Game Makers! I'm curious? What grinds your gears???

[Auro-Cyanide]

I'm a huge hypocrite though. My game is set mostly in Japan, has mostly Japanese characters, and has plenty of Japanese words in it.

I totally understand you when you say it's really annoying for a weeaboo to call their characters Uzumaki Ichigo-kun-chan-sama or something, but if you just skim over a WiP thread and see Japanese names, will you automatically just go 'nope, story must suck'? You wouldn't be able to tell if the person is a fangirl/boy who has never heard of any anime besides Naruto, Bleach and One Piece, or if the person has spent years studying the culture of Japan and learning the language. Personally, I like games set in Japan if they're culturally and historically accurate, because that shows the people know what they're doing/they're trying, since they spent time researching it

Yes, I'll skip it if I see anything Japanese is a WiP topic, except in special cases, like the creator is Japanese themselves. Doesn't matter how wonderful the art or writing is, I'm not going to play a game that annoys me. Obviously the creator(s) didn't read this thread.

Seeing people who have never stepped foot in Japan for lomger than three days trying to give history lessons on Japan seems really insulting.

But lets face it, most games with Japanese characters here are just throwing them in because that's what they like, and they don't really care that it annoys some people. Everyone thinks their project is special. Perhaps they are special. I won't know because I just saw one of your characters is Misa Yagami, cute but naive high school student, thought "another damn weeaboo high school dating game" and closed the topic forever.

People always justify it with "I really like anything Japanese". Tell me about YOUR culture. That's the one you know, and that's the one you can talk about in depth, and have it feel real.

So people shouldn't write historical fiction because they weren't alive during that period either?

While I can understand a certain knee-jerk reaction to this because a lot of things are spurred on by passed on popular culture rather than the culture itself (but frankly you can get that with anything, from vampires to survival horror), I feel it would be unwarranted to totally write off a section of fiction from certain groups of people. It's not like they are trying to pass it off as non-fiction, it's fiction. And while it may not be 'authentic' it can reveal an outsider's perception, which is just as interesting. At the end of the day, there is always a certain element of fantasy in fiction. An interest in Japan is but one of them.

[Rinrinnya]

I'm not saying you can't write a story set somewhere else from where you live or grew up, but it's always going to feel a bit imitation. And I weep at the possibilities for cool stories when I see someone grew up somewhere fascinating - and they are going to set their story in a Japanese high school rather than one like their own school.

Sometimes, a Japanese high school is more fitting, anyway.

And maybe it's just me, but even when someone really does their research, things still seem off, partly because the author unintentionally, or intentionally draws attention to their research. They seem to go through a checklist of showing all culturally relevant details, almost like "Look! I know about these things!". Or they draw more attention to, or put way more emphasis on something that natives of that culture would ignore.

Haha, that's just bad writing skills Not everyone does such things. You people really need to not assume everything is the same and give some things a chance more often.

On-topic and related:
- When game-makers name their game in Japanese. This ticks me off to no end. It makes the game almost impossible to remember (and I speak and write some basic Japanese) because it doesn't give me a "coat-hook" to hang the memories of the game on. It ticks me off even when Japanese game-makers do it if they are releasing the game in English to an English audience. You translated the rest of the game! Translate the freaking title! I end up with two warring titles in my head - I personally translate the title to English and remember it that way, but then I fail to recognize the game is being talked about when the Japanese title is used.

Is it really hard for people to remember a few odd syllables put together? O.o I admit I forget really long Japanese titles, but I never knew this peeved some people. Taking note!

[TrickWithAKnife]

You wouldn't be able to tell if the creator is Japanese themselves by simply skimming a thread...

Seeing if someone likes the culture, I really don't see how it's insulting. Sure, it would be just bad storytelling if they gave a whole history lesson of Japan, but just putting it into their story doesn't affect how good or bad their writing should be. It's just usually the people who do that are weeaboos lol.

And what if, just maybe, someone doesn't like the culture they live in? What if they like Japan so much, they know more about Japanese culture than their own? Then it would be better for them to talk in depth about a culture they have a passion for studying. Ponder that.

I've spent every moment of the last 5 years surrounded almost exclusively by Japanese people. I spend all day at work talking with Japanese people, and then go home to my Japanese wife.
I can spot a weeaboo at 100 paces. And they are everywhere.
Nothing wrong with liking Japan or anything Japanese, but acting like they know Japanese culture? They don't know anything. Hell, I've just mentioned my history with Japan, and Id never be so blatantly arrogant to presume I know more than what's on the surface.

Yes, I'm making a game partially set in Japan, but it's from the perspective of a foreigner in Japan who is trying to find their place in this culture. Every foreigner who lives in Japan for a while goes through this, and it's hard. It's really hard, and many people can't handle it, and run away to their home countries.

I studied about Japan, it's people, culture and language for hours every day for almost a year before coming Japan, mostly with help from Japanese people that knew. And you know what I realized on my first day in Tokyo? I didn't really know anything.

What kind of bloated ego is required for a person to read a few books, watch a couple of movies, maybe know one or two Japanese people, and think they really know the culture?
It's like a high school student trying to write a story about war, and the effects it has on students. You can't possibly know it because you haven't suffered through it.

So, you say I should ponder it. Well I have. For every moment of the last 5 years.
Perhaps I need to watch some One Piece, call everyone "chan" or "kun", and eat everything with chopsticks. Apparently that's the way to do it.

If you can't think of an interesting story without trying to force in elements from something g you know very little about, then you may need to rethink your skills as a writer. Ouch.

[Blue Lemma]

@Auro: I think the difference between historical fiction and putting students in Japan "just because" is that a lot of things were different in history which are likely to change the whole premise and logic of the story. Making something arbitrarily in Japan, on the other hand, doesn't really change anything except names and uniforms most of the time. It often feels gratuitous for no real gain.

My original vision for my visual novel world was for it to be a Japanese-American world (as I'm Japanese-American, and I admit I was caught up in the J-pop influence a lot.) But when I realized people would just see it as wannabe Japanese-ism, I ditched it. The JA-ness isn't more important than the entertainment and story, so no sense leaving it to distract people. No Japanese-Americans in my current story (I'm cast out of my own story due to weeaboo judgment ;_; )

[Auro-Cyanide]

@Auro: I think the difference between historical fiction and putting students in Japan "just because" is that a lot of things were different in history which are likely to change the whole premise and logic of the story. Making something arbitrarily in Japan, on the other hand, doesn't really change anything except names and uniforms most of the time. It often feels gratuitous for no real gain.

My original vision for my visual novel world was for it to be a Japanese-American world (as I'm Japanese-American.) But when I realized people would just see it as wannabe Japanese-ism, I ditched it. The JA-ness isn't more important than the entertainment and story, so no sense leaving it to distract people. No Japanese-Americans in my current story (I'm cast out of my own story due to weeaboo judgment ;_; )

I think the main point here is that there is a difference between doing something 'just because' and doing something with thought and reason. And that goes with everything, not just Japan. You arbitrarily do anything and there is a very good chance it's going to seem off or stuck on. That's just the way it is. Twilight's vampires sparkling? Good example.

I don't think it's a good idea to restrict things to only what you yourself has personally experienced. Writing gay characters? Sorry, you're straight. Fantasy and Sci-fi? Sorry, doesn't exist. Wanting to write what you are interested in? Sorry, you were born in the wrong country. Promote research, logical thinking and good writing, not biases based on what people are.

[TrickWithAKnife]

I seem to have riled up a lot of people. I'm not going to apologise for it because I got questioned on my view, and I'll generally reply to direct queries.

I will say this though - make the game that you want to make. Be aware that some things may be huge turn-offs for some people, but it's impossible to make everyone happy.
I wouldn't want to stop anyone from making their game, regardless of the setting. In fact, I encourage you to. But there are certain elements that I will personally avoid, especially if there is no logical reason for it except "that's what everyone else is doing, so it must be popular".

But, if you are going to set your game in Japan, or have Japanese characters, please at least ask yourself these questions:

• Could this be set anywhere else?
• Do I actually know the setting that I'm writing about?
• Do I want to do something different, or a very slight variation of something that already exists?

[Blue Lemma]

I agree that people shouldn't be confined to writing about things they've personally experienced. We would be out a lot of types of stories.

Gratuitous Japan settings just rub me wrong for some reason nowadays. If there's a decent reason for it, or the writer has experience with it, it's okay, but when the default for a lot of projects is Japan because... well... Japan, I usually go meh :/

[Obscura]

I was pretty much going to step in and comment but it seems Auro already articulated it much better than I could.

I'm not entirely crazy about HS Japanese themed-VNs either (for no other reason than the fact there are so many of them), but it's not really very hard to write something and get somebody living in that culture to give you feedback and tell you where you're off/what you need to fix.

If you have a genuine interest in Japanese settings and getting things right, you'll make the effort to research and get feedback from the experts.

Just ask all the poor guys I've grilled with embarrassing questions for my game. I can go ahead and post the comments I've gotten asking if I'm really a gay man masquerading as a woman, or comments from men who were initially skeptical but were won over by the content of the demo. Certainly there are things I'm doing differently and are probably still off because I've never been a gay guy, but that's why I try to make maximum use of consultants and beta testers.

[Blue Lemma]

Come on, Obscura, we all know you're a gay man masquerading as a gay woman masquerading as a straight man masquerading as a gay man masquerading as a woman!

But back on the original topic, a lot of things in game-making these days really grind my gears:

* People thinking game characters' thoughts are the game creators' thoughts - Example: If I have a racist character, I must be racist.

* People thinking character types convey what the creators think of certain people - Example: If I have an airhead female character, I must think females are airheads.

* People leaving short, unhelpful one-liner comments (usually with spelling errors to boot) - Example: "you're game sucks"

* Increasing censorship from computer companies - Example: Apple appointing themselves the Morality Police and arbitrary enforcement of policy, other companies following suit

* Bizarro-land standards on sex and violence - Example: Having a game with tons of killing and maiming is A-ok, but something with *gasp* nudity? Sex? OMG!! How depraved and evil! Think about the children~ (who aren't supposed to be playing anyway!)

* Cries of sexism/racism/homophobia/every other -ism or -phobia from people when there isn't any except in their heads - Example: This is why every man on a TV commercial has to be an absolute moron compared to a woman in the same commercial. Because if we had the woman ever be the moron, people would say "OMG SEXIST!!!!! WHAT IS THAT COMPANY TRYING TO IMPLY?!!!11" Call it "Homer Simpson Syndrome." This grinds me in game making because I have to question every little thing every character who isn't a White male does to make sure it's not too un-PC or has a balance (and I don't mean "Personal Computer.") Don't even *think* about including a minority-group member in your game that's portrayed in any negative way whatsoever, unless you are a member of that minority group yourself (see 2nd bullet point.) White dudes are always fair game, though. When in doubt, white guys can be your safe assholes and villains. <3

Basically, what grinds me is that games and game-making should be about FUN, and they're about fun less and less. They've somehow turned into politics and marketing ploys, especially on the internet. Or you have the indielitists who insist games should be "art" and everything that isn't dripping with symbolism (like Braid) or uses greyscale graphics for atmosphere is beneath them and not worthy. It's entertainment, people! Entertainment! Fantasy! Fan. Ta. Sy. IT'S NOT REAL. It's probably not even deep most of the time. Good grief. Stop taking everything so seriously and enjoy the games... and if there are themes in a game you think you might not like, don't play it. When did this get so complicated?

*huff* *puff*

[MaiMai]

Basically, what grinds me is that games and game-making should be about FUN, and they're about fun less and less. They've somehow turned into politics and marketing ploys, especially on the internet. It's entertainment, people! Entertainment! Fantasy! Fan. Ta. Sy. IT'S NOT REAL. It's probably not even deep most of the time. Good grief. Stop taking everything so seriously and enjoy the games... and if there are themes in a game you think you might not like, don't play it. When did this get so complicated?

*huff* *puff*

I feel like this is why my go-to-game with no political connotations whatsoever is Cooking Mama on the DS. No story, you're just mindlessly going through the motions of cooking in the kitchen where one day Mama will look at you proudly over your perfectly cooked bowl of chicken cream stew and give you the gold 100 points medal.

Oh wait, PETA hated that never mind.

[azureXtwilight]

Basically, what grinds me is that games and game-making should be about FUN, and they're about fun less and less. They've somehow turned into politics and marketing ploys, especially on the internet. Or you have the indielitists who insist games should be "art" and everything that isn't dripping with symbolism (like Braid) or uses greyscale graphics for atmosphere is beneath them and not worthy. It's entertainment, people! Entertainment! Fantasy! Fan. Ta. Sy. IT'S NOT REAL. It's probably not even deep most of the time. Good grief. Stop taking everything so seriously and enjoy the games... and if there are themes in a game you think you might not like, don't play it. When did this get so complicated?

*huff* *puff*

Lemmaaa! >_< I love you!

But then again people actually think about marketing ploys because it's the way they get money from.
I don't want to sound conceited or come off as annoying, but sometimes people who makes games got it too rough. Some people I know in DA also said about people wanting them to write several scenes they don't want, tell them they are being racist towards something, tell them to make specific genres... I mean... Come on! Sometimes it's hard to please everyone to make video games, but some players just won't be silent about it.

What's the point on making games where some people like it but you feel like your brain cells are dying every day?

[Blue Lemma]

@azure: One of my favorite quotations:

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody."
—Bill Cosby

(in other words, haters gonna hate )

[Rinrinnya]

I've spent every moment of the last 5 years surrounded almost exclusively by Japanese people. I spend all day at work talking with Japanese people, and then go home to my Japanese wife.
I can spot a weeaboo at 100 paces. And they are everywhere.
Nothing wrong with liking Japan or anything Japanese, but acting like they know Japanese culture? They don't know anything. Hell, I've just mentioned my history with Japan, and Id never be so blatantly arrogant to presume I know more than what's on the surface.

I understand you think it's arrogance, but maybe that's just the wrong way of looking at it? ^^ Someone who has a passion for something would obviously research heavily into it, and thus know more about it than the people who haven't researched about it. So, I think it should be fair to them to be able to say they know things-- of course not everything, but they do know much, and sometimes, enough to make a decent game set in Japan.

I'm not referring to the kids who only watch the things that appear on Toonami, or who don't even know Hiragana, or only know phrases they've heard from anime. I think we should give the people who've studied every piece of Japan's culture a chance, because I find it very unfair to group them in with the ones who don't even know a word of the language other than -chan and -kun, and call them all 'weeaboos' who don't understand the culture at all. Don't you think? ^^

I studied about Japan, it's people, culture and language for hours every day for almost a year before coming Japan, mostly with help from Japanese people that knew. And you know what I realized on my first day in Tokyo? I didn't really know anything.

Everyone comes to understand things at their own pace ^^

What kind of bloated ego is required for a person to read a few books, watch a couple of movies, maybe know one or two Japanese people, and think they really know the culture?
It's like a high school student trying to write a story about war, and the effects it has on students. You can't possibly know it because you haven't suffered through it.

You're right...most definitely. But people who've done more than just read a few books and watch a few movies and know a few people should just get a chance to show they know what they're talking about, because if they're good writers, they won't dive into areas they don't understand about Japanese culture and pretend they understand them, you know? They'll write about things they do know, as they won't know everything, you're right.

But I don't know everything about American culture, and I live in it, and really, I don't have a passion for this culture. So, not only would it not be fun for me to write about something set here, but it would also turn into a very boring piece. That's why it'd be no good to classify everyone with a passion for Japanese things as a weeaboo... ,w,

So, you say I should ponder it. Well I have. For every moment of the last 5 years.
Perhaps I need to watch some One Piece, call everyone "chan" or "kun", and eat everything with chopsticks. Apparently that's the way to do it.

If you can't think of an interesting story without trying to force in elements from something g you know very little about, then you may need to rethink your skills as a writer. Ouch.

That's not the way to do it, and that's not how everyone who loves Japan does it...
And furthermore, the point is some people do know about Japan. Not completely, but enough, and they like it so they want to write about it. Furthermore, some people don't need to force things. I would have to force American elements if I set it here...

So the ending point is, if you look at a game and it has Japanese elements in it, it'd be foolish to simply think 'oh man that has Japanese in it, it must suck and the story must be awful even though I haven't actually seen the story yet' and leave. ^^;

[Kokoro Hane]

As a game maker;
- When it seems my script file gets corrupted, or the error is so obscure I cannot find what is wrong. One time I was just making a test VN to test out some theories on how I could use certain codes, and then an error shows up. It shows me the line, and even when I fixed it, still got the same thing about the SAME line. I'm all like "THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT LINE OF CODE!" perfect indention, nothing broken. Maybe it was so obscure I couldn't see, but I eventually just deleted it.
- When there are some codes I can't figure out how to implement correctly.
- How to release the game as an installer file instead of a .zip. Actually, I could live with that more, but how do I give it it's own icon for the .exe?
- Organizing the jump labels and different routes. Though admittedly, I'm...kind of a messy programmer XD!! When I figured out how to use stats, it made this so much easier!
- The frustration of not being able to draw my own sprites. I...I am going to try....I should at least try to on a Kinetic novel, but having no tablet makes it hard. However, my brother draws beautifully with the mouse and if I gave him sketches he could easily draw them for me. Still, I want the satisfaction of doing all my game's art (aside from backgrounds XD) by myself.

As a gamer;
- Poor story and gameplay, even if it has excellent graphics. Example; DOOM 3, Unreal 2: The Awakening, Unreal Tournament 2007. Run...faster.....please! I feel like I'm in a freakin' dream, in those sorta nightmares where your body decide to run extremely slow and a terrible creature is after you. Originals were best, I say. They were more fun to play and had better weapons. The storyline was also more enjoyable. DOOM 3 seemed more like it was suppose to be a "better" version of the original DOOM, and Unreal 2 was literally an indirect sequel. Nothing to do with prison 849 who was stuck on Napali! I mean, I could deal with it as long as Napali was involved in the game's story, but no... story is the most important thing to me, then fun gameplay as that icing on the cake. I can overlook graphics if the game pulls me in. And gosh, UT '07 was like....ugh, a poor attempt at mashing both the Unreal and UT together as one package? It's separate for a reason....
- Have to be connected to the Internet. Lame, lame lame, lame! Internet connections are very unstable and unreliable at times (varies per connection, but for me, we don't have the fastest), so you could get kicked off any second. I think it is lame to HAVE to be connected in order to play, when it's a SINGLE PLAYER game. MMORPGs need connection 'cause that is what they are, a massive multiplayer. Other games should only be connected WHEN you set up a multiplayer match. I mean....the worst case of MUST BE CONNECTED is...Diablo 3. Love the game...one problem....it sucks how I am on BY MYSELF and it chops like it's an online game. This is another reason I like older games....
- Compatibility issues. It sucks how some older games can't work on newer systems. Even some that aren't THAT OLD can fail to work. I notice a lot with 32bit game and trying to run them on 64bit. Whoever programs the magical program that will make ANY old game work without crashing on newer systems shall receive lots of praise....
- Updates that jack things up. No need to explain why this is hated XD

Pretty much it for now. I know there's more, but I'll post 'em later when they come to my head...

Basically, what grinds me is that games and game-making should be about FUN, and they're about fun less and less.

OH MY GOSH. THIS, THIS, AND MORE THIS. Games are fun, making games are fun. But it seems all makers want is money and speed spitting the games out (which makes poorly programmed games that crash or full of bugs), and it seems some gamers all want just flashy graphics instead of good story and fun gameplay >.>

[TrickWithAKnife]

Someone who has a passion for something would obviously research heavily into it, and thus know more about it than the people who haven't researched about it.

People who do no research know almost nothing. People who do research know only some elements. I think the term for those people is "armchair expert".
Being told about Japan by someone who has never been there is like being taught how to drive by someone who has never driven a car.

I think we should give the people who've studied every piece of Japan's culture a chance, because I find it very unfair to group them in with the ones who don't even know a word of the language other than -chan and -kun, and call them all 'weeaboos' who don't understand the culture at all.

How well can a person understand a culture without being a part of it? How well can they understand the culture without ever setting foot in the country. If your answer is anything but "not very well", then you have grossly underestimated how deep and complex Japanese culture is.[/quote]

And furthermore, the point is some people do know about Japan. Not completely, but enough, and they like it so they want to write about it. Furthermore, some people don't need to force things. I would have to force American elements if I set it here...

So the ending point is, if you look at a game and it has Japanese elements in it, it'd be foolish to simply think 'oh man that has Japanese in it, it must suck and the story must be awful even though I haven't actually seen the story yet' and leave. ^^;

I think you've missed the main point of why a lot of people are tired of hearing about Japan. It's not because the devs don't know enough about the subject (and if you think you do without ever living there for a long period, you are insultingly mistaken).
It's because everyone is using the same setting.
If most VNs were set in Korea, I'd get tired of it (and I love Korean people).
If most VNs were set in a baseball club, I'd get tired of it.
If most VNs were set in a school (and they are), I'd get tired to death of that too.

The point is, I won't touch VNs with anything Japanese or schools because they've done something that has been extremely overused. It's like if I meet someone who says "YOLO". I'm not going to waste my time with someone like that because they obviously don't put much thought into what they do. They just try to copy what's popular.

Perhaps that's a shorter way of explaining it: Using Japanese elements in a VN is the dev equivalent of saying "YOLO".