Getting sick of Japanese names

A place to discuss things that aren't specific to any one creator or game.
Forum rules
Ren'Py specific questions should be posted in the Ren'Py Questions and Annoucements forum, not here.
Message
Author
User avatar
Obscura
Eileen-Class Veteran
Posts: 1368
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:58 pm
Projects: Coming Out On Top
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Getting sick of Japanese names

#181 Post by Obscura » Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:52 pm

I'd probably like to see a game jam where people make games of a genre they've never tried before, and artists using a style they've never used before.

Maybe one 2 weeks in length or so.
Greeny wrote:The problem with lighthearted comedy is that people don't realize that this kind of comedy is actually very hard to pull off, compared to other genres.

There's no problem with the genre itself. The thing is, with some genres, like Horror, a complete failure can be a success in its own way. There's no way to "fail spectacularily" with lighthearted comedy. You either produce a successful vn, or you produce a successful remedy for insomnia.
Hehe, I think I've seen a couple of comedies that "fail spectacularly", but I guess we hold differing definitions of that phrase.

But yes, because it's comedy, people don't tend to take it very seriously, and usually mistake it as something that's easy to do. There's a reason why sitcoms employ a room of writers, bouncing ideas off of each other. And why most comedic screenplays are credited to larger teams, not one or two individuals.

I'd actually like to see more comedies being made (that's my first choice when looking for a game to play), but I think there are actually very few on these boards. Most humor in VNs are incidental, but not necessarily the focus of the story, or a mixture of romance and comedy (guilty here.)

The last pure comedy VN I played was Saguaro's Young Earth Road Trip and I laughed my freaking head off.
Coming Out On Top - An Adult Gay Dating Sim
Purchase Here
Demo
Tumblr(18+) Twitter Facebook

User avatar
PyTom
Ren'Py Creator
Posts: 15253
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 10:58 am
Completed: Moonlight Walks
Projects: Ren'Py
IRC Nick: renpytom
Github: renpytom
itch: renpytom
Location: Kings Park, NY
Contact:

Re: Getting sick of Japanese names

#182 Post by PyTom » Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:48 pm

Aines445 wrote:I think this was derailed because everyone was tired of arguing, but I think that I might not be right.
That's basically right - or, I suspect, because a lot of people realize that people were talking past each other. It's because this sort of thing is working on two levels - a macro and a micro one.

The macro level tends to talk about what would be good for visual novels as a whole - that there are two many of v kind of game, that there should be more of w kind of game, that if we do x, y, and z, EVNs will be accepted by the larger world, better, and/or more artistic. The micro level is the one where people decide how to spend their time - what sort of game do they want to spend the next few days, months, or years making.

After years at this I've come to the conclusion that arguments at the macro level are basically useless - regardless of what the arguments are. There's are a couple of reasons for this. The first is that the macro level doesn't really exist, since people don't play EVNs as a whole, they play the individual games that catch their fancy. How many times have you hear "All EVNs are crap except..." and then people listing the games they like. It's like with movies - there are a few people (movie critics, people who are into production) who like movies as a whole, but most people tend to like action movies, or romantic comedies, or childrens cartoons, or whatever.

The second reason is that there's a massive amount of difference in effort required to talk on the macro vs the micro level. To contribute on the macro level is easy - you just post here. Making a game on the micro level takes all the effort and the time - and it's very hard for a macro level argument to convince people to spend that time on things they don't want to.

The worst things we can do - and I've seen it done, on multiple occasions, often with the argument "x is overdone" - is to use a macro argument to talk people out of making a game. That's because - with few exceptions - game ideas aren't fungible. When you talk someone out of making a game, you're generally not talking them into making a "better" game - you're usually talking them out of making a game at all.

I've tried, in the past to make arguments at the macro level - "otome games are overdone". I regret doing that now - it was massively ineffective, caused a lot of hurt feelings, and was basically me trying to impose my will. And I also regret not stepping in when other people did the same thing. So I think that's why people respond quite strongly to the idea that "I'm sick of x".

There are ways to make changes at the macro scale. IMO, there have been several games that caused tectonic shifts in the forum - Fate/Stay Night, Re: Alistair, and Katawa Shoujo being the big ones. Releasing a popular game and promoting it is one of the best ways to change things. But simply talking about it - trying to make a macro-scale argument to people working at the micro-scale - seems doomed to failure.

(And so does this thread, although I'd like to conclude it rather than just lock it.)
Supporting creators since 2004
(When was the last time you backed up your game?)
"Do good work." - Virgil Ivan "Gus" Grissom
"Silly and fun things are important." - Elon Musk
Software > Drama • https://www.patreon.com/renpytom

User avatar
fioricca
Veteran
Posts: 333
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:17 am
Completed: Rising Angels Reborn (2013), Rising Angels Fates: Allegiance (2017)
IRC Nick: souten
Contact:

Re: Getting sick of Japanese names

#183 Post by fioricca » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:35 am

PyTom wrote:... I've tried, in the past to make arguments at the macro level - "otome games are overdone". I regret doing that now - it was massively ineffective, caused a lot of hurt feelings, and was basically me trying to impose my will. And I also regret not stepping in when other people did the same thing. So I think that's why people respond quite strongly to the idea that "I'm sick of x".

There are ways to make changes at the macro scale. IMO, there have been several games that caused tectonic shifts in the forum - Fate/Stay Night, Re: Alistair, and Katawa Shoujo being the big ones. Releasing a popular game and promoting it is one of the best ways to change things. But simply talking about it - trying to make a macro-scale argument to people working at the micro-scale - seems doomed to failure.

(And so does this thread, although I'd like to conclude it rather than just lock it.)
Thank you.

This is a brilliant conclusion, because admittedly, I am currently toying with ideas that have been scorned multiple times in several threads (anime tropes, otome elements, cliches). I am passionate about my own ideas, and to that end, I'm willing to invest enough effort to make it; but comments that come off as scornful are disheartening to me and makes me second-guess myself. I'm even contemplating not putting the game up on LSF at all when it's done out of fear, I don't want to be stigmatised for liking things that don't appeal to others/are scoffed at so passionately. (I've been to Japan, have friends who live in Japan/are Japanese, and have studied Japanese myself, but I feel like the moment I include anything Japanese I'll get stigmatised as a weaboo.)

(More subtly, I've read complaints/rants about how 'games with pretty art but without much plot are cheap/boring'; I understand that this is a public forum and everyone is entitled to express such opinions. I don't mind it at all, but I AM an artist, and it makes me feel as though my work is less valuable than a writer's work. I'm terrible at coding and writing. Does that mean I should not try making games at all, as no matter what, I can only create games with 'pretty art', which is cheap? Even though I've invested a lot of heart and effort, would it not be able to stand up to a game with fantastic writing even though the latter uses CC resources?)

I think it would be awesome if we could all be more open-minded, so thank you for encouraging it, PyTom. :'D

ThisIsNoName
Veteran
Posts: 311
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:15 pm
Contact:

Re: Getting sick of Japanese names

#184 Post by ThisIsNoName » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:33 am

fioricca wrote:(More subtly, I've read complaints/rants about how 'games with pretty art but without much plot are cheap/boring'; I understand that this is a public forum and everyone is entitled to express such opinions. I don't mind it at all, but I AM an artist, and it makes me feel as though my work is less valuable than a writer's work. I'm terrible at coding and writing. Does that mean I should not try making games at all, as no matter what, I can only create games with 'pretty art', which is cheap? Even though I've invested a lot of heart and effort, would it not be able to stand up to a game with fantastic writing even though the latter uses CC resources?)
Honestly, I think this is more of a problem with writers than with artists. A lot of the more "amateur" writers that I've seen seem to have the mindset that the art will completely hold up the story, but still tell the artist what to draw, when it should be placed in the story, and what style it should be in. The end result is high quality art that seems hashed together, with the writer saying how awesome his/her game is, oh, and there was that one artist who helped a bit.

I would really love to see more artist-driven stories, or at least stories where you can tell that the artist and writer worked hand-in-hand, instead of the writer dictating what to do.

User avatar
Maelstrom-Fenrir
Regular
Posts: 139
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:09 am
Completed: Shadow on the Bridge, Time Labyrinth
Projects: Porcelain Heart, Umbra
Organization: Black Witch Project
Skype: Maelstrom-Fenrir
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Getting sick of Japanese names

#185 Post by Maelstrom-Fenrir » Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:06 am

fioricca wrote:(More subtly, I've read complaints/rants about how 'games with pretty art but without much plot are cheap/boring'; I understand that this is a public forum and everyone is entitled to express such opinions. I don't mind it at all, but I AM an artist, and it makes me feel as though my work is less valuable than a writer's work. I'm terrible at coding and writing. Does that mean I should not try making games at all, as no matter what, I can only create games with 'pretty art', which is cheap? Even though I've invested a lot of heart and effort, would it not be able to stand up to a game with fantastic writing even though the latter uses CC resources?)
Probably not, these are just complaints about the writing side of things. If you use bad art, you will get complaints about that. If you use CC resources you will get people complaining about that they have seen 'X everywhere.' If you have no art, they will complain about that.

The fact is most people will always find SOMETHING to complain or rant about. Should you ignore them? Maybe, if they are nasty or flames and such. But, I think rather you should think about it like a learning experience. What you should work on, if you are doing the writing and people are giving criticism about it, then think about what could have been improved about it, and work at getting better. If you are doing the art, and people criticize that, they look at what can be improved. Same thing can apply to music, GUI, etc.

A vn isn't made by just a writer, or a artist, but by lots of people. And people want all of that stuff to be good.

Good writing will only hold so much interest in a vn without art. And the reverse, good art will only hold so much interest if the writing is forgettable.
ThisIsNoName wrote:I would really love to see more artist-driven stories, or at least stories where you can tell that the artist and writer worked hand-in-hand, instead of the writer dictating what to do.


I'm curious what you mean by artist-driven stories.

User avatar
TrickWithAKnife
Eileen-Class Veteran
Posts: 1261
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:38 am
Projects: Rika
Organization: Solo (for now)
IRC Nick: Trick
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Contact:

Re: Getting sick of Japanese names

#186 Post by TrickWithAKnife » Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:53 am

I don't think those of us who are tired of the Japanese thing actually hate the creators who use them. I think you know me well enough through fioricca to know I'll moan about them and still try to help people if I can and encourage people not to give up on their projects.

Just because I hate tomatoes doesn't mean I hate tomato farmers.
"We must teach them through the tools with which they are comfortable."
The #renpy IRC channel is a great place to chat with other devs. Due to the nature of IRC and timezone differences, people probably won't reply right away.

If you'd like to view or use any code from my VN PM me. All code is freely available without restriction, but also without warranty or (much) support.

User avatar
Glasskitten
Regular
Posts: 138
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 6:19 pm
Completed: I confess to nothing! \(>o<)/
Location: Inside a parcel of air
Contact:

Re: Getting sick of Japanese names

#187 Post by Glasskitten » Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:01 am

I'm so sorry for my weeaboo-ness. After I started "writing" and "drawing" seriously in the height of my otaku development, I took a step back and tried to replace all the gratuitous Japanese references with strict contextual integrity, but sometimes it's a struggle against my own aesthetic sensibilities. I will probably always love the melodic-yet-staccato open syllable system that looks so much tidier than the Frankenstein sound system English has inherited from its many parent languages. I still can't get one of my freaking extraplanetary civilizations to stop using katakana with Engrish, purely because it looks pretty. OTL (It's the same with the art style. I may not be able to draw anime well, but most Western-styled illustration just looks overly GAR to me for whatever reason.) Maybe I should close my eyes, point to a random European or African spot on a world map, and force myself to rip off their culture instead.

Other roadblock frequently confronted when bestowing an English name upon a character: The majority of currently-used English names belong to one or more individuals I know from real life, and often some of them don't like me or vice versa. :oops:
Grand list of things not officially canceled:
Salt -- the heartwarming story of brain-eating space worms
Tangent -- an epic poem and/or novel about a borderline-autistic Martian imp and her relationship with God
Kittens of the Darned -- a grimdark soap opera about sexy catgirls (Indefinitely postponed until I learn to draw and color realistically)
The Other Mary -- the most perfect fic about the most perfect Mary Sue EVER
Rockheart -- a short story about a monster who kills everyone
Corrupted -- a completely different short story about a monster who kills everyone (late Worst Visual Novel Ever)
Checkpoint 36a -- the transcription of a short multi-ending dream about time travel and undead schoolgirls
In Which the Princess is Kidnapped -- an entry in the "ordinary girl ends up in an alien universe and tries to save it" genre
Pictogram Scramble: Magical Friendship Bunny Ivy -- a Flash game about a magical girl making friends (Indefinitely postponed until I learn how friendship works)

User avatar
TrickWithAKnife
Eileen-Class Veteran
Posts: 1261
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:38 am
Projects: Rika
Organization: Solo (for now)
IRC Nick: Trick
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Contact:

Re: Getting sick of Japanese names

#188 Post by TrickWithAKnife » Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:39 am

If you are happier with Japanese elements, go for it. A lot of the complaining here is just generalisations, and directed more towards projects that use them for no apparent reason. If it is a way of reflecting an alien writing system, there is sense in it, same as using an unusual font.
"We must teach them through the tools with which they are comfortable."
The #renpy IRC channel is a great place to chat with other devs. Due to the nature of IRC and timezone differences, people probably won't reply right away.

If you'd like to view or use any code from my VN PM me. All code is freely available without restriction, but also without warranty or (much) support.

User avatar
sake-bento
Eileen-Class Veteran
Posts: 1893
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 5:58 pm
Completed: http://sakevisual.com/games.html
Projects: Every Sunrise, Shinsei
Organization: sakevisual
Tumblr: sakevisual
Deviantart: sakevisual
itch: sakevisual
Contact:

Re: Getting sick of Japanese names

#189 Post by sake-bento » Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:50 pm

What's always been awkward for me is when I use distinctly East Asian elements in a Western setting and get called out for being a "weaboo" when I'm simply writing my personal life experience. Shockingly, Asian Americans exist. We eat sushi AND hang out with friends named John Smith. I don't speak English with any of my grandparents, so my speech really is peppered with "gratuitous other languages" (including Spanish, since I was born in southern California and now I live in Texas).

I get that it's weird to see someone use stuff out of context. I get that sometimes it even looks like appropriation. I was enjoying an adventure book, when halfway through a group called "Team Manga" showed up with characters named things like "Anime" and "Tsunami," and it left a very bad taste in my mouth. On the flip side, one of my favorite book series is set in ancient Japan, and it's written by two Westerners who don't seem to have any Asian heritage. They just did their homework and wrote respectfully. So yes, I sympathize with being turned off by gratuitous "animu words," but I think it's better to encourage people to create a more accurate picture rather than to cast aside any outside influence.

User avatar
Greeny
Miko-Class Veteran
Posts: 921
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:15 am
Completed: The Loop, The Madness
Projects: In Orbit, TBA
Organization: Gliese Productions
Location: Cantankerous Castle
Contact:

Re: Getting sick of Japanese names

#190 Post by Greeny » Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:18 pm

sake-bento wrote:So yes, I sympathize with being turned off by gratuitous "animu words," but I think it's better to encourage people to create a more accurate picture rather than to cast aside any outside influence.
I second this so much. Well, like the whole post really.
In Orbit [WIP] | Gliese is now doing weekly erratic VN reviews! The latest: Halloween Otome!
Gliese Productions | Facebook | Twitter
Image

User avatar
SundownKid
Lemma-Class Veteran
Posts: 2294
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:50 pm
Completed: Icebound, Selenon Rising Ep. 1-2
Projects: Selenon Rising Ep. 3-4
Organization: Fastermind Games
Deviantart: sundownkid
Location: NYC
Contact:

Re: Getting sick of Japanese names

#191 Post by SundownKid » Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:34 pm

fioricca wrote: (More subtly, I've read complaints/rants about how 'games with pretty art but without much plot are cheap/boring'; I understand that this is a public forum and everyone is entitled to express such opinions. I don't mind it at all, but I AM an artist, and it makes me feel as though my work is less valuable than a writer's work. I'm terrible at coding and writing. Does that mean I should not try making games at all, as no matter what, I can only create games with 'pretty art', which is cheap? Even though I've invested a lot of heart and effort, would it not be able to stand up to a game with fantastic writing even though the latter uses CC resources?)
I think that everyone should be encouraged to team up with someone who can compliment their strengths. Rarely can a single person make a game that's great in every way. Collaborations are great and I recently did one with artists who trusted me to provide the story, and that doesn't mean you have bad ideas, just that you can't write as well as you can draw, just like I can't draw as well as I can write.

Basically, you shouldn't stop making games because your writing is not as good, team up with someone who can't draw and make it happen. Art is equally as valuable to someone who is bad at it and it doesn't mean you have to give up all your creative control over the story.

Carrogath
Regular
Posts: 106
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:08 pm
Completed: Basiliska, Green Eyed Monster
Tumblr: carrogath
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Getting sick of Japanese names

#192 Post by Carrogath » Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:44 pm

SundownKid wrote: Basically, you shouldn't stop making games because your writing is not as good, team up with someone who can't draw and make it happen. Art is equally as valuable to someone who is bad at it and it doesn't mean you have to give up all your creative control over the story.
Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head here. If you can't write, just ask someone to help you. There's no shame in being a bad writer--not everyone can be good at everything--and, honestly, the art is just as important as the writing. It takes both to make a really good product. A well-written product with CC assets still isn't going to have as much of an impact as a product with art that actually complements the story.

Plus, just because you might a bad writer doesn't mean you have bad ideas. Execution is everything.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users