installed vs play online.

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LVUER
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Re: installed vs play online.

#16 Post by LVUER »

Desu_Cake wrote:
LVUER wrote:With downloads, you need active internet connection to install the game, each time... for those with slow internet connection, this can kill you... mentally and possibly financially too.
No you don't. That would be incredibly redundant. You download it once, then save it to a disk or memory stick, then you can carry it just as easily as a physical copy, if not easier since you don't necessarily need to re-install it each time.
That depends on what kind of download. We used to download all the complete installer file that let us install multiple times off-line. But recently, I see more and more download that only let you install via internet (kinda like streaming movie rather than downloading the entire movie into your HDD). Meaning if you want to install the game to another PC, you need to download again).
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Re: installed vs play online.

#17 Post by SundownKid »

I hate to play online games for the reason that I clear my cookies all the time and it doesn't save offline. I don't really bother with them because having the browser window there is too distracting. I much prefer standalone .exe files for any software.

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Re: installed vs play online.

#18 Post by nyaatrap »

(Non-installer) Zip >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Installer >= Disk > Online
I sometimes stop downloading ren'py games just with the reason they're distributed with installer

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Re: installed vs play online.

#19 Post by jack_norton »

An installer is a must have for most users instead, since looks too cheap with .zip :)
(also for commercial games you'd be looked with suspect!)
I don't like online games either, I prefer downloadable by a lot, for all kind of games. I can't stand multiplayer games and always online ones.
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Re: installed vs play online.

#20 Post by AxemRed »

MangaGamer distribute their games as just a .zip
In general, .zip > .msi > .exe

.exe installers often require admin privileges which is not only annoying, but also a big security risk.

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Re: installed vs play online.

#21 Post by jack_norton »

Anyone can do what they want, but there are still many people confused about how to use a .zip on Windows, believe me I know what I'm talking about. I experienced it just with Loren beta so I couldn't even imagine distributing a game on large scale on my site as .zip (I do that for the Mac versions though).
All AAA commercial games and big portals use .msi / .exe
Though I have to say that ironically, games distributed as .zip don't need to be codesigned and run fine under Windows8 :D
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Re: installed vs play online.

#22 Post by dramspringfeald »

Well this became boring rather quickly, Frankly OP I don't think you know what you are talking about.

The issue depends on how much resources you have VS how much time you want to spend to play said game.
muggy8 wrote:Personally I dont really like having to download a game just to play it.
Why? having the files of your game on hand beats the hell out of Clouds and the MANY restrictions that they have. If the servers fail or are off line then you are SOL. If you loose your password/get hacked/don't update the server for so long you are SOL. Not to mention ANYTHING in the air/online is a security risk and cane lead to viruses, attacks, hacks, spying and just about everything Anon and the feds have been doing lately. Not to mention with retroactive updates that either rewrite the game without you knowing or completely alter files. (1984 makes me paranoid)
muggy8 wrote:installation is annoying.
&? Guess what when you are online such as facebook games, if you clear your internet cash you have to download the games again or when the game updates or when they reset the servers or so on and so on. Simply Not wanting to install it once on your system you are choosing to install it almost every time you go online instead... yeah that's a plan.
muggy8 wrote: trying to install can be sometimes quite difficult sometimes especially if your trying to apply a different language pack on a Japanese game.
Not really. If the programmer had done his job all you have to do is click "Japanese" in the settings. or if you REALLY have to replace the Text file with the new one. takes all of about 20 minuets for the bigger files.
muggy8 wrote:Another reason that I have found a small dislike for downloaded games is the fact that you cant really take them with you.
Almost EVERY game, file or other is Plug and play. You drop the game folder into a flash and play from there. That's how the "App" business makes it's money. If you REALLY have to go to Portable apps and install the Portable app maker. Turns almost Windows files into portable apps.
muggy8 wrote:It's true that Ren.Py can export to Android but that would exclude all the Apple iOS users from playing the game on the go.
Not really. it's just that no one really cares about iOS if you want to look there are plenty of game of OSX games on here you just adapt the files for your iphone. Not to mention there are plenty of libraries floating around that can help you convert Android files to iOS. Where there is a Will there is a Way. I now play my gameboy and nintendo games on my psp it took about 3 minuets.
muggy8 wrote:One thing that I have experienced in my limited experience of playing VNs is the fact that your save files are local to the computer you're using. If you move or switch computers, your essentially losing all your save files.
Um... Almost all vn save files are files for the VN not locally generated txt files. Just copy them to a folder and drop them in the game file... or just copy the whole game over.
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Re: installed vs play online.

#23 Post by icecheetah »

On one hand: My connection is sketchy at the best of times and for me the best time to play VNs is actually when there is a power out. Then I play using the batteries on my laptop. Plus there is a download limit in action here so downloading the same things again and again just to play a game is actually a bad idea. And if the save system relies on cookies in my machine rather than data on the game's actual servers then it's not really worth it for me, as I will inevitably lose the cookies during a lull in my gameplay. This has happened a lot before.
I don't play games on the go so portability isn't an issue for me.

On the other hand my absolute favorite game is an online game: Fallen london, and I like a few others in the Storynexus format. The games are linked to an account and you don't really save, or rather the results of every action you take are automatically saved and you can do nothing about it. It's 90% text based and thus is not much of a burden on my connection, even if I am downloading the same things again and again. The social aspect of it actually adds to the game and you get new content a lot.

I guess, in summary, if a game is online I expect the gameplay to somehow benefit from being online.

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Re: installed vs play online.

#24 Post by muggy8 »

Very interesting feedback that i'm getting. Alot of the problem that I have listed are from the fact that I am technically relatively new to ren.py and to VN as well. and from that stand point alot of the things that are aforementioned may in fact work the other way. One thing that i find is that as a player, I do not want to ever have to think about the back end of the game that i'm playing and alot of the solutions mentioned, you do in fact have to go in and muck around with the back end (moving save files) or you will have to install your game onto a portable memory stick.

Another problem comes with having to stick things onto a memory stick and that's the fact that your memory stick must be large enough to store the whole game. for smaller games sure no problem but for larger games this might become an issue. sure you can just get a bigger memory stick as well but that's another thing the user has to do to get the game to where you want it to be. and dont even get me started on misplacing memory sticks. we've all misplaced stuff before and if you have a ton of memory sticks sitting around trying to find the right one can potentially be a nightmare.

However the concerns about the server stability are true and I do agree that having your game experience jeperdized by server issues are a legitimate concern. as for game save via cookies, i have not implemented the game saves in my game to be cookies but rather saved server side via other forms of black magic. that's why i addressed moving to different locations and save files in the first pace. i wanted to be able to move to a different place and continue from where i left off rather than having to muck around with the back end of my game or put the game on a mobile flash drive.

i guess at the end of the day, the underlying issues that i'm trying to address with this post is the issue of user experience vs overall flexibility and performance.

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Re: installed vs play online.

#25 Post by DaFool »

muggy8 wrote:Very interesting feedback that i'm getting. Alot of the problem that I have listed are from the fact that I am technically relatively new to ren.py and to VN as well. and from that stand point alot of the things that are aforementioned may in fact work the other way. One thing that i find is that as a player, I do not want to ever have to think about the back end of the game that i'm playing and alot of the solutions mentioned, you do in fact have to go in and muck around with the back end (moving save files) or you will have to install your game onto a portable memory stick.

Another problem comes with having to stick things onto a memory stick and that's the fact that your memory stick must be large enough to store the whole game. for smaller games sure no problem but for larger games this might become an issue. sure you can just get a bigger memory stick as well but that's another thing the user has to do to get the game to where you want it to be. and dont even get me started on misplacing memory sticks. we've all misplaced stuff before and if you have a ton of memory sticks sitting around trying to find the right one can potentially be a nightmare.

However the concerns about the server stability are true and I do agree that having your game experience jeperdized by server issues are a legitimate concern. as for game save via cookies, i have not implemented the game saves in my game to be cookies but rather saved server side via other forms of black magic. that's why i addressed moving to different locations and save files in the first pace. i wanted to be able to move to a different place and continue from where i left off rather than having to muck around with the back end of my game or put the game on a mobile flash drive.

i guess at the end of the day, the underlying issues that i'm trying to address with this post is the issue of user experience vs overall flexibility and performance.
I was about to make a lengthy post explaining that your opening post exhibited the worst-case "nightmare customer" scenario... a player who literally had to be spoon-fed and everything made so convenient for them to play that all of the burden (including continuing server-side bandwidth) is dumped onto the developer. For devs who only want to make simple VN-style games for the stories, putting up so much server-side cloud infrastructure just like a microtransaction farm is unappealing.

But it looks like you were an online VN engine developer all along. Now the point of this thread makes sense :)

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Re: installed vs play online.

#26 Post by muggy8 »

I thought I said that pretty clearly in the OP asking if something like a cloud VN is worth putting my time and effort into xD

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Re: installed vs play online.

#27 Post by DaFool »

muggy8 wrote:I thought I said that pretty clearly in the OP asking if something like a cloud VN is worth putting my time and effort into xD
Thing is, you'd have to make not just the engine, but the entire ecosystem (i.e. microtransaction/DLC backend) for it to be worthwhile.

The main downside of downloadables for me is not the inconvenience, but the fact that each game is lonely and often ignored by itself, while there are a few "blockbusters".

The main reason for the rise of Appstores is companies want to be the gatekeeper; devs on the other hand want discoverability.

So I believe the core issue would be creating a library (complete with its own engine/system devs can use and upload to) that's easily discoverable. Whether the system is online only or native client would be a trivial matter.

What I am, as a dev/user, is looking for the most is an HTML5 engine that takes .rpy
I don't want all the ATL directing to go to waste.

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Re: installed vs play online.

#28 Post by LVUER »

muggy8 wrote:I thought I said that pretty clearly in the OP asking if something like a cloud VN is worth putting my time and effort into xD
Nope. IMO, it's not worth the time and effort. VN market is niche from the first place, meaning not a lot money flowing around. And IMO, VN is meant to be simple; you install, you read, and when done, that's it. You find another new one. Professional JVN which cost a lot of money to make a single game is dying while Indie ones that cost less are thriving.
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Re: installed vs play online.

#29 Post by jack_norton »

I haven't looked into it but I think shouldn't be very hard to upload the persistent info (like achievements) and even savegames online using Ren'Py itself. This way you could have the best from both world, a offline working game, and a online backup, exactly how Steam does it (and they know what they're doing).
I might try coding it myself one day, the hardest part is on the server side actually, and probably should use Google App engine and upload savegames as BLOB content (though is years since I last looked at the docs).
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