Points of View in a Visual Novel

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Coren
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Points of View in a Visual Novel

#1 Post by Coren »

Most novels tend to be in third-person, due to the need for description. After all, if you write your novel in first-person and try to add in too many descriptions, you run the risk of having your protagonist sound highly obsessive-compulsive.

Is that why most VNs are in first-person, then, due to the reduced need for scenery descriptions and character descriptions and stuff? Would you personally rather play a first-person VN or a third-person limited one?

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Re: Points of View in a Visual Novel

#2 Post by Ryue »

I think that third description is really due to the need for descriptions. With visual novels that need is no longer there as the descriptions are replaced by the images
(BG/sprite/CG) and thus it is possible to write in first person.
Additionally ppl tend to get more taken in by action if it sounds like they are right in the middle of it (what first person is a bit better at than third person).

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Re: Points of View in a Visual Novel

#3 Post by Maelstrom-Fenrir »

The reason most VN or even KN are First POV, is because they want you to feel like you are the character. Also it allows for more of a controlled identity, and you can get to know/control the protagonist in a way that can't really be done in 3rd POV.

There are however things that restrict you when doing 1st POV.

Only scenes and moments with the POV character can be shown, which can become a problem as it then can seem like the whole world in the vn revolves around the POV character.

Where as 3rd POV, allows a little more leeway as you can show some scenes without that POV character and can then see other sides of some of the characters or even then how the main POV character, or other characters, appears to others, since in 1st POV everything is how the main POV sees things, 3rd POV can allow for a whole different take on the same character as you can see sides to them that they don't show to the main POV character or even how other characters appear, since you are looking through other people's eyes.

All in all, I think it depends on the story and what type of approach you want. Both have advantages and disadvantages.

If written correctly I prefer 1st POV, but if written poorly it will make me drop a story faster than a hot potato.

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Re: Points of View in a Visual Novel

#4 Post by papillon »

There are however things that restrict you when doing 1st POV.

Only scenes and moments with the POV character can be shown, which can become a problem as it then can seem like the whole world in the vn revolves around the POV character.
Of course, there are games that are mostly in first-person that do special "interludes" in other perspectives, but this requires careful balancing as well as visual signposting to be sure the player understands what's happening when you shift modes.

Most people will accept two intertwining stories, or a little cutaway at the start of every chapter. Start frantically shuffling from perspective to perspective all the time and the reader will get confused or annoyed.

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Re: Points of View in a Visual Novel

#5 Post by SundownKid »

Most visual novels are in first-person because the player is "controlling" a single character, as it were, similar to a video game being in first person. Putting what the other characters are thinking directly into the narrative makes it difficult to roleplay as that character, and makes the story in general less visceral and intense. The point of having visuals is for it to better seem like you are "experiencing" it versus being a passive viewer, and first-person works for that. It would probably be easier in a kinetic novel where you don't necessarily have choices, but it would read more like a novel given visuals than a visual novel.

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Re: Points of View in a Visual Novel

#6 Post by madoran »

First person is more immersive by nature, so I tend to prefer this.

Not all VNs need to be immersive though, so when it's not the case, third person may suffice.

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Re: Points of View in a Visual Novel

#7 Post by trooper6 »

I'm working on my first VN, but coming out of a long time being a gamemaster for various RPGs. And then I read lots of choose your own adventure novels back in the 80s...so...my VN is in 2nd person. This models what I do as a GM. I get immersion of my players when I address them as you, but the narrator can also give descriptions. Best of both worlds! Though I imagine I'd go 1st person for a noir/pulp VN.
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Re: Points of View in a Visual Novel

#8 Post by Laniessa »

trooper6 wrote:I'm working on my first VN, but coming out of a long time being a gamemaster for various RPGs. And then I read lots of choose your own adventure novels back in the 80s...so...my VN is in 2nd person. This models what I do as a GM. I get immersion of my players when I address them as you, but the narrator can also give descriptions. Best of both worlds! Though I imagine I'd go 1st person for a noir/pulp VN.
I actually really like second-person stories with blank-slate protagonists! If I ever make a VN with the immersion being the focus, I'd probably pick 2nd person.


3rd person in visual novels makes it feel like you're watching a skit from behind the screen, which I don't dislike, but having a personal 1st person shows more of the main character and makes it more fun, so I guess it depends on the feel you want?

EDIT: (18 Aug) Whoops, bad wording! I didn't mean I thought you made blank-slate protagonists, just that I liked 2nd person, and if it's blank-slate, it's more interesting, for me. Kinda. But either way, I didn't mean blank-slate, but rather, the silent protagonist, though I'm not sure if you prefer those anyway. I do like having choices over how the MC acts though, so maybe I did mean that. I was thinking mainly of the Persona 3/4 games, where the main character has an image, has a slight voice (P3 male protag is a bit quiet and listens well, P3 female protag is energetic and open, and I only watched P4 anime, so I can't say for that game), even if they don't have dialogue, and everything is dictated with 'you did something'. (This 2nd person actually shows emotions too, but I can't pinpoint a specific place. 'You feel shocked at this new revelation,' etc. etc. I should be a bit more careful when quoting posts next time.
Last edited by Laniessa on Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Points of View in a Visual Novel

#9 Post by trooper6 »

My VN is second person...but not a blank slate. I wanted to put the players into the shoes of an MC who is (hopefully) not anything like them. I hoping there may be a bit of discomfort with sitting inside someone who has not been the nicest of people...who at the least is arrogant and who at worst? Well, is a bad person. A question I think is interesting is, if you are controlling someone who hasn't been a good person, what sort of choices do you make from him. Do you have him continue on with that path? Do you continue on with that path because deliberately...or out of non-malicious disregard? What is a good ending, what is a bad ending when the MC has been a jerk? Do you as a player want to support this MC to the best of your ability? Or do you want to sabotage him? Can people change? Do they deserve second chances?

Anyway...questions like that! So...no blank slate. :)
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Re: Points of View in a Visual Novel

#10 Post by Semienigma »

I have a Question, is it okay to tell a vn In first person but have the Character have their own personality? I mean not have the character be just someone the player is, but someone the play sees the world through but get to discover as much about him as the rest of the characters. Its what I want to do with the VNs I'm looking to make. I haven't played that many so I'm not sure how this goes .
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Re: Points of View in a Visual Novel

#11 Post by trooper6 »

I think you can do whatever you want to. Try new things. Don't force yourself to follow some path you don't want to do just because it has always been done. The key, I think, is to just do what you do well.
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Re: Points of View in a Visual Novel

#12 Post by Semienigma »

trooper6 wrote:I think you can do whatever you want to. Try new things. Don't force yourself to follow some path you don't want to do just because it has always been done. The key, I think, is to just do what you do well.
ya got a point there. I personally would love to play a VN when you find out about the MC more so than there being nothing to them. Not to say I don't also like self insert styles XD I was just wondering if such a thing was not awkward.
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Re: Points of View in a Visual Novel

#13 Post by Destiny »

Actually, all my games (be it serious or test games) are made in first person up till now with just one exception, where a narrator excists (so it is still somewhat first person, since you listen to him telling the story?).

Maybe it is because I study literature and thus know of the psychology behind the different narrators (the all-seeing narrator, the You-narrator and the me-narrator), but I feel often uncomfortable with a third person view, simply, because I actually dislike the fact, that there is someone or something, that sees all, knows all, including the thoughts of everyone, the past and the future.
For some stories, it is necessary like this (for example, if you want to make it more exciting, by showing what happens simultanous at the other end of the world), but I usually prefer getting the informations out of one persons head.
Especially with romance or scary games, I want it to be in First Person, simply because I am supposed to emphazise with the character and that doesn't really work with third view.
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Re: Points of View in a Visual Novel

#14 Post by Ryue »

One thing I have to add here though in regards to novel and VN comparison:
Even though novels are written in third person, there is a specific type of novel that is written in 1st person and that one is nearer to vn's (the vn's with choices that is) than
normal novels:

"Build your own adventure" type of novels (normally I would just call them sort of RPGs, but I've read there are even some out that are have absolutely no RPG parts in them,
and instead are just "read the novel how you think it should go")

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Re: Points of View in a Visual Novel

#15 Post by Elmiwisa »

I think that it is a bit simplistic to distinguish between just 1st and 3rd person. There are a lot of way to use these point of view, and they are so vastly different that they suit very different kind of VN:

-1st person-intimate: the player get to see every intimate details about the MC, great for any VN where it is great to know what the MC think and feel, such as romance, suspense, and horror.
-1st person-concealing: the opposite direction, this is great when you want to hide as much details as possible about the MC, since you are spared from describing the MC. I am not sure what genre would it suit for, it is probably rather story-specific: for example a sci-fi twist "Wait, so I am an AI copy of the real person that died 1000 years ago?" would be best pulled off if the MC is never described to be consisting of a monitor and a keyboard.
-1st person-irrelevant: the MC play no actual role in the story, and is just an outside observer. Probably best in a KN (since you are not supposed to influence the plot), and I think it is best suit for stories with multiple sides and you want a neutral point of view that still include thought and feelings.
Now, it might feel like it is hard to describe the MC in 1st person without sounding narcissist, but there are a lot of ways to deal with it:
-Use CG: it is very normal for CG to include the MC even in 1st person. Put it right at the start of the game if you need to, since whatever happen at the start of the game is always going to be an important event anyway.
-Side sprite: this allow you to show the MC's emotion without having to describe it explicitly.
-Other character: let the MC have someone close enough to comment on the way the MC act; make it sounds reasonable for them to comment on it. For example, the MC might had just had a bad day, allowing her roommate to both comment on: how she normally act, and how is she acting today.
-PoV prologue: just flat out use a different PoV to describe the MC altogether. Put that into an (perhaps optional) prologue. This PoV can be anything you need to, such as 3rd person, or 1st person from another character. It is quite common for novel to have a different PoV in the prologue, especially in fantasy/scifi, since you usually need to infodump all the backstory in, and thus you need a knowledgable PoV, even if the MC is fish out of the water.
Another problem with 1st person is to describe stuff that the MC can't know but the reader should. There are plenty of easy way:
-In fantasy/scifi setting, use divination/scrying/camera/telepath/psychic/etc.
-If the story is written in past tense, and the MC will learn about the information later (perhaps even after the story ended), you can just add "I didn't know it back then, but turn out...."
-Also, you can try some other slightly more jarring method, such as "I can feel it happen. I feel it so strongly it must be true" or "That dream feel too real" as a way to notify the audience of what happen, without giving the MC concrete details.
-Alternatively, perhaps try giving the MC a rather oblivious personality, while giving out enough hint that enough to for the reader to figure out. For example, you can make a girl hug the paranoid MC while crying to hint at her feeling toward him, while making the MC think that the girl is trying to pickpocket/attack him.
-Finally, you can always have more than 1 PoV, if you don't mind losing the self-insertion aspect.

As for 3rd person, I think it is less suitable for VN except for KN, since your choice are supposed to influence the story. But still, I think it can still be pulled off:
-3rd person-intimate: this is almost like 1st person version, since the main difference is that you use 3rd person pronoun instead of 1st person, and this means you can still describe the MC's thought and feeling. This make it easier to describe the character from outside, and make it only slightly harder to show distorted subjective view (such as delusion/illusion) and subtle non-explicit opinion (for example, in 1st person you could put "Cute Boy" into the who-window on the dialogue box to show what the MC think about the character, but if you do that in 3rd person it just means that that character is not important enough to get a name). Because this is so similar to 1st person-intimate, it works just as well in the same situation.
-3rd person-outsider: the VN basically no longer have an MC. You no longer need an excuse to say why the reader get to see certain information that no characters know, but you won't be able to see people's thought and opinion; this also means it is pretty much impossible to make opinionated comment without sounding like the author is speaking directly. I can't imagine how this could be use in a VN with plot-critical choice though, so KN seems like the only way to use this.
-3rd person-god: you know everything, even all character's thought and opinion, as well as stuff no characters know. I think this is hard to use, and probably best reserved for dark KN where everyone is a complete unsympathetic jerk.

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