A VN contest??

[mokenju1]

Hi,

Now that I'm patiently waiting for NaNoRenO to start ( or not so patiently...*don't start writing the script, don't start writing the script* mantra) I've been thinking that maybe it could be good for the motivation of the game-makers and the progressive increase of the quality of the games, that we had a contest like the mags ( the monthly awards of the Adventure Game Studio). Maybe one contest every month will be too much, but a year award would be accessible to everyone.

It could be a part of NaNoRenO or something independent, and we could have different awards like "best concept", "best art", "best script" or "most original concept" that could be delivered with the votes of the whole community. At the mags the winner of the award is who makes the specific rules for the next competition, that is quite nice and like the rules are very general (like you have to include a valentine gift in your game, for example) the games can be very different and you have the advantage to have some "idea" to boost your inspiration. But it could be done without that kind of specific rules, of course.

People could use ren'py or other engines like Blade to include all the creators of visual novels.

But I suppose that if NaNoRenO is a personal challenge and not a competition maybe it's because people prefere it to be that way. Sorry if it has been discussed before.

[DaFool]

I'll wait till after the 100th Ren'Py game mark before considering something like this.

It's a good idea, but there are so few games so far, it will seem like people patting themselves on the back. Which doesn't sound too humble at all. Plus, you'd have to deal with egos, since there are quite some people making very different genres and variants of games. Name any criteria for judging, and someone's ego immediately comes to mind.

There will come a time when there will be the equivalent of Academy Awards for visual novels, but the amateur English-language VN boom is just starting...many people are still on their first projects.

For me, a main accomplishment factor will be to make something low-budget AND commercial-scale AND still be innovative and experimental AND have decent art, music, story, and gameplay.

But if in having those specific awards, you would officially endorse something like The Great English Visual Novel Race, I'm with you

[mokenju1]

100th Ren'py games... umm.. So we have 34 and after NaNoRenO we will have *counts with her fingers* 49 games so... with 2 or 3 years more... ok, ok... I get the point, but other engines could participate too so...

I'm so envious of the ags community with so many games .

And I officially endorse The Great English Visual Novel Race, although I doubt I could ever do myself a low budget game who could compete with a commercial release. But I'm rooting for all the game creators here who I'm sure that have the skills to do so .

[mikey]

Well, this should IMO simply stay a help and support forum for those who want to make their own games.

I don't really want to compete or race anyone. Or give an award to someone I helped, or someone who helped me, or a friend. It doesn't feel right.

Still, I don't have a particular problem with awards or competitions. But I'm not really the type to do it in this area.

[PyTom]

I dislike the idea of a contest. Right now, we have a very good community here, and I'd hate to change that. I think part of the reason why we all get along so well is that we're not in competition with each other. If I make a game*, and you make a game, and they're both good, then that's good, there are now two games. I worry that if we're contest-oriented (especially if awards are involved), then people might hold back in the hopes of gaining a competitive advantage. That worries me.

There's also the problem that games might be intended to win the contest, rather than being the author's vision.

I have been mulling over the idea that we might have some sort of "Featured Games" process, in which the best games could be recognized by the community. I'm still worried that this could bruise egos, especially in a community where 1-2 games a year is alot. ("Why isn't my game featured? I worked on it for a year!")

Then there's differing opinions as to what should be recognized. I think mikey and I probably would disagree as to the importance of production values to the process, for example. And that's fine, since we're all entitled to our own opinions, and to like and dislike different things. It's not clear that we need processes that serve mostly to highlight these differences, however.

* Yeah, like I make games.

[Jake]

Firstly, I'm not sure I could back an idea that explicitly 'endorses the Great English Visual Novel Race', because I think it's a silly agenda to push. What does it even mean? It's a reference to a kind-of-silly cultural phenomenon that in this context is almost self-parodying, and I fear it could well have a negative effect on the OEL VN community as people aspire only to heights so lofty that they don't really know what they are and fail to produce anything. And... this kind of thing could go the same way.

The thing that this most makes me think of (and I'm sure the time of year isn't really a coincidence) is the Oscars, an annual 'best cinematography in a VN' award or whatever could be... interesting. The real question would be 'what is the point'? If it's just to make people feel good about themselves, I don't see it as necessary, because - well, making a small set of people feel good about themselves naturally excludes everyone else, and this is probably still a little too niche an interest to be putting people off participating. Such a thing could end up persuading people to create media specifically with the aim of winning such an award - one example is the movie Road to Perdition, which a lot of people have criticised, saying it's just a vehicle to check all of the 'artsy' boxes, that it's specifically cynically designed to appeal to Academy judges. (On the other side of the coin, I really enjoyed Road to Perdition - maybe I'm just a pretentious beret-wearing art student at heart.) One function of the Oscars is that I can confidently get out a movie that won 'Best Motion Picture' and be guaranteed that it won't be an utter pile of tripe, but we get fairly decent discussion around here every time someone releases something anyway, if I hold off a day or so for the first-play responses I can usually tell which ones are likely to interest me pretty well.

On the other hand, somebody still made Garfield II, which suggests to me that the Oscars don't stop people who aren't going to win Oscars from making movies.



I guess I'd like to see some of the sub-discipline things - like cinematography - which can go into making a VN but don't have to - get some more attention, but I don't know... I wouldn't like to come out entirely against the idea, but I'd worry that it might have a negative impact, I guess.

[ShiraiJunichi]

* Yeah, like I make games.

You made Moonlight Walks... Are you not planning on ever making anything else?

I agree that a contest isn't a very good idea right now. I think people here make games to see their ideas come to fruition- not to win a prize.

The ego is a big thing to worry about, but I've always been a bit in favor of the idea of rating the games. Perhaps we could ask game makers to honestly rate their own games. Of course, this would produce somewhat unreliable results, and so may not be worth the trouble.

[PyTom]

You made Moonlight Walks... Are you not planning on ever making anything else?

I've had several ideas... but nothing that gave me the same sort of motivation as MW, which sort of sprung fully-formed into my head one day.

Right now, when it comes to game-making, I'm waiting for a similar degree of inspiration to come around again. Until then, I participate vicariously in game-making by developing Ren'Py. (And by doing custom programming for some games... and I did alot of the integration work for Broken Hearted, including all of the music assignment.)

[pheriannath]

Perhaps we could ask game makers to honestly rate their own games. Of course, this would produce somewhat unreliable results, and so may not be worth the trouble.

It's really hard to be honest with your own game, especially if you don't have a benchmark to rate it against - and even then it's a rather grey area. Who's to say what's good and what isn't?

[mikey]

Then there's differing opinions as to what should be recognized. I think mikey and I probably would disagree as to the importance of production values to the process, for example. And that's fine, since we're all entitled to our own opinions, and to like and dislike different things. It's not clear that we need processes that serve mostly to highlight these differences, however.

... especially when I think we're using the differences positively. I will usually encourage the creation of games that I like, and others will support games and styles they like - crucially though, apart from the normal dose of constructive criticism, we don't go and condemn other styles or games we don't like, we even help those who make games that aren't our style.

Firstly, I'm not sure I could back an idea that explicitly 'endorses the Great English Visual Novel Race', because I think it's a silly agenda to push. What does it even mean? It's a reference to a kind-of-silly cultural phenomenon that in this context is almost self-parodying, and I fear it could well have a negative effect on the OEL VN community as people aspire only to heights so lofty that they don't really know what they are and fail to produce anything. And... this kind of thing could go the same way.

The whole idea of the great English VN is not guaranteed to work, either.

Because, suppose Type-Moon or stage-nana never existed and THIS community would make Tsukihime and Narcissu - do you think it would be so popular? With those graphics, those philosophies? At the very least, it's debatable - there's much more to what makes a work popular and praised than just the work itself.

[mokenju1]

It's really hard to be honest with your own game, especially if you don't have a benchmark to rate it against - and even then it's a rather grey area. Who's to say what's good and what isn't?[/quote]

Well, like Jake said talking about the Oscars could be applied here (I really loved Road to Perdition) . A film that wins the best film award is "always" a good film, maybe it's not the best film but you are not going to see Ace Ventura 2 or The Flinstones nominated to this. The award is in that case a guarantee that you are going to see something valuable. When you play a game you know if you are enjoying it or not and if it has good music or beautiful art.

I have listened some people say that "The Longest Journey" is one of the best adventure games of the history and other people say it's boring and has too much text. But the thing is, it's a good game. You can say you don't like it, because your tastes are different but nobody would say it is crap. Because we have some standards that are quite the same for everyone.

But I really understand the point of "preserve" the good atmosphere of this community. Maybe I was too naive to think that people can compete while helping the others, but I can see also the good side of the ego. An artist (or creator) wants his art to be noticed by the others, he doesn't create for himself because he could create and don't show his art to anyone, but that hardly happens. That's because of the ego and the pride. A healthy contest where all the people do their best because they want to be the "number one" at something is really such a bad thing?.

[mikey]

A healthly competition where all the people do their best because they want to be the "number one" at something is really such a bad thing?.

It isn't. But this is only good in areas where results are quantifiable, where it's clear what's good or bad.

Yes, the Longest Journey example was good - you can like it, and not like it, but you still have respect for it. It has something that all people can see as positive.

The problem is then, that such a viewpoint means that the more experimental games are discouraged - you'll end up making a high production-value game, or a very polished one just to be "safe". And the Longest Journey is a "safe" game. If you buy it, you know it's worth the money. But if it doesn't appeal to you, what's the point?

[mokenju1]

The problem is then, that such a viewpoint means that the more experimental games are discouraged - you'll end up making a high production-value game, or a very polished one just to be "safe". And the Longest Journey is a "safe" game. If you buy it, you know it's worth the money. But if it doesn't appeal to you, what's the point?[/quote]

Well, I didn't say that The Longest Journey was a good game because it has beautiful backgrounds or great voice acting... that would qualify any game with high production values as a "good game". The Longest Journey has a spirit that you can like or not, but is there. A kind of... feeling. It's something I didn't notice playing for example the last Broken Sword. It's expensive and has a lot of work behind it?. Sure. But it's empty. But I also know that maybe other people liked it so that leaves me in a bad position at this debate.

In the case of the Oscars, I don't believe a great film like Monster's Ball was created to be an Oscar winner but it was nominated. It's a very hard film with long, uncensored sex scenes... that's not exactly what a producer wants, he is looking for a product that can be sold to the widest range of audience... but that film was made, after all. And was nominated, after all. So maybe there is something that is not calculated, something that is not related to high production values or "what-I-have-to-do-to-get-the-award" . It depends mostly in who is deciding. If we would made a contest where innovative projects were equally judged with more conservative projects that would help to motivate everyone. I'm not saying that this is an easy thing to do...

[papillon]

I don't think the community is large enough for contests yet, both in terms of the number of games that would be entered and in terms of the number of people that would come and cast votes.

Take a look at the IFComp. There's a big plate of games and a bunch of voters and special prizes for things like the most controversial game (so if people either LOVE you or HATE you, you may not win, but you will be recognised).

And generally, even 'losers' are happy with having been in the comp and gotten this huge amount of attention and feedback and reviews on their work.

If we had a small contest here and ended up with three games and ten people voting on them, all of whom know each other - I think the person in place #3 would be a lot more likely to feel upset about the result.

(I've intentionally entered IFComp games I knew had NO chance of scoring highly, but was thrilled when one or two people really liked what I was doing, even if the other 200 strangers didn't )

[frumplstlskn]

I love a good competition. It always drives me to do more. I don't have much personal motivation and I can't accomplish goals easily because I get distracted too easily and procrastinate too much. Rewards are always good motivators. Maybe give a small award or reward to every group who finishes NaNoRenO? That way it's not a competition and everyone who finished is recognized equally.