Getting sick of Japanese names

[RunicV]

This thread is pretty much everyone overreacting. Let's all try to express our opinions clearly instead of telling each other to stfu and gtfo in polite words.

I'm tired of Japanese settings in the VN scene - just like how I'm tired of vampires and werewolves in the Young Adult section of books. I have picked up a book about vampires in the YA section time and time again, hoping that it's interesting, hoping that it's not the same cliche sexy vampire falling in love with a hot girl... and have been disappointed countless times.

I didn't pick up a book to read the same old things over and over again. I want to be a new character, to have different emotions, different feelings, and to experience new things. But I don't, I can't with those books. It's the same. It's all the same, it's so boring, I can't bring myself to like it no matter how hard I try. Because of this, whenever I see a book about vampires or werewolves and romance, I immediately diss it. I can't help it. I've been there, done that. I cannot eat the same thing over and over and over and over and over.

It's the same towards Japanese settings. Even though I know I shouldn't, I can't help but feel a little wary whenever I check out a thread that has anything to do with Japan high school settings and the like.

I'm scared of generic settings because I don't want to read the same events and stories.

Chances are, it's cliche. Chances are, it's the same old cast in different skin, doing the same old thing over and over. Chances are, it's not even funny, it doesn't even have any unique lines, and even if it does it's not worth sitting through the same old cliches. If it's not cliche at all, then sure, I don't mind. I'll be overjoyed and shower praise upon it for being amazing and fresh and standing out. But it isn't. Majority isn't unique. They think they are, but it's not unique.

There is talent in here for stories that are unique. Why don't we take a step out of our comfort zone and try something new? Why are we limiting ourselves to the generic stuff?
If it makes you happy, go ahead and make generic VNs. Please don't expect us to like the same thing over and over. Please brace yourself, we will dislike something we have seen countless times until we are sick. Please be aware that you are limiting your talent by working in the confines of this cliche.

That's all. I may have gone out of point, so I've put in bold what I believe to be the TL;DR parts of this post. I apologize for using "we". My opinion does not stand for everyone. This is merely what I think we are trying to say.

[Auro-Cyanide]

@Runic, the thing is this setting is most common from people who are new to the game. Usually you see people who have been here a while, especially if they have made their first game, will branch out.

I want everyone to think about the very first time you created something. What did you do?

I would put money on the fact you would have imitated what you liked. Because that is what makes us happy, that is where our excitement lies. It is what we love. I started out drawing by making 'original' characters in a Jak and Daxter style. Before that I wrote stories that were heavily inspired by whatever I happened to be reading. That is what you do when you are young, that is what you do when you start out. It's a part of, it's the starting point, of growing.

I'm sick of a whole lot of things, but I don't think people should stop doing them if that is where their heart is and what gets them to create. I don't have that right and neither do any of you.

Everyone has to start somewhere and most people don't just jump in and are immediately 'unique' and 'special'. That takes time, and it takes experience. Please give people that at least. And please remember how you started because I bet you weren't abiding by the 'rules' you are preaching now.

You know what, sometimes the most cliche stuff is the most fun to do. Sometimes I just want to do vampires and draw people with wings, not because I want to be ~original~ but because I just find it fun. Not everything has to be about what other people think. Sometimes just having fun is enough.

And finally, think about who these people you mock will be in the future. When I first came here, I was working on a game that was set in Japan with Japanese characters that all and all was very generic. It never got past concepting stage and I dropped it. But I stayed. And I kept working. My next thing I worked on was with Christine Love and my work sucked. But I kept going. Now I'm here, as a free artist, and I've had my work in 5+ games. I feel as it I've contributed somewhat and I hope to do more in the future. But at the beginning? I was just another wannabe working on an overdone concept. Who else will be like me in the future and choose to stay? How many of them are you looking down on now?

[zankizuna]

@RunicV, Well said.

[Zylinder]

@Runic: And yet the world does not cater to you, nor all the haters of werewolf/vampire romances.

The fact is that there are people who enjoy those books, probably just as many as those who enjoy the books you like. If people are still writing it by the thousands, then there are thousands of people still buying them. Who are you to deny them their enjoyment? It's the exact same thing when applied to high school J-games: Who are you to deny them their enjoyment? If that kind of logic applies, then shouldn't a genre like say, horror, be banned because someone out there is tired of reading about people getting hacked up all the time? No? Then why does it apply to romances?

A whole lot of us are tired as hell of the same topic. Too bad. Live and let live; for all you know it made someone else's day.

So they fail at making their games, so there's a lot of HS J-games. This damages the VN genre's reputation? I think there's a bloated sense of self-importance here. People outside of this community do not know that there are a million failed high school games here - we don't exactly advertise it on banners. Nobody cares about what we fail to make. They only care about what we've completed and those, I'm pleased to report, are usually not the high school J-games. So the fact that it damages VNs' reputations? I doubt it. In fact, I don't even think VNs have enough of a reputation for it to be bad at all, but that's subjective, and possibly just my opinion.

At the end of the day it's not hurting anybody, and running people out of town doesn't help anyone. It's like Auro said: their next game can be a different and creative one.

[RunicV]

@Auro-Cyanide:

I agree completely with what you say. Everyone has to start out somewhere. We definitely won't tear them down, we'll do our best to give constructive feedback and advice so they can keep on improving. In a way this is feedback as well, albeit hostile.
People definitely shouldn't stop doing what they want, they can create anything that makes them happy.

I may have missed your point, and I apologize if I have, I'm not the brightest around here.

Some people who come into this forum and post WIPs have really generic ideas.
I'm talking about those WIPs that don't have a shred of effort or thought put into them. I know I may be rude for disregarding people's efforts like this, but it is really hard to try and give proper feedback when it looks that way.
If they can't even care about their ideas, why would they care about our feedback? Did they even think when they came up with it? Did they wreck their brains trying to think what they wanted to convey? Did they do their research? Make an effort? Or did they just smash together what they think is good? What they believe is good, what is safe to them, what is easy and simple for them to create?

How will they learn? How will they ever improve if they don't do their best in the beginning? I'm not asking them to start making completely original games, I'm asking them to at least try. Research a bit, scream at your characters, lament over this, revise this a bit, put effort into it!

There is one person that I admire which I feel is of relevance to this discussion. macuyo.
Her first game was really generic, and yet it was stunningly unique. Get Dumped was a unique work that revolves around the main character getting dumped by a guy. It is fresh, it is unique, despite the fact that it is set in very generic settings. A school, Japanese names, romance. Three very cliche, boring, overused subjects.

And yet if you say her game is just another school romance game, it would be an insult, even though it is completely true that it is a school romance game.
Her game is different from others and you can see her thoughts, her feelings, her dedication, her effort, all her hard work put into it through the refreshing story she has weaved.

This is not a generic game. That game which has little effort put into it is generic.

THAT is the game we are hating on and bashing.

The game with your effort put inside it is not what we are trying to insult.

If you have put effort in trying to do what you want, it definitely won't be entirely the same. It will be unique, or have something that is good, something that stands out that makes it unique and likable. I don't believe that anyone who has put hard work into their work will not have at least a single good point, at least one unique and refreshing thing in their work.

This is my opinion. I don't speak for everyone. Hopefully you understand what I'm trying to say a little better now.

EDIT:
Auro-Cyanide, you seem to be rather testy these days. You're ruder than usual, and I'm quite surprised. I've always looked up to you as you are a brilliant artist. It's kind of painful to see you twist my words.

First of all, I'm not mocking anyone. I never have and never will mock anyone in LSF. I don't understand why everyone is just trying to jump at each other's throats, not caring about the point which is glaring red and flashing in their face. I don't understand what you're trying to even tell me with that last paragraph. Whatever it is, it's way out of point.

I'm saying that games with no effort are naturally cliche. Cliches don't require thought. You have seen them used over and over and over again, it is easy to chuck them together.

EDIT:
@Zylinder:

I have no idea why you're replying to me of all people. I never said that it was wrong for them to do it and that they should stop doing so. I said they can do whatever they want, but if they expected us to like everything they churn out, they're wrong. And I've never said anything about our reputation. Sorry if you misunderstood me.

Firstly, we're not hating on stuff for no reason. Nothing is ever done for no reason. Why did we create this thread? To complain for fun? Because we have free time? Because we feel like stirring up trouble? Of course not.
We're trying to say that this has been done over and over until it's too much. We're saying that the ratio of cliche VNs to original and innovative VNs is too low. You think we are trying to solve this by preventing cliche VNs being developed. WRONG.
We're trying to solve this by pointing out that there are actually a bunch of people who like original games, why can't the world cater to them too? We're trying to ENCOURAGE PRODUCTION of games that actually aren't the same stuff all over again.

We're trying to give pointers on improvement, pointers that we've been handing out for AGES until we're so sick, we can't take it anymore and actually have to make a thread about it. We're trying to help people learn and grow so that they create better and better VNs.

What are you trying to achieve? Do you honestly think ignoring something will make it go away? Do you think if you don't ever point out mistakes to someone, do you think they will ever KNOW they are making a mistake?
Are they truly learning? Are they really improving by not thinking and mindlessly creating a game built on ideas that have been reused countless times? Are you truly helping them, or are you just too lazy to give advice? I don't know what you are trying to achieve by telling us to shut up and let them be.

You may say I'm no better, and that behind my fancy and idealistic words, I never ever meant to even help and that I was just complaining because there are no games I like. Please don't misunderstand. Last I checked, I was free to try and help people improve the quality of their VNs. Once more, I'm not hating on anime, Japan, or on games people have put hard work into. I'm hating on games that have no effort put into them.

[EroBotan]

1. If you don't like it, then it's better to not read it
2. If you can't find the VN of that fits your taste, then create one. It will help everyone.
3. If you don't have the ability to create one then try to accept reality and move on (and don't insult people who working hard to create their favorite game even though it's generic and they fail in the end, at least they tried)
4. If you really have to complain, do it politely (this thread title is clearly a flamebait)
5. Majority of teenagers tend to like a game with high school setting because it's their current life. Can't blame them from loving it.
6. Making generic games is not a bad thing, especially for people who are new into game development. With generic stuff you have plenty of examples which can be used as reference during development process. The more generic your first game is, the better your chance on finishing it.
7. I'm not here to get involved in arguments, so have a nice day and thanks for reading, bye

[Audria]

That's not proof, that's coincidence. It's like saying fridges cause murders because all murderers own fridges.

I'm a murderer? *giggles* j/k!

[MaiMai]

To be honest, I hope we can just gas this thread since it's pretty much the epitome of "how come people don't like what I like this cheeses me off."

Some good discussion, has been produced, but it's obvious we're all getting waaaaay too testy.

[teacup]

MaiMai is right.
Many people complaining in this thread are upset because people are making games that they don't like.
They apparently lack the ability to ignore those games, and instead focus on things they DO like.
For some reason, they think the world should cater to what they want, so if they don't like certain games, everyone should stop making them.
That will never happen, nor SHOULD it happen.
Basically, there's a false sense of entitlement in this thread that I find really disgusting.
I also hope this thread gets locked at this point. It's not really a discussion anymore.

[Carassaurat]

Ha, RunicV, you remind me of myself — I've had this discussion from your point of view dozens of times. All I can say is that people won't be persuaded; at best you can inspire them, and then even rarely, just as you probably came to your opinion not because someone told you its merits but because of the visual novels you've played. Make art, not arguments.

I guess it's a case of using a style because it's visually appealing and functionally suitable vs adding something for no logical reason.

Visually appealing is a matter of taste — I, for one, dislike it greatly — and functionally suitable is equally up for debate. It is an art style that is born of having to take shortcuts so that many frames of animation or panels of comic could be made, but a VN, with just a handful of sprites, ought to do the exact opposite, be less efficient and more of a visual complement to the words. Plus, their shapes are often geometrically impossible. Ah well, opinions, opinions. My point is that it's a tad hypocritical to attack just one aspect of Japanese influence.

[TrickWithAKnife]

Many people complaining in this thread are upset because people are making games that they don't like.
They apparently lack the ability to ignore those games, and instead focus on things they DO like.
For some reason, they think the world should cater to what they want, so if they don't like certain games, everyone should stop making them.
That will never happen, nor SHOULD it happen.
Basically, there's a false sense of entitlement in this thread that I find really disgusting.
I also hope this thread gets locked at this point. It's not really a discussion anymore.

Nope. People started getting defensive when we started receiving rude comments.
It may be difficult to tolerate, but some of us are actually entitled to be bored of certain things. Or are we not?

Visually appealing is a matter of taste — I, for one, dislike it greatly — and functionally suitable is equally up for debate.

How dare you have an opinion! We should sit around and pat ourselves on the back for copying each other.

[papillon]

Nope. People started getting defensive when we started receiving rude comments.
It may be difficult to tolerate, but some of us are actually entitled to be bored of certain things. Or are we not?

Entitled to be bored of, certainly. To complain that no one should ever create things that bore you and that by doing so they are somehow damaging everyone else in the niche, not so much.

Very few people disagree with "I'm tired of cliche Japanese settings". A lot more people will disagree with "Therefore, you shouldn't make them, and you should be ashamed of yourself."

It's upsetting to the people who are just trying to make the games they like, and it's also annoying to the large numbers of people who are not making games set in Japanese School and would love to have you pay attention to what they're actually doing instead of complaining about other people you don't like.

[TrickWithAKnife]

A lot more people will disagree with "Therefore, you shouldn't make them, and you should be ashamed of yourself."

Who has being saying that? I'd be annoyed by that too.

[Auro-Cyanide]

Sorry Runic , I wasn't actually talking to you in the last bits, I should have had some sort or break between my paragraphs but I added it as an afterthought. The last bits were directed at the thread as a whole.

My point with the last bit was that I think people are lacking empathy when they huff and puff about what other people are doing without considering who that person may be and where they are in the growth process. People don't usually go out to create the most cliche thing they can imagine (without parody), they just want to make something they like, and we have all been there I'm sure.

[Greeny]

For the solution to this thread, scroll back up and read Runic's posts again, alternatively, read what I have to say.

First I'll admit something. I, too, am annoyed everytime I see Japanese names being used without cause. It's not so much Japanese names, or the high school settings; it's when people will toss in Japanese names into any setting, onto any character. Just like that. For no apparent reason, at all. And this annoys me because that is simply not Logical or Rational. And my brain dislikes it when something is not Logical and Rational.

But that's how I feel, and I've come to understand that that alone, does not give me grounds to dismiss it outright. But that annoyance, I know, will take away from the entertainment value for me - so I will move on.

However.

There is one, one single objective point we can make: It's considered good form for writers to put in an effort to make their characters, plot and setting match; to have them complement one another.

And while not required, by any means, isn't that what we, as a community exist for (among other stuff)? To encourage growth in these areas? To provide constructive criticism about how people can improve their writing?

True, we can't say to anyone to simply stop making these games. But I don't think anyone has explicitly said that, not in this thread. And we should be careful about broadening the subject; somewhere, where it was about names, this thread became about generic high school settings.

True, there is something to be said about the avoiding of cliches, too. But that is a different debate altogether - if you start mixing and matching arguments, nothing will come of it, and everybody loses.