Interest Check: Website specifically for VN recruitment

[Raithfyre]

Hi there. So I've been toying with the idea of, as the topic says, a website devoted to VN recruitment and such. I wanted to post to do an interest check and see if this is something people would use. When dealing with an already pretty niche potential userbase, if the majority of that base isn't interested, then it'd be a huge time and money sink. Additionally though, if anyone would be interested in helping to write the code for the site, that'd be much appreciated. I'm not a coder at all, but I do have a couple people who have said they would be willing to help, so you wouldn't be all alone.

There are a couple reasons that inspired me to look into something like this. Probably first and foremost is all the recruitment I’ve been doing lately, for multiple groups. The other main one is that there doesn’t seem to be anything like this currently existing (at least not as far as I know of).

So, anyway, first of all, check this out. It’s a site someone put together to help people find form guilds and such for Elder Scrolls Online, since the beta for that is opening soon. I’ll assume that you all went ahead and looked at it, but if not I’ll give you the summary.

You can either fill out a player or a guild application. Player application includes info like your age, casual or hardcore gamer, stuff like that. Guild application has more or less the same information, but on a group level (are you a hardcore guild, what’s the age limit, etc). Then, players can browse the list of guilds and try to find one they’re interested in and then apply to join, so they’re all set up once the beta launches.

Imagine applying this to VN development. You can fill out either a “resume” or list a project/studio. Resume would be more like an “about me” sheet. It’d be stuff like:
-Name/Username
-Age
-Global Region
-Role
-Styles
-Bio (Optional)
-Examples
-Nonprofit?

A project listing would include similar information to the above. You’d describe your project, time frame, whether or not it’s a paid position, and stuff like that.

Now, think about how useful this would be. If there’s a person who wants to join a project, they’d go in, browse the ones that are recruiting, and then submit their application. An email would then be sent out to the project leader that they’ve got a “hit” and they can come check it out.

Alternatively, project leaders can browse by role the binders full of developers, and see if there’s anyone in particular that they want to invite, and can then submit their project info as well as maybe a personal note to the person asking them to consider.

A user would be required to include samples of their work (built in imgur or soundcloud functionality?), or at least link to something off-site. Of course, this would be hard to require for programmers, so maybe the samples wouldn’t be required, just strongly encouraged.

Another possibility is that it could also serve as a sort of hub for the teams, with each project getting a “devs only” section where they can communicate and whatnot. Of course, this would probably drive our costs through the roof so that would probably have to be limited if it exists at all.

This is still in its infancy as far as conception goes, but first I wanted to get some initial feedback from everyone on whether or not it’s something you think would even be worth pursuing.

[mugenjohncel]

Just a few piece of advice...

Make sure you'll have a system set up to ensure a bias free submission and most importantly, set up a system that will prevent and consolidate decision making to a single individual that will probably make biased decisions on who to accept and who to reject in your listings... this will eventually lead to elitism...

Allow me to cite an example...

The VN-Devs
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... 1SXc#gid=1

Trust me, don't even bother going to their IRC Channel, it's just endless procrastinating and sometimes intolerable elitism and ego-stroking

Anyway... what you see here is a listing of OELVN projects, the members involved and other details which is a crude form of what you are trying to achieve there... it's simple but works. Unfortunately, this listing is subject to the whims and will of the guys in charge of the listings and as a consequence I got booted simply because they don't like me or what I do "despite" being a very active producer of OELVN's with several projects under my belt.

Personally it sucks really bad. I was formerly a part of Academy Daze but I have to leave the project simply because it was part of VN-Devs so after that incident I stopped caring and do what I do best and work alone as a one man VN team just to get things done and I doubt anyone would like to work with Uncle Mugen because of the stigma associated with being kicked out. My works could have been better but there is so much a single person can do and settle with my not so good looking drawings while recycling code from older projects to get a working GUI and get things started...

Ehem... Anyway, enough of rant.. I'm so jaded at this point that I no longer have room even for procrastination and I just go out there and produce the OELVN's that I wanted, which unfortunately involves explosive diarrhea every time because it's the only plot I can think of... depressing but Uncle Mugen says... the show must go on... I have fans waiting for me! Of course, I'd love to join a team someday... multi-tasking is not really good in the long run and if you have read my previous works... you'll immediately notice that writing is not my best talent and I have this tendency to abuse ellipses...

Long story short, Do it my friend... just be fair and no discrimination please...

"POOF" (Disappears)

[Greeny]

Could be useful - but you'll want to make sure to get the word out to multiple communities where vn-people hang out. Like DeviantArt, for example. I'm saying this because it's pretty meaningless if everybody on there could be found on the recruitment subforum here at Lemma Soft.

So basically - advertising is what makes or breaks a project like this.

[papillon]

My feedback remains the same as it was previously when the subject came up - without ongoing advertising and recruitment efforts, it won't be any use. If the site isn't pulling high traffic, people won't make the effort to keep listings updated. If all the listings are out of date, people will leave in a huff and not come back. And so on.

A matching service is only useful if you have a lot of people looking to be matched up.

[Raithfyre]

Just a few piece of advice...

Make sure you'll have a system set up to ensure a bias free submission and most importantly, set up a system that will prevent and consolidate decision making to a single individual that will probably make biased decisions on who to accept and who to reject in your listings... this will eventually lead to elitism...


Long story short, Do it my friend... just be fair and no discrimination please...

I wasn't even considering a biased accept/deny process. I figure everyone can fit in somewhere, so my intent was going to be allow anyone to simply register and be a part of the community (which would of course still be moderated, but it wouldn't be super exclusive).

As for advertising and such: yeah, that's been my main concern and what's holding it back. I do think a dedicated site would provide a lot of functionality and convenience the LS subforum doesn't - I actually PM'ed Pytom to get permission to post this, and he agreed that if we had a more organized database, it could be very useful.

Unaware about past similar suggestions, though I'm not surprised. What caused them to fall through? Lack of interest as I fear, or did it just never even get made?

[TrickWithAKnife]

There was a discussion about this kind of thing recently.
Although the aim is noble, there are a lot of potential issues.
I strongly suggest you check out this thread: http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... =4&t=19116

[fioricca]

I would still love to see a site like this, but I don't think a 'listing' type of site fulfills my needs.

I am not planning to hire anyone in the future as I'm shifting my focus away from games to just visual artwork, but if I may still contribute my 2 cents -- the best kind of site is something that has community building features. This site should help people meet each other and get to know others. deviantArt lets its users watch people, comment on artwork, form communities and make friends. This forum has many encouraging members that are friendly and helpful, and I suspect that this is why we've seen an explosion in people asking for crit and evaluation in the Art subforum lately. A listing that does not support these features would not be popular or useful to anyone at all, while running the risk of getting outdated quickly.

A number of professions are involved in the production of games:

1. Writers
2. Artists
3. Musicians
4. Sound engineers
5. Programmers
6. Graphics artist
7. Possibly other professions I've forgotten to mention

And the qualities that someone looks for in each profession is sure to differ. In a writer, I look for work ethics and the ability to express MY ideas well (I mean, if I wanted a fantasy game with an anime feel, but this writer does not know anything about anime and gave me a Tolkien-style fantasy narrative instead, that's not right...). For artists, I need people with a good degree of professionalism, good skills and, as LWR mentioned once as well, an eye for detail. If I wanted a CG of a dramatic scene in which an important character dies, the artist has to be able to convey the EMOTION and the IMPACT of that scene effectively, through good use of colour theory, composition or whatever. I'm more picky when it comes to artists, likely because I am studying to draw effectively myself. In musicians, I need someone who is able to compose music that complements the writing and art, and matches the identity and main concept well; as always, work ethics cannot be ruled out. Sound engineers should be experienced and able to create sounds that breathe life into the work -- if I need sounds for a fight scene, the sounds should be well-controlled and convey that other detail that artwork and writing cannot adequately bring out. Programmers need to be efficient in their languages and be experienced problem solvers. Graphics artists should understand my needs and my users' needs, and deliver an effective and engaging GUI.

Of course, these are all my own standards, and it is highly possible that other commissioners/clients would have different standards of their own. Some can be less fussy about copyright ownership, some have a looser schedule. However, I believe that everyone would be interested in credibility above all: can I trust this person to work for me and to deliver my ideas well? This is something that can only be done through reviews, as far as I'm aware. An artist that has reviews such as "this artist has produced wonderful work in a timely fashion, it's been a great joy working with him/her" vs someone who has no reviews, or even comments such as "it's been two months, are the sprites still not ready yet?" on a... comment wall/shoutbox or something -- it's obvious that more people would want to commission the first one moreso than the second one.

I guess my point is that yes, I think that it would be useful to have a site for VN developers. Right now, I might look at deviantArt/Pixiv if I needed artists, and uhhh idk ff.net if I wanted writers...? S... oundcloud if I wanted musicians...? And then I don't know where programmers hang out, aside from the Ren'py IRC. Sounds and voice actors are even worse -- and what if I needed someone to help make trailers for me as well? I'd have to keep track of various different sites if I wanted a full team, which can be quite a time sink; having all of them in one place (such as in places like LSF) saves me a lot of time and effort. However, the usefulness of this site really depends on its nature, and whether it fulfills my needs or not.

For the record, I have a graveyard of abandoned portfolio sites and am only updating storybeam.tumblr right now. I wouldn't mind maintaining another portfolio site if your idea takes off and this site is launched. However, it would depend on if this site fulfills my needs of promoting more integrated work between people of different professions.

I realise that I might be asking for too much, so I do apologise if I said something unreasonable! x:

[Crocosquirrel]

Personally it sucks really bad. I was formerly a part of Academy Daze but I have to leave the project simply because it was part of VN-Devs so after that incident I stopped caring and do what I do best and work alone as a one man VN team just to get things done and I doubt anyone would like to work with Uncle Mugen because of the stigma associated with being kicked out. My works could have been better but there is so much a single person can do and settle with my not so good looking drawings while recycling code from older projects to get a working GUI and get things started...

I was not aware that this was the reason you vanished, but check the Google Doc again. I've removed the entry-- not only have they ignored it since the day it was listed, but it's not going to be a traditional VN now anyway.

I'll even go on the record to say: I'd rather have Mugen on my project team than all of VN-Devs. He gets the work done, and it's done right. He's not the best writer, but his artwork is top-notch. You've been missed, old friend.

[Raithfyre]

Heh, I guess I should go digging around a bit more before I post. Still though, it seems like the idea was a popular one - a lot of the issues presented were those about the parallel "IMDB" type thing. It seems to me that the two main concerns were that A) it'd be unpopular (which is true) or B) that it'd be unnecessary. While that's also technically true I think there's a lot of room for improvement, and that it could offer enough new features so as to make it superior. This would be especially true for people like myself who can't afford to pay commission prices or anything like that. I'd say about 75% or more of the talent that I find on dA is commission-based, and I can afford about 0% of that (and I know I'm not the only one.)

@Fioricca: I think your points are actually exactly what I'm getting at, just put into more detail. It allows everyone to "shop" so to speak for work that meets their own standards. I imagine it would accommodate everyone's needs due to the user-oriented nature of it.

As for reviews of a user (they worked quickly, unwilling to compromise, etc): I actually think a model similar to Couchsurfing's might work well. For those unfamiliar, Couchsurfing is an organization/community for travelers. Rather than pay for a hotel or whatever, you find someone whose couch is up for grabs in the location that you wanna travel to, and stay at their place instead. Nets you company, a local contact, and saves you money. After a surfing experience, users are encouraged to leave feedback on their guest/host detailing how the person was, if people should be wary of them, etc. I don't remember if the reviews were anonymous or not.

Essentially, this would let others post their opinions of their experience with you, and since you wouldn't be able to hide certain reviews or anything, it would presumably keep everyone accountable. The main problem with this is that it could be susceptible to trolling, but I think that goes for any internet community ever (well, to an extent. In this case you wouldn't really be able prove whether or not you were a good person, so I'm not sure). Another possibility is a model like eBay's, where users you've worked with grade you based on certain criteria. Still open to trolling though, and we wouldn't have an eBay-sized userbase to equalize. Hm.

[9-of-Hearts]

Since most of my skill sets are in art, the most commonly publicly-priced service, I pretty much have a really hard time when I browse the recruitment forums. I've used the search feature here to attempt to find prices for the services I'll eventually hire for, but no cigar. Personally, I'm nowhere near hiring stage. However, I like to keep an eye on prices so I have an estimate of the kind of cash I'll need for whatever service--writing, coding, music... So if this sort of thing happens....I wonder if people of other skills would post their price ranges?

But, so....yeah, I feel like a database like that would be useful... Of course like everyone else mentioned, we're still niche-- but I'm hopeful a nice, collected database like that could happen.

[NeoSota9]

I like this idea it would make it easier for writers like myself who can't do art at all which is the main reason I(and many other would be visual novel creators) haven't made a visual novel of my own yet.