When is a good time to start looking for an artist(s)?

[Cidz]

So, I've been talking to a few people that I'm working on WWOH with. I thought at first we should start looking for an artist maybe after one rough draft is done, and have an artist work on a sprite one at a time as each rough draft finishes. My friend suggested that we wait until all the rough drafts are done, which might be better. I'm not sure because that would take a long time, and I don't want people to grow impatient, but then at least we would have everything to show to an artist.

Anyway, we are all brand new at working on a VN. So, I thought it might be best to ask the people here on lemmasoft who have had more experience working on VNs and with artists. When is the best time to start searching for one?

[Kato]

The best time to start searching for an artist is when you sit down and think 'Damn, we're gonna need an artist'. But seriously, time constraints, working speed, amount of sprites, existing foundations, etc, all effect when you actually need to start looking.

I myself found a fantastic artist straight off the bat and snapped her up when all we had was a general plot to the story and character descriptions (no sketches even) for about 80% of the cast. The artist however has opted to create a detailed concept of each character before any of the sprites are being made which leads me into the fantastic world of PLACEHOLDERS

I can almost guarantee that no matter how quick you can write and code, at the end of the project the writing and coding will be the last things that will be getting worked on with the sprites and art work all in the distant past, finished and polished. Whether it be the cast from Haruhi or pictures of stick figures drawn in the sand out back, there's nothing stopping you coding and working on the script whilst using placeholders in place of the sprites and adding the sprites in later when they have been drawn.

tl;dr, take it slow and do it right. Get your character foundations as fleshed out to the point your whole team is happy to hand it over to an artist and get to work on the rest of the project using placeholders.

[CSJ]

I think the most important thing is to make sure you know what you need an artist to do, before you try to hire one. If you can't explain to them what you would like them to do, then you're going to have a harder time working with them to come up with what you're looking for. That said, the last thing you want to do is spend several weeks doing nothing, waiting for an artist to arrive, so make sure you start recruiting before the rest of the team runs out of things to do, loses morale, or otherwise starts to tire out. Using too many placeholders can make it susceptible to mistakes in the coding, and nobody likes those.

The more you can show prospective artists and guide them initially once you have one, the better.

[nyaatrap]

It's more discussed here:
http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... 34#p244193
Basically, faster is better but you hardly find reliable ones in this stage. Because experienced artists don't trust writers. Writing is usually the primary factor which slow down the whole project.
BTW, you can count on the working speed of artists when they're working as professionals. I know some of them and they surely done incredible amount of arts in a few week if designs and situations are already decided.

[latte]

In that topic nyaatrap shared many people are saying they'd only work for someone with most of the script done, but... Honestly, as far as I'm being paid I don't mind if you only have ideas, I'm not a professional who can't be associated with failed project nor waste time with them. I'm a hobbyist who's still learning, and definitely don't work at a professional's pace, so it's a win-win situation.

If I were to work for free, though, I'd have to LOVE the story and characters and have at least 80% of the scrip ready to make sprites or CGs. Unpaid work is just too risky, more so when it's someone's first project.

[KomiTsuku]

To quote a wise man:

1. Design the world and characters/ outline what assets I'll need
2. Commission the sketches of the characters/ begin writing
3. At 20-25% (depending on length) I'll commission the sprites.
4. At 35-50% (depending on how many are needed) begin commissioning CG (I do it in chunks, based upon story already completed)
5. At 75% I'll commission music
6. At 85%, I'll commission editors
7. At 95%-100%, I'll find testers

Step 1 is the biggest. If I don't know what I'm going to do, I'll end up wandering around aimlessly. Having all that laid out at the start and then sticking with it will make all the other steps go smoother.

Also, it realistically depends on the length of the story. If I'm only writing something that is maybe 5k word count, then I'll skip the sketches and commission the sprites at that point. I prefer having a visual of the character before I begin writing them, so I will almost never do that stage any later. However, I won't bother with any other asset until the script is completed. If the game is going to be a lot longer, than I want to start commissioning earlier to prevent lengthy delays. That being said, there's no point in looking for resources until you have your foundation first. That really is the key point.

It's more geared for those who pay their folks, but the principles still stand. Character designs and setting determine more than most people give them credit for. Seeing a girl with short black hair and a school outfit are going to evoke different responses than one wearing a leather biker gang outfit and neon green hair. If your protagonist's response is the same to both, reconsider your writer. Placeholders don't address this. They also don't address the minor details of a character.

Because experienced artists don't trust writers.

And experienced writers don't trust the artists. And an experienced developer doesn't trust either. If you can perfectly predict every delay (and they will come at you from random directions), you should be a gambler instead of a visual novel developer.

[nyaatrap]

Yes, and I'm only working with people who know how humans are untrustful. For me, people who easily trust other people are most dangerous ones.

[KomiTsuku]

Yes, and I'm only working with people who know how humans are untrustful. For me, people who easily trust other people are most dangerous ones.

I'm not saying don't trust people at all. You've got to put faith in people, otherwise there is no point in doing anything. What I'm saying is that you should always have a Plan B. Something at some point in development will go wrong. Without fail, something will. It might be artists, it might be writers, it might be those crazy music folk. Identify your risks and have some sort of idea on what to do if something goes wrong.

[ghostbunnies]

It's one of those moments you have to use your best judgement - what works for you? You want them sooner than later. Your friend wants them later rather than sooner. Why is that, and more importantly, how will that affect you? (And the group, in this case.)

You could think of art as a reward - It's fun, right? Your characters have real faces! Your WIP thread is pretty! You gain good things, and/or maybe lose bad things like jealousy or anxiety (if it exists). Will getting that reward at an earlier stage rather than later be good for you, personally? The worse your attention span, the worse this is, but if a reward feels AGES and FOREVER far away, it's demotivating... but having a reward too soon can crush your motivation too, like: "The art is done, I can finish the story whenever I feel like it..." and then who knows when it comes to mood?

The reasoning behind not getting an artist until the writing is final, as I can see, is also solid (or rather, flexible): as the writing progresses, you might need to rearrange the story, scrap entire characters or areas and there goes some of the art down the drain. Unless you're paying the artist and you can afford to get things redone (or the artist is a really nice person), having the art makes certain pieces of the story almost permanent. I don't know if anyone wrote themselves into a corner like that but I don't doubt it could happen.

How you approach it depends on how you think and how you write, basically...? Sorry for writing a rant thing. XD;;

I guess I've been thinking mostly about the relationship between writing and art, though, and not so much the coding part. In my mind that's a lower priority, but if you've got a programmer teammate giving you the side-eye and tapping their fingers at you then the situation is a bit different...

[nyaatrap]

Yes, and I'm only working with people who know how humans are untrustful. For me, people who easily trust other people are most dangerous ones.

I'm not saying don't trust people at all. You've got to put faith in people, otherwise there is no point in doing anything. What I'm saying is that you should always have a Plan B. Something at some point in development will go wrong. Without fail, something will. It might be artists, it might be writers, it might be those crazy music folk. Identify your risks and have some sort of idea on what to do if something goes wrong.

I think there's a misunderstanding a word of trust. Whatever, You said what I have in mind.

[Zylinder]

The bottom line of the artist's side of the story would look like this:

Paid: Look at me whenever. (As long as you pony up the money)

Free: Look at me when you have a solid idea of what you actually want. Or when you have enough to convince me that I should pony up 50 hours to slave for you and not quit.

The latter is very subjective depending on who the artist is. Some artists will say yes to little more than an idea and a smile, and then disappear on you. And then some artists will say yes to your entire script and still disappear on you anyway. I personally won't work with anyone who doesn't have the script at least 50% done and a demo to show for it unless I'm really, really attracted to the idea. And if you look at the VN death rate in this forum, that's what you'll go with too.

The way I see it is, just attract a whole lot of artists, and then when they quit and disappear on you, you can replace them at a moment's notice. Pretty much the way to go for free stuff unless you have a reliable artist you usually work with.

[papillon]

I can almost guarantee that no matter how quick you can write and code, at the end of the project the writing and coding will be the last things that will be getting worked on with the sprites and art work all in the distant past, finished and polished.

... I don't know how things work in your world but that's pretty much NEVER how it goes for me. and oh, the frustration of sitting around with a complete game for months waiting for art to materialise...

[Kato]

I can almost guarantee that no matter how quick you can write and code, at the end of the project the writing and coding will be the last things that will be getting worked on with the sprites and art work all in the distant past, finished and polished.

... I don't know how things work in your world but that's pretty much NEVER how it goes for me. and oh, the frustration of sitting around with a complete game for months waiting for art to materialise...

Whaaat? It's always the complete opposite on my end. Art aspects had always been finished well before the programming and writing. Perhaps I really do commission artists insanely early haha

[Cidz]

It's more discussed here:
http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... 34#p244193

Ah! I knew there was a thread similar to this, but I wasn't sure what it was called, so I couldn't find it. Anyway thanks for the link. I'll take a look through it.

Also thank you everyone for you're input. I think of what I gather, it's best to wait until everyone is sure what they want, and I agree. Truth be told, only one person so far is sure what they want. They're also the only person that's finished a rough draft of their route.

Of course, since we are hoping to find someone for free, we might wait until most of the scripts are done to have something more to show. Well, I guess for now, we should focus at least on writing it and getting some progress done, and try not to rush things.

I think one of the reasons I wanted to rush getting an artist, was because I was worried I wouldn't have anything to show for quite awhile, I didn't want people to get impatient. But, I don't think that's the case, hopefully when the time comes to find an artist they wont dump us like the last one. I think we made a mistake perhaps we rushed into things or through too much at her? but she went MIA several months ago.