Mini games in a VN

[muggy8]

So as I was creating my VN I was thinking of a pretty cool thing were you can stick a mini game into a VN and it can act like a decision. like a chess game against a CPU and if you win it takes you to the good end if you lose it takes you to the bad end and if you tie it takes you to the normal end. dont ask how technically speaking but just as an idea what do you guys think? It'll feel like more interaction between you and the game characters because your not just talking to them but also playing against them.

PS: When there's a will, there's a way.

[LateWhiteRabbit]

If you include mini-games, they should be thematically related to the story, and fun to play in their own right.

You have to be careful about including something that is too difficult or challenging, as it acts like a "gate" in the middle of the story that can prevent certain players from passing. Using your example, what if the player is awful at chess and can't win? What if the player doesn't even KNOW how to play chess? You're going to take those players out of the story and possibly prevent them from continuing at all. Or they'll never see the "win" path, because all they'll do is lose at that part of the game.

For instance, Papillon made Fatal Hearts with a lot of mini-games and I would constantly get stuck and have to look up a guide. And finally I encountered a mini-game I just couldn't beat, even after knowing what to do. The story interested me, but I'll never know how it ends, because I couldn't get past the mini-games.

If you include mini-games, they should be something unique to your game, thematically related, fun to play, and everything the player needs to know to succeed should be explained in the game itself. They shouldn't need to come in with any outside knowledge to be able to win at the game. I would also suggest you stick to just one really well-designed and fun gameplay element rather than trying to do a grab-bag of half formed games for variety's sake.

[muggy8]

I see. I was thinking having a mini game in there part ways of course lets stick to the chess example. If you win at the chess game you are more likely to get the good end while still able to screw up hard enough to get the bad end where as if you lose the game you are more likely to get the bad end but if you work really hard you can still get the good end and if you tie, then the odds of getting the good end and the bad end are the same. I was also thinking of implementing some kind of difficulty settings for the mini game when you start off to choose hard medium or easy.

For what I mean by working extra hard, I mean like each decision will either add 1 point or subtract 1 point off your total and if you make the right choice you'll get points and if you make the wrong choice you'll lose points and at the end when the decision matters it tallies your points and see if you have more or less than zero and if you have more then you get the good end and if you have less or equal to zero you get the bad end and if you win the chess mini game you start off with a +3 points and if you lose the chess game you start off with a -2 points. of course that's just an example of the chess scenario.

what i was thinking you are offered other chances to play the mini game like 3 times with 5 choices and each time you play if you already won the last game the chess mini game gets harder and harder and if you win all of them you get an emblem where you can use to unlock the special ending etc. if you lose the AI gets dumber and if you win you can earn back some points to unlock the good ending. of course i was thinking of making the mini games optional too so you can skip them and take a draw all 4 times and get just work to get that good ending.

of course i dont want a simple point system to determine the ending system so something more sophisticated is definitely underneath. but that's the simple idea of the thing.

[fleet]

Jack Norton included mini-games in his Vera Blanc visual novels. They weren't especially hard, but in later releases he added the option to bypass.them. One VN (NOT one of winterwolves games) I played included air hockey. After 15 minutes of trying unsuccessfully, I gave up and put the game aside (I suck at air hockey, and don't enjoy it).
I included mini-games in some of my VNs where you HAD to successfully complete all of the mini-games to get the 'best ending.'
If you include mini-games, I'd suggest"
1. Make sure they are fun and that they can be won without too much difficulty (get an unbiased opinion on whether or not they are fun)
2. Permit the player to by-pass the mini-game without affecting which ending the player gets.


Having said all that, it's your VN, do it the way you want to. Somebody will play it.

[AWSalmon]

Supposedly VNs with mini-games built into them tend to get more attention than otherwise, and I'd have to agree with that. After all, mini-games can be a good way to reel in people who might have never played a visual novel before, since the mini-game itself might be interesting enough for them to give the game a shot, and it could provide a nice, unique experience for people who do have experience with VNs. To use a commercial game as an example, I don't think I would have bothered playing Little Busters! at all if I hadn't found out that it included a baseball minigame because the plot didn't interest me, but of course it turned out to be a great game.

But like the others said, you absolutely should make it bypassable. Forcing the reader to do anything at all, especially if it's difficult, is a bad, bad idea and they'll get sick of it quickly.

[LVUER]

The easiest way is to include the option to just by-pass that said mini-game. Symphonic Rain is a musical VN. You need to play a music score (the usual rhythm game, but not everyone can play it). The game is fun and relatively easy (esp. in easy configuration), the music is cool... but sometimes it still can disturb your play.

You can skip all the mini-game, save for one in the climax. And it also can determine one of your ending. But the game have option to skip this mini-game, as if you get the best score possible.

BTW, wouldn't chess be to long to play as a mini-game (it's a full-game, IMO). Chess isn't something you play in just one or two hour.

[dramspringfeald]

On the other side of this. Try mixing a few Mini games in your game so that the player grows accustom to the fact that they WILL have to participate in the VN. Try setting up "Win/Loose" Arcs if you want. They win they get points for a secret ending, they loose they get no points. Just make sure the mini's are ok within the context of your game. If it's a game about cars i some how think Chess will be good but a "help my find/fix these parts" would be a legit pass. however only add them as long as it adds to the game and the story.

[CaseyLoufek]

Actually I think giving a bypass makes it feel like a cheat. Difficulty settings or making the games optional enchancements and sidepaths rather than part of the main storyline seem like better options.

I do agree the games should be appropriate and themed, not nessicarily unique to your game, but something that enchances the game rather than feeling tacked on. If the story focuses on strategy, politics and/or warfare a chess game is appropriate.

Chess isn't something you play in just one or two hour.

Sure it is, but an hour or two is far longer than most "mini" games. Dai Dai Shogi isn't something you play in an hour or two. Los Alamos chess might offer a shorter game and require a simpler AI though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Alamos_chess

I would also suggest you stick to just one really well-designed and fun gameplay element rather than trying to do a grab-bag of half formed games for variety's sake.

I actually prefer this, but then the question is, is it really a mini-game? If you keep coming back to one game system that keeps adding elements I think you're looking at a core mechanic.

A frustrating and out of place puzzle or boss is well, frustrating in any game. Having people forced to resort to guides means the situation was too hard or not properly explained. I don't think this is a unique problem to visual novels and don't think a skip option is the answer. Having an easy setting that almost anyone should be able to beat is ultimately going to be a lot more satisfying that letting players skip puzzles and take a mediocre score. If you project is a game, let it be a game and focus on making it fun and playable rather than worrying about whether some people are not going to want to have to play the mini-games.

[EroBotan]

BTW, wouldn't chess be to long to play as a mini-game (it's a full-game, IMO). Chess isn't something you play in just one or two hour.

Don't take that seriously, I think that's just a Rabbit's random and quick example to explain things too make people understand his points. I don't think he really meant to suggest chess as mini game ^^;

Edit: I think a good example for mini games is in Harvest Moon, whether you lost or win the swimming contest, trowing tomatoes battles, etc, it won't really affect the story and it's just there for fun.

[LateWhiteRabbit]

BTW, wouldn't chess be to long to play as a mini-game (it's a full-game, IMO). Chess isn't something you play in just one or two hour.

Don't take that seriously, I think that's just a Rabbit's random and quick example to explain things too make people understand his points. I don't think he really meant to suggest chess as mini game ^^;

I was using chess as an example because the OP used chess as his/her example.

[Kitten the Cat]

We're including mini-games in our main VN project, but we're keeping them very simple - nothing that can't be done within 2-5 minutes. Also they are relevant to the story. The mini-games do affect the outcome, but we have put some leeway (for example, you're allowed to fail twice and still get the best ending).

I personally enjoy mini-games that are tied in with the story as it makes the VN more like an actual game.

[Taleweaver]

If you want to know what I think all minigames in VNs should be like, try Catherine. It's incredibly engaging as a VN, and it only has one minigame which I'd call a puzzle platformer - but that minigame is tied in with the context of the story so well that I wish there were more games like this. In these minigames which are supposed to represent the protagonist's nightmare, the player constantly has to run away from something (most of the time, the ground breaking up beneath him, though there are also... other things...), which beautifully reflects the protagonist's constant running away from his problems in real life. Here's a gameplay mechanism that actually enhances the storytelling!

If you do include minigames, make at least the attempt to tie them in with your story - avoid the "I'm a plumber in Bioshock" effect.

[CaseyLoufek]

This is one reason I liked the idea of the Bliss Stage project (www.blissstage.com) so much. The setting involves an aliens that attack with psychic war drones. The PCs are using the inverted cores to create their own psychic war machines and the character's relationships and mental state affect the sort of device they can create.

Interacting with the other characters essentially is the leveling and repair mechanic for the combat game. The rules are pretty simple and mostly a matter of prioritizing calculated sacrifice and not burning out too quickly. We actually expanded the rules for the computer game a bit. As for difficulty, it's rather hard to get stuck on a single fight but you may wind up taking unsustainable losses over time and reaching early game over. You may need to back a few saves to have a chance if you really back yourself in but the game is going to have a lot of replayability with several good endings. They vary in difficulty and there's a route you can win even if you play a bit recklessly. The bad endings also have some variation in their own right.

[muggy8]

Wow alot of feedback and discussion while I was sleeping last night. Thanks guys. And yes the chess example is a bit over the top but I couldn't think of a minigame right off the top of my head in this regard without invoking Professor Layton. I was thinking that lets say you have a character that really enjoys playing chess (or some other type of shorter game) we can make it so that as you advance through the game you will have chances of playing against said character in the game to your liking. I'm saying this because sometimes just talking to a character on a screen with just clicking feels almost talking to a lifeless npc or reading a book without much interaction. Especially if there isn't a decision point for a while. Although some other times it can work quite well. I just want the interaction of a minigame to give some more life to the lifeless NPC reading a book feel.

As for what type of mini game, i'd say 1 type of mini game per character line. lets say we have the chess chracter, the poker character, and the pong character and potentially other characters. in the chess character's line the mini game is going to be chess and just chess where as in the poker character's line the mini game is going to be poker so on and so forth. of course chess, poker and pong are just random examples.

Thoughts?

[ThisIsNoName]

I think the main problem I would have is that it emphasizes the game type over the story. If I wanted to play chess, I would just play chess. And the same with poker, pong or whatever.

One thing that you can do is have different paths for whether you win or lose, but not necessarily have one better than the other. For example, (staying with the chess example), if you lose, the interactions with the chess character might focus on how they apply different strategies from chess to their real life, and vice versa. That way, the player learns more about the character and learns more about how to win at chess at the same time.