Can there be too much plot? How to deal with it?

[curlymonster]

I've had a story brewing around in my head for a long time. (Well, I still have, but hopefully you get the point.)
I got no idea how to tell it, (perhaps as a vn?,) but I'm set on making it somehow.
The thing is, I fear it has become too complicated. It started out as merely a "Let's have a [parasite-which-does-X-but-makes-host-cannibalistic] in our story's world!" Then, me being me, helplessly started thinking. And thinking.

(Where should it come from? Surely, someone would try to use it for personal gain. What if those whom discovered it tries to organize it somehow? A system like that might not work well today, but in earlier centuries, would it work? How and when should it end? People have families, so if people keep disappearing someone are bound to...)

Before I knew it, I have plotted a complex drama/suspense filled situation in an (at least) more-than-150-years-ago European setting. Subplots, characters with conflicting motives, interesting psychological situations and potentially "mind-blowing" reveals all over the place, waiting for someone to tip them over and start the tension filled domino of disaster.
Now, setting aside the fact that I need a lot of experience/research/etc. (What about actually starting/finishing something?) and the chances that the "omfg-so-geniouz" story/plot turns out to not really be that interesting to others, I want to ask;

How do you deal with overly complicated stories?
(I'm not necessarily talking about something proportionally crazy, like a dating sim/rpg with 12 pursueable characters, (with different outfits and poses,) 32 endings and 42 backgrounds.)
Of course, like always, not all solutions are the best to all problems; it will depend on the story in question. But I'd love some general advice/ what you guys think.
An obvious solution, is to cut the plot. A common advice when it comes to "trimming" stories, is to remove that which is not relevant to the story/theme. But what if it is relevant? Are there too many things which are relevant? How to decide what to exclude? How do we deal with this? XD
I seem to have a lot of characters with interesting circumstances, come to the same place for different reasons. (Which sounds rather common, don't you think?) One could have different paths in the story cover different characters/subjects.
But if you branch out too early, too much, or let the branches go too far, it would generate a lot of additional work. It would also be easy to leave a crappy amount of plot holes on people who don't complete all endings. (One could make variations, like having few but larger branches covering more characters in each branch or many "dead-ends" with clues, or something in-between.)
One could also make the game allowed to be played in different character's pov, though that sounds like it's filled to the brim with monstrous amounts work. (A separate game covering another aspect/pov would be a variant of this, wouldn't it?)
What about a "library" function accessible from the main menu, where you can read unlocked letters or pages/etc from books/diaries, after they have been unlocked in-game? (In a similar fashion to gallery unlocks?)

... While writing this, I realize I am actually trying to ask two slightly different questions at the same time.

When is too heavy tension/atmosphere a problem and how to solve it?
I guess things like this mostly become a problem over time, since it could wear out the reader. But how to deal with it? Watering down the heavy plot with something? Lighten it up with fluff? Try to give the reader breaks by letting them think they solved something?
Or something entirely else?

Hope I didn't obscure the questions too much with my own blabbering. XD' Well, I could always edit the post later if it is too unclear. Please share your opinions! :)

[Sapphi]

A common advice when it comes to "trimming" stories, is to remove that which is not relevant to the story/theme. But what if it is relevant?

Um... you end up with an enormous epic novel? ^_^;

I also await the answers to this thread, because I wonder the same thing myself, too. If your theme is something very vast, what do you do? Do you take aspects of that theme and treat them in separate stories? Or do you simply tackle all of those aspects within one enormous work? Is it simply a matter of personal taste?

[Victoria Jennings]

Well, first off, I think having a whole lot of plot is useful, even if you never actually use it in the game. It helps develop the world for you in a way that makes it easier to write.

Of course, moderation is key, as it always is. Don't spend too much time on stuff that will never show up in the game.

And as to deciding what will and will not appear... well, what are you trying to say with this game? Why are you making it? 0:

[ViceVersa]

I'm pretty much in the exact same situation. There are a lot of pieces to the puzzle that I'm trying to fit together coherently, with different point of view, history, world building, and the like. The thing is that I am not a fan of exposition, or facing a ton of unusual facts at the beginning. It's really critical that things are revealed naturally through the flow of the story. A lot of alternate universe stories rely on the info dump, but it's just uncomfortable (some people love it).

If this is your first project like this, I would recommend starting out small. Trying to finish something for the first time that also happens to be super complex will overwhelm you. If there is a simple story among all of this information, try to pinpoint what that is and focus only on that. Where is the main thrust?

Having someone else read your story and give you their perspective will help you a great deal. It's very difficult to judge how easy it is to understand the progression of your own story, because you already know all the background information. Get another pair of eyes on it.

I seem to have a lot of characters with interesting circumstances, come to the same place for different reasons. (Which sounds rather common, don't you think?)

Just as common as the hero saves the day, but that's what a story is all about (most of the time). It's all about execution.

When is too heavy tension/atmosphere a problem and how to solve it?
I guess things like this mostly become a problem over time, since it could wear out the reader. But how to deal with it? Watering down the heavy plot with something? Lighten it up with fluff? Try to give the reader breaks by letting them think they solved something?
Or something entirely else?

Figure out what kind of story it is and what you are trying to do. If it is dark and bleak, don't make it fluffy. A lot of stories are intentionally oppressive. The main thing to avoid is too much confusion. There can be mystery, but it gets tedious if 10 different characters are trying to figure out 10 different things. Again, try to keep it simple, or at least intuitive.

I would choose one character to build a solid story structure around first, and if that is not enough, you can begin to add other viewpoints to compliment it, so that each inclusion has a purpose and does not overwhelm the story.

[HumbertTheHorse]

I think this is a downside to over planning. There are great novelists who do no planning at all. Quite a few actually. The telling of the story is the thing. The way it comes out, the pacing, what to tell, these are issues which are settled as you write, read, and rewrite. Put the plan in your mind but do not marry yourself to it.

I don't think one can plan out a good story or that outlines and such are at all beneficial to the reader. You are either a good enough writer or not a good enough writer. If the latter, reading not planning should be prescribed, and if the former, well ... good writers can suspend disbelief.

[MysteriousArtistX]

Well from what I can understand you intend for your game to just be a VN, since you said it's not an rpg/sim etc.
I think the basic factors you need to know are:

1) How long do you intend this game to be?
If the game is meant to be long then it makes it easier to adjust and fix your plot accordingly. You would be better able to spread said tension and avoid a non-stop action onslaught because there would be mild space for filler or, if you don't want any filler, a lighter but equally as important scene. If you intend for a medium length game you will probably have to trim a bit or alternative maybe expand those ideas into a sequel or side story, etc. However if this is to be a short game, with no intent of expansion, then you will probably have to go base level of understanding which means lots of cutting because short and complex tend not to mesh.

2) What can you categorize you're events and plot points as.
For example: You have your main plot, antagonist and protagonist. The antagonist has a deep back story which is pretty important but, in the whole of the story fairly expendable. You should keep note of these details so if you do have to cut, though you probably wont, you'll have an idea of what is can contribute more and vice-versa.

3) Is their away I can simplify this aspect?
If you have everything sorted out like in 2, you can look them over and determine whether there is an alternative way to present said point. Maybe something was originally seen as a big reveal, but you realize there is a way to reveal it in a less gaudy fashion that will be equally as impactful.

Now this next piece of advice I'm not too sure if it would apply to you (since my game is the type of big scale sim you had described) but I found this tactic helped me to cover my bases. It's kind of a result of 2 and 3.

When you have a lot of plot details and such that you want to get in, but don't want to become overbearing, I found conversations and plot pointing can really be a huge help. When I sorted out what was "truly important" to the plot and what was "important but expendable", I set story interaction so that you could 'play the game fairly straight forward and get it over all'. However if you want to truly understand the plot, know the lore, understand all the aspects of the characters, etc., you have that opportunity. I found this to be a fair enough compromise and solution so that you can have that complex plot, but their is a base level of shallow understanding. Kind of like a summary if you will, and have to dig to see the bigger picture.

Hope I helped, if I wasn't clear on anything I can attempt to clarify better

[Desu_Cake]

I've been in that situation all too often. I'm not sure if it'll work for you, but might it be possible to split it into smaller stories? Even if it's just while you're writing it, if you were to concentrate on a specific part that doesn't rely too heavily on the others, that way you could decide later on whether to keep going with the others then and there, or release them as a separate game/sequel/prequel, or cut them altogether.

Basically, just find a part of it that's a relatively simple/short and cohesive story, and concentrate on writing that. It's working for me at the moment.

[TrickWithAKnife]

If you have a huge amount of content you want to add but feel like it may be too much for the player/reader, then why not have some content as separate branches of the game, depending on choices they make - presuming it's a KN.
At least that way you'd have great replayability.

[curlymonster]

So many replies! I love opinions! :D <3<3<3<3 (Err... Ahem. Sorry about that.)

Of course, moderation is key, as it always is. Don't spend too much time on stuff that will never show up in the game.

I think this is a downside to over planning.

It is like you have no choice. I can instruct myself to put it away, to try to make a new story instead, something smaller? But my mind just keeps grating on this plot, constantly developing parts of the story, building it up, tearing it down, keeping something each time, trying a different version, getting a new idea, and so on...
Even if I would be able to think of a new plot, I'd make it too long, too complicated. I think too much. I show many symptoms of thinking too much. Thus, I often live with the downsides of over-thinking. XD'

And as to deciding what will and will not appear... well, what are you trying to say with this game? Why are you making it? 0:

I started brewing on it because I wanted to tell a story. I love stories. I love people's minds, and how they're different. I find it interesting to see both the minds of creators and their characters reflected in the game and how they interact with each other. I think I would enjoy to see what people think about my stories/games too. But even making something to express myself with is a goal on it's own.
But, you mean the theme of the story. Goddamn good question. I have to think. There might be too many themes. Maybe that's why? Then again, all the themes branches out from the original theme; Which revolves around dealing with the fear of death. As in disappearing from the world, completely. I'm talking about that fear you experience as a child, when you learn that one day you're going to die. Of course, most people have dealt with it today, but that fear is scary. Wait, another theme which is perhaps more recurrent and relevant, over different character's plots too, is their different reasons/motives to live, move on or do what they do. And again after that, there are smaller themes within how each character deals with their life.
This explains at least some of my problem, doesn't it? I have a super-broad theme + sprinkles of many other ones. I bet if I actually made the game/told the story, the theme wouldn't really be exactly what I just wrote. XD It still remains what exactly I should do with it though.

I don't think one can plan out a good story or that outlines and such are at all beneficial to the reader. You are either a good enough writer or not a good enough writer. If the latter, reading not planning should be prescribed, and if the former, well ... good writers can suspend disbelief.

I suspect the former. English is not my mother-language, but I've had it at school and like the language a lot. I sometimes get A's or B's on essay days I manage to write things. I know many words and could perhaps potentially write something nice, but...
Like with art, I stop myself when I feel something is not "good enough". It is not about how others view my art, or my skills. It happens when something is not right according to my over-critiquing brain. It is about the potential of that work. Which is not being realized at all, or given half enough of the justice it deserves. According to me. This in addition to my bad organization and concentration abilities, makes me end up finishing nothing. I can draw some sketches, hum/sing some melodies, know a few words, but I complete nothing. (I think. It feels that way. XD)
I have to work with reducing this self-criticizing to a point where I can actually produce material and get better by practice.
I don't want to be a "Jack of all talents". It feels so useless. >__<''

Well from what I can understand you intend for your game to just be a VN, since you said it's not an rpg/sim etc.

I meant to say that my problem didn't necessarily lay in the sheer amount of art/backgrounds/programming as a result of a complex game as a whole. Projects like that take a LOT of effort in because of the amount of content. In cases like that, people would suggest reducing the amount of locations, advice with how to make the desired battle system etc.. Games which are not "just a vn" can be very complicated in more than just plot. XD I've seen sereval threads give rough advice on this here and there. They are HARD to complete. But then again, the results are stunning. o:

1) How long do you intend this game to be?
If the game is meant to be long then it makes it easier to adjust and fix your plot accordingly.

I think it seems I will end up doing things more like the opposite: If the plot is meant to be long, then I will probably adjust and fix the game length accordingly.
Like mentioned earlier, I doubt this will be my first project. I should finish some other things first, I think. XD' (Then again, you never know.)

...The antagonist has a deep back story which is pretty important but, in the whole of the story fairly expendable. You should keep note of these details so if you do have to cut, though you probably wont, you'll have an idea of what is can contribute more and vice-versa.

Funny thing, when I think about who is the antagonist for the main character, it can wildly depend on which viewpoint he adapts. No one in the story is truly evil, they all have different views, opinions and motives, and act from this. If I had to pin it down to one, chances are, the player would never have guessed it at the start of the story. Another reason why I think this is so goddamn complicated.
I mean, all the drama/mental action is so complicated. I have barely scratched (and much less mentioned) the surface of how exactly should I build the world. I'm not sure if I should stage it in the real world, in an existing country; or in the real world, in a fictional country; or perhaps a fictional world quite similar to ours. I'll have to do research anyway, so I can just research at my own speed and consider what to do. Should probably go look for/make a post asking about it somewhere.

If you have a huge amount of content you want to add but feel like it may be too much for the player/reader, then why not have some content as separate branches of the game, depending on choices they make - presuming it's a KN.
At least that way you'd have great replayability.

I've been purposefully vague at how I would tell this story. As a vn seems like a good idea because:
1. I love stories, but I like them best when they are told with more than just text. (Simple example: Pick two: Art, Music, Text) In VN's you have the possibility to pick all three.
2. One can convey information in a lot of weird ways.
3. I've heard of both this forum and ren'py, which helps make this medium easier to learn.
4. I like vn's. :)

I'm impressed at how many replies I got so quickly! There's a lot of good advice too. Thank you everyone! :'D
It also seems I'm not the only one having this issue. Many of you suggest things like spreading information into different branches, or even different games. Which is probably one of the better solutions.
As things seem now, I would have to focus on what is strictly necessary to the main plot, how and which order to place the reveals in order to balance things the best, and from there on determine how to cram the remaining information into the game, somewhere.
It could drop a lot of hints/foreshadowing in the endings of shorter branches, (perhaps a few, or only one longer branch, if I must,) alternative endings and on second replays or something. There are many places to hide information, I must just determine where and how I should do it...
I'll have to give it some more thought, play with these ideas a little. XD

Whoa what a long post .__.

[ghostbunnies]

And as to deciding what will and will not appear... well, what are you trying to say with this game? Why are you making it? 0:

But, you mean the theme of the story. Goddamn good question. I have to think. There might be too many themes. Maybe that's why?

[...] This explains at least some of my problem, doesn't it? I have a super-broad theme + sprinkles of many other ones. I bet if I actually made the game/told the story, the theme wouldn't really be exactly what I just wrote. XD It still remains what exactly I should do with it though.

Ah, themes... They're a bit squishy and not so good for building structure. Maybe you should focus on more solid pieces like actions and events? Instead of what you want to say, look at how you're going to show it. This might be helpful to you: http://www.how-to-write-a-book-now.com/story-goal.html

[cuttlefish]

...might it be possible to split it into smaller stories? Even if it's just while you're writing it, if you were to concentrate on a specific part that doesn't rely too heavily on the others, that way you could decide later on whether to keep going with the others then and there, or release them as a separate game/sequel/prequel, or cut them altogether.

I would go with this advice.

Basically, you could make episodes or the first, second, third book type of series. This way, you don't have to cut anything out. It would be complicated to include all the details into the first book of a series, but I think it would be more manageable if you spread the information out.

For the tension/atmosphere question, I guess you could have breaks where the player goes off to think about what they've just learned? You could have fluff moments during these parts before the plot becomes serious again. I would not water down the plot per se, but as I've said before you don't have to give every detail from the get-go.

[junna]

I watched the making of LotR and LotR documentaries a bit too much but I remember a few things that they said about creating the movies (YAY for epics)

see LotR has a LOT going on at the same time in the book but for a movie, they would need to cut down a LOT of the stuff to fit in the audience that haven't read the book, time constraint etc.

So they chose the main themes of the books for each movie:
FotR was all about the coming together of the fellowship and the taste of the hurdles they must face in order to deliver the One Ring. AND also introduce the idea of the wickedness of this Ring of Power. This movie is light in contrast to the rest of the series.

TTT was about the breaking of the fellowship and how they continue on towards reaching their goal and the new difficulties they face. 2nd Movie is darker and a bit more sinister.

RotK was about the return of the fellowship and the triumph (journey towards triumph) of good over evil despite all the adversity. This movie is a mixture of power and hope even when all hope is almost lost...

So...you could create a whole world! but to tell a story effectively, you can give snapshots and short explanations to the readers/watchers about this world of yours.
=.= I hope I made sense.

[dramspringfeald]

The answer is yes... oh god yes.

Here's how to fix it. ask yourself

Does this add to the story?
Does this Move the story along?
What does my Beta think?

If the answer it yes to all 3, then keep it if it's No or Meh to even one of the questions then scrap it or fix it.