My stats say: Story over Gameplay

[OokamiKasumi]

I have made 9 Renpy games.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
3 "Choose your own Adventure" Visual Novels (Story with game elements; multiple endings.)
-- Falling (G)
-- Visitor (PG13)
-- Faery Tale (PG16)

2 Kinetic Novels (All story, no game elements at all.)
-- Alchemical Ink (R18)
-- Torrey and the Vampire (R18)

1 Madlibs story game (Story with slight game element.)
-- Yaoi Story (R18)

1 Hidden Object game (Game with very little story)
-- Madeline's Misplaced Miscellany (PG)

1 instant story generator (R18) (Multiple stories with No game elements & few images)
-- The Erotic Story Generator (R18)

1 quiz game (G) (All Game. No images & No story.)
-- What Kind of Fiction Should You Write?
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Guess which one is getting the most downloads, and by a serious landslide?
-- The Erotic Story Generator, an (R18) game that does nothing but generate hundreds of stories.

The second most popular, at only HALF the number of downloads:
-- Alchemical Ink, an (R18) Kinetic Novel.

Following that is:
-- Yaoi Story, the (R18) MadLibs story game.

Then, in this order:
-- Faery Tale, a (PG16) "Choose your own Adventure" VN story.
-- Torrey and the Vampire, an (R18) Kinetic Novel.
-- The Visitor, a horror VN, that might as well be a Kinetic Novel.
-- Madeline's Misplaced Miscellany, the hidden object game.
-- What Kind of Fiction Should You Write?, the quiz game
-- Falling, a VN.

I don't know about your players, but it seems that mine prefer Story over Game-Play, and by a huge margin. In fact, they seem to prefer Story over graphics, with game-play a Dead Last choice.

Oddly enough, this seems to be the Opposite of what I've been hearing from the so-called Professional game-makers:
-- "If it doesn't have Game-Play, it won't sell!!!"

Are we being LIED to? Or, is it that they simply haven't bothered to check their most recent data?

What have your statistics said?

[Obscura]

Aren't the top three full of steamy sex?

That's my take on it. :-p

[SundownKid]

There are a couple of reasons for such a thing:

1) They are being marketed to a VN-liking audience that doesn't play video games. Obviously they would prefer story-centric games if they were more interesting.

2) The R-18 ones are rarer and therefore get downloaded more by people looking for that kind of thing specifically.

[OokamiKasumi]

Aren't the top three full of steamy sex?
That's my take on it. :-p

Why, yes they are.
-- You think that my players preferences are strictly for the R18 content?

Hmm... It's a thought.
-- But then, why are so many game-makers saying that VNs Without Sex sell better than those with R18 content?

[SundownKid]

Hmm... It's a thought.
-- But then, why are so many game-makers saying that VNs Without Sex sell better than those with R18 content?

Graphic content like that will drive away some of the potential audience for an otherwise normal game. But, a game completely focused on that will attract an audience.

[OokamiKasumi]

There are a couple of reasons for such a thing:

1) They are being marketed to a VN-liking audience that doesn't play video games. Obviously they would prefer story-centric games if they were more interesting.

LOL! They're not being marketed AT ALL.
-- They only places my games have been posted for public view are Here on the Forum, on the Renpy games site, VNDB, and on my personal blog (which isn't being advertised). To make things even more interesting, the games that AREN'T R18 have been posted on DeviantArt.com and RPGMaker.com.

2) The R-18 ones are rarer and therefore get downloaded more by people looking for that kind of thing specifically.

Yes, but how are they Finding them, when the non-adult games are getting more exposure?

Hmm... It's a thought.
-- But then, why are so many game-makers saying that VNs Without Sex sell better than those with R18 content?

Graphic content like that will drive away some of the potential audience for an otherwise normal game. But, a game completely focused on that will attract an audience.

Hmm... You have a point there.
-- Then my particular collection of players (and their stats) is only interested in my Adult stories?

[SundownKid]

Yes, but how are they Finding them, when the non-adult games are getting more exposure?

Well, it's clear that people are actively out SEARCHING for R-18 games, and the places you have put your other games don't get nearly as much exposure as people simply searching for those types of games in the database.

Maybe the best thing you can do to get your game noticed without marketing is to make it risque

[latte]

Pardon my ignorance, but doesn't your reputation as an erotica writer have anything to do with that...? Either way, people do search actively for R-18 stuff, which may be a reason why.

[OokamiKasumi]

Hmm... It's a thought.
-- But then, why are so many game-makers saying that VNs Without Sex sell better than those with R18 content?

I don't think that a VN or game with R18 content will sell less if the rest of the story is mature as well. It's really only graphic sex scenes that would potentially drive people away from it. My VN has a small amount of that, but no graphic pictures or descriptions.

My stories have extremely graphic sex scenes. Probably more so than any professionally made H-game. (Seriously, I have yet to see one that even compares to the level of just how graphically detailed my sex scenes are.) My images however, are merely suggestive nudes.

Are you saying that xXx Pictures scare people off, but xXx Text doesn't?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Well, it's clear that people are actively out SEARCHING for R-18 games, and the places you have put your other games don't get nearly as much exposure as people simply searching for those types of games in the database.

So then, all those professional game-makers saying that no one is interested in Adult games, are Lying?

Maybe the best thing you can do to get your game noticed without marketing is to make it risque

It certainly looks that way to me!
-- Also, they don't seem to want GAMES, they want STORIES. In fact, the fewer game elements there are, the better they seem to like it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Pardon my ignorance, but doesn't your reputation as an erotica writer have anything to do with that...?

It might, IF I was advertising my games the same way I advertise my books -- in book stores and through 3rd party ebook vendors online. In other words, if I was advertising the games WITH my books I could definitely see the possibility of my established reading audience going after them.
-- I'm not.

Either way, people do search actively for R-18 stuff, which may be a reason why.

Are you saying that I've somehow cornered a previously unidentified, and untapped VN niche? I find that a little difficult to believe. Someone had to have known this market existed, so why hasn't anyone mentioned it? Is it supposed to be some kind of Secret?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[CheeryMoya]

Question!

When was each game released? Are you counting downloads from this month only or all total downloads?

I have a gut feeling that since The Erotic Story Generator was released a year ago (according to the Ren'Py Game Database), more people have had the chance to download it.

[OokamiKasumi]

Question! When was each game released? Are you counting downloads from this month only or all total downloads?

All Total Downloads.

I have a gut feeling that since The Erotic Story Generator was released a year ago (according to the Ren'Py Game Database), more people have had the chance to download it.

Then you'd be mistaken.

The Erotic Story Generator was released Aug 2012 -- 7 months ago.
Yaoi Story was released Jan 2011 -- over 2 years ago.
Alchemical Ink was released Apr 2012 -- 10 months ago.

The Erotic Story Generator is one of my most recent releases.

[Obscura]

Aren't the top three full of steamy sex?
That's my take on it. :-p

Why, yes they are.
-- You think that my players preferences are strictly for the R18 content?

Hmm... It's a thought.
-- But then, why are so many game-makers saying that VNs Without Sex sell better than those with R18 content?

I don't know if it's not so much that the sexy stuff doesn't sell...it's that you have to go through more hurdles to sell it.

In September I ran a poll about whether Coming Out On Top should feature hard core sex.

57% in favor of a hardcore version, 54% in favor of both versions, and 3% in favor of a non-explicit version. (You could pick more than one option.)

I don't know exactly who voted, and whether they were people who normally played VNs. Also, it wasn't a huge sample size (it was either around 50 or 100...I took a couple of polls and unfortunately I didn't record the specific numbers, save the final percentages.)

Of course, my game has been targeted to yaoi/bara fans and that's a crowd that usually likes sex scenes (save for the shounen ai subgroup.) For people who normally play VNs because they like VNs, I'm pretty sure a good number of them would prefer the non-explicit version.

edit: As for the preferences of your players, I'm not sure. But I think a lot of people are curious about sex games, especially if they're highly polished and the art is good. It's rare to see one that isn't flash or anime either.

[papillon]

Are we being LIED to? Or, is it that they simply haven't bothered to check their most recent data?

Decaf, my dear!

As I tried to explain, quite frustratedly, in response to someone else's ideas about the "state of the industry", SITES HAVE DIFFERENT AUDIENCES.

I know for a fact that a number of games I have sold as affiliates, which sell extremely badly or not at all on my site, are best-sellers elsewhere. This does not in any way mean that I am a liar or failing to read my stats, or that they are, that would be ridiculous. It has to do with the differences in audience.

People who are looking for certain kinds of games are not downloading your games at all. Your stats can only represent the popularity of your individual games among the people who currently see your games. And you cannot possibly compare those numbers to games which are not even in your sample set to begin with, or to anything having to do with commercial forces.

As for the more specific questions:

Why do game makers say that gameplay is needed?

Well, largely because publishers say that. Bigger distributors are extremely unhappy about the idea of carrying products without gameplay. There also are many customers who refuse to play VNs without gameplay, and many more people who aren't actually customers to begin with who flame the whole idea. The bottom line is a lot murkier. I do believe you'll have serious difficulty mass-marketing a kinetic novel without a lot of tricks to make it feel more interactive than it is, but so far The Royal Trap is selling just fine even though it's my first 100% visual novel, zero gameplay, zero gimmicks. Some people won't buy it because of that, others will. There's no chance of Steam picking it up unless it became a media darling (fat chance), but if it DID, there's no way to say that it wouldn't sell.

Having strong gameplay can allow you to attract a different and potentially larger audience. However, mixing genres to "improve appeal" is dangerous and often leads to the downfalls of mainstream commercial products if they can't do all their elements well.

But all this stuff about money and publishers is entirely irrelevant to people releasing free games on LSF. Players on THIS site have never been all about the gameplay. On THIS site you'll find more people complaining about gameplay getting in the way, because it's a VN club rather than a general games club.

why are so many game-makers saying that VNs Without Sex sell better than those with R18 content?

Who's said that and in what context? Because that makes a huge difference. Most of us in the commercial indie scene are not selling R18 games at all and therefore cannot possibly compare. On Mangagamer's site it's blatantly obvious that the non-R18 games sell terribly compared to the adult ones. Because that's the audience coming to their site! People coming there are LOOKING for the erogames.

On the other hand, I believe they said the non-H version of one game sold maybe ten copies online ever as a download because nobody wanted to buy non-porn, but when they put it on a CD so it could be sold at cons and in the mail, suddenly it got sales. DIFFERENT MARKET.

While no one knows everyone's sales figures for certain, I know enough about MG to be fairly certain that their unit sales are nowhere near what those of us who did get games onto Steam are getting there. And you can't put an r18 game onto that platform. Or onto most platforms. It's not allowed.

SALES are rather a different matter than POPULARITY. Bringing Katawa Shoujo into the equation, for example... it's got mainstream popularity like crazy despite containing adult content. But it's not for sale. The forces are different.

[ThisIsNoName]

LOL! They're not being marketed AT ALL.
-- They only places my games have been posted for public view are Here on the Forum, on the Renpy games site, VNDB, and on my personal blog (which isn't being advertised). To make things even more interesting, the games that AREN'T R18 have been posted on DeviantArt.com and RPGMaker.com.

Sorry for jumping back a bit, but one thing to remember is that advertising is just a very small part of marketing. Everything from game design, to the title, to where the project is hosted, to even your image as a professional erotic author turned amateur game designer has a part in marketing. It seems like you're trying to extrapolate the entire state of video games from the nine games that you've made. It would be like Square Enix saying that RPGs are far more popular than shooters because Final Fantasy 13 sold better than MindJack. But if you look at the games industry as a whole, shooters sold more than double the units of RPGs.

However, I would say that there has been a shift towards more focused storytelling (Journey, TellTale games, etc.) within the past 5 years, but that doesn't mean that everyone should completely ignore gameplay.

[CheeryMoya]

All Total Downloads.

The Erotic Story Generator was released Aug 2012 -- 7 months ago.
Yaoi Story was released Jan 2011 -- over 2 years ago.
Alchemical Ink was released Apr 2012 -- 10 months ago.

The Erotic Story Generator is one of my most recent releases.

Is it possible to have the monthly download counts? If not that's fine since I fail at statistics and I'd screw up any calculations I tried ugh.

But yeah, agree with papillon on a lot of things. You're known to be an erotic writer so the people finding your website/games will likely go for the erotica first.