedom of amateurs. Games are more diverse and creators tend to take more freedom, when they don't need the games to make them tons of money. Pour example; a big company like EA can't invest a shitload of money and time on a game if they don't think it will sell to a larger audience. Amateur games and/or indie games doesn't need or even have the chance to sell/appeal to such an large audience. Even while games like these tend to have lower quality than professional games (charged with the power of $$$$), I love how plot, art, concepts, etc. are different.
((On top of it all, most games are free! 8D ))

Thanks for replying everyone, and helping me sort out my thoughts. I'm sure that before I was projecting my own confusions about what I wish to accomplish on the rest of the community, though some may identify.

It can also be helpful to realize a much wider audience may exist for your VN formula with a few tweaks, for those that like spaghetti sauce chunky instead of thin. You can still keep all your same ingredients - you're just cooking it differently. (God, I love this sauce metaphor. Anyone else getting hungry for pasta?)

This is what I was getting at through all of my ramblings, thank you. And I love pasta.

This has been a thoughtful thread so far. Hopefully my thoughts will contribute and be helpful...

I strive to avoid using the term "OEL" to describe anything. Why's that? Well... a few years ago, some comics creators and marketers tried to sell their content with a variety of names. I remember hearing phrases such as "OEL manga" (to me, that implies the creator is trying to imitate their favorite series, styles, etc), "Amerimanga" (which rules out anyone who currently lives elsewhere), "world manga" (not bad, but what does it mean?), and so on. Most of the companies which tried these marketing angles are either long gone or alive in name only. These days, I'd be surprised to find anyone who uses these terms to describe their content. "Comics" and "webcomics" are universal and easily understood. While comics are in a ghetto compared to prose, their reputation seems to be improving.

Also, I would be surprised to find any current general video game creators who would describe their work as "OEL games," or who would earnestly use any similar term. While video games are in a ghetto compared to movies and television, their reputation also seems to be improving.

ViceVersa wrote:There's a move to have VN more acceptable in the gaming industry, or perhaps shed a bit of its Japanese aesthetic influence to appeal to western tastes, improve the quality and expanse of the writing to appeal to those with more polished literary tastes and prove itself as a legitimate storytelling medium, get rid of or enhance the eroticism, more or less choices, etc, etc.

With a different aesthetic, it's possible to find a new audience. The two-part Vera Blanc series, The Chaos Gateway (an XBLA indie game), and Cinders are some examples of western VNs that have a distinct and different visual style. From what I've heard, Vera Blanc has a small but dedicated fanbase, but not many people have bought them. I'm not sure how many people noticed the other two...

Writing quality is not easy to appreciate. By comparison, pictures get an immediate reaction. Music and gameplay only take a little time to gauge and enjoy. So yeah, it's not a bad idea to focus on your writing, but keep in mind that it will take some time for the audience to note it.

I have no problem with creators including sex scenes in their western VNs. If that's *what they want,* fine. But explicit content should not be obligatory. And if you ask me, I would prefer a bit more separation between VNs in general and porn games...but that's just my opinion.

ViceVersa wrote:Now that I think about it, there probably isn't a faster way to shoehorn VNs into a mainstream audience than to make ones based on existing popular fiction.

Chasing trends can work, but I don't know if it is a good idea. Today's fresh idea is tomorrow's cliche. Today's top-seller is tomorrow's bargain bin filler. Nothing lasts forever but the earth and sky. Not even cold November rain. For a bunch of examples, see TVTropes' discussion on following another creator's lead. Warning: TVTropes is highly addictive.

So yeah, before trying to create Popular Romance Story 2012: The Game, think a bit. What do you genuinely like in your fiction? What sort of aesthetics do you enjoy? If you want to incorporate gameplay, then what do you find appealing in your games?

It can be helpful to look at popular stuff and ask yourself, "What is the appeal? What is this product doing right?" It's probably more than just the surface appeal, and more than just some audacious premise or gimmick. For more thoughts, scroll down to Groundbreaking Works and start reading.

LateWhiteRabit wrote:This is how I see visual novels - as components of a larger game. If you took games like Chrono Trigger, Mass Effect, Deus Ex, and stripped out all combat and running around, you'd have visual novels... Games like Telltale's "The Walking Dead" are really visual novels.

I'll concede your point. I like gameplay about as much as I like storytelling. Pretty much every video game in my collection from 1989 to 2002 emphasized constant interaction, no matter whether it was action, adventure, puzzle, or anything. Yes, even the games that my peers considered boring (such as Nobunaga's Ambition, the first few Dragon Warrior/Quest games, and Shadowgate). Meanwhile, I was reading a lot of prose fiction, a few gamebooks, and some alternative comics. It's taken me a while to think that a genuine quality combination of gameplay and narrative was possible.

Some freeware and indie creators have created games that have gameplay and/or themes similar to the Tokimeki Memorial and Princess Maker franchises. I applaud their efforts, especially since there is almost no chance that any game from either franchise will have an official English localization. While I would like to see more content that resembles LovePlus, the Sakura Wars series, or the Idolm@ster franchise, I don't want an imitation. It would be far better for a game to keep some of the praiseworthy elements, but also have its own aesthetic, themes, and so on.