Getting sick of Japanese names

[ririruetoo]

It's funny how popular this thread has gotten. It makes me laugh, although it has diverged quite from my intended topic, its still pretty entertaining how it has taken on a life its own.

[dramspringfeald]

I'm pretty happy to pick up where it left off.

We had addressed that NAMES were the least of the issues to be had and that we wanted SOMETHING other then the same thing we always see. THEY said "no we're good" and posted Cat in a Shirt.

So I'm not sure where to go from that.

[TrickWithAKnife]

It's all pretty much been said. Most of it boils down to these two views:

View 1 is that Japanese elements, particularly names, have been overused, and become boring.

View 2 is that people should have the freedom to make whatever makes them happy.

These 2 views are not incompatible, and there's a decent number of people who are in both groups.

I can't really see the discussion going anywhere useful if it continues.

[RunicV]

I was actually hoping that this thread would turn into a discussion of how to promote creativity in VNs.

Sick of Japanese settings and names --> why so many VNs in this setting ---> how to get people to try out different stuff
Eg. more resources for school settings, so people have more stories which are set in schools, lets see if we can try to get more CC backgrounds which aren't school-based etc etc
...is an example of the path that I was hoping this thread would take.

It's sad that some people like me are looking for serious discussion here, but then no one's really trying to discuss anymore.

[Auro-Cyanide]

It's because people are scared of arguments and they think diverting the conversation will make the issue go away. Basically, they are changing topics because they feel uncomfortable.

We can't stop people being inspired by pop-culture, especially when the 'best' in this medium are from Japan. It's the way humans and memes work. What we can do, apart from commenting and paying attention to the games that do do things differently, is become their inspiration.

Remember when Katawa Shojo came out and it was followed by a number of WiPs based on the same premise? We need to do that. We need to become that inspiration, show them how it's done, show them the other types of stories that can be told. If we aren't doing that, can we really blame others for also not doing that? That's the greatest extent we can affect people. Telling them won't work, yelling at them won't work, complaining about it won't work.

But we can show them. It will take time, and it will take a hell of a lot of effort, but it can happen.

[Obscura]

If I may interject, I don't think people were necessarily scared of arguments. I think hijacking was done more out of a sense that, "this thread is going nowhere because people are getting defensive and touchy." After a certain point, I think it would have just made more sense to abandon ship and start over in a new thread, and frame the discussion in a different way.

We have other threads that discuss this topic quite civilly, I believe. IMHO, this wasn't one of the more productive ones.

[TrickWithAKnife]

More of a "how can we foster creativity in the community" kind of thread? Interesting.

[Auro-Cyanide]

If I may interject, I don't think people were necessarily scared of arguments. I think hijacking was done more out of a sense that, "this thread is going nowhere because people are getting defensive and touchy." After a certain point, I think it would have just made more sense to abandon ship and start over in a new thread, and frame the discussion in a different way.

We have other threads that discuss this topic quite civilly, I believe. IMHO, this wasn't one of the more productive ones.

Probably XD But derailing is a little... I think it's either better to stop replying if you don't want to join the conversation, or bring it on track to what you think is relevant. As long as people aren't calling each other names, or giving out threats, the people taking part have some right to continue it without other people interrupting with something off track because they don't want to talk about it anymore? But starting over is good, though we have had this discussion numerous times, but with different subjects, so there is a lot of going around in circles. I mean, I believe in letting people be and doing what I can with my own work and showing people that way. You can't really tell people these types of things.

[Obscura]

I think at a certain point it started getting personal between a number of people (I'm not going to say where), and when people start getting personal is usually when I no longer take anything in a thread seriously. But I suppose that's not the best response, so I apologize.

In terms of the original topic though, practically speaking, I think as soon as you use a Japanese name when the setting is Western, it's an immediate signal to people. You'll get some people interested because they'll assume you too, enjoy the things they like, JVNs, manga, and anime, etc. There's nothing wrong with that. It only becomes a (minor) issue if you want to attract people outside of that group, I believe.

[Auro-Cyanide]

I think at a certain point it started getting personal between a number of people (I'm not going to say where), and when people start getting personal is usually when I no longer take anything in a thread seriously. But I suppose that's not the best response, so I apologize.

In terms of the original topic though, practically speaking, I think as soon as you use a Japanese name when the setting is Western, it's an immediate signal to people. You'll get some people interested because they'll assume you too, enjoy the things they like, JVNs, manga, and anime, etc. There's nothing wrong with that. It only becomes a (minor) issue if you want to attract people outside of that group, I believe.

There's lots of people here, everyone handles things in there own way I'm a bit of a kill joy when it comes to not breaking rules, and I understand why some people crack jokes to break tension. We do remarkably well for a forum generally, in my opinion.

I do agree it's a signal. I mean, if I see a story with a Western setting with a cast of Japanese characters with no reason, it's unlikely I'll read it. I totally agree that it's often done out of a fan appeal rather than an interest in telling a good story. But I do remember what I was like when I was younger and into fantasy. Cliche doesn't come close to describing what I did. So I guess, while I'm not personally interested, I do understand the why. I mean, I'm not even that interested in high school settings at all because I've been there and done that, but for a lot of people, that's still their lives.

As for the other bit, if people are doing what they want first and foremost, then they can't complain about how others react. If you aren't paying attention to others than you can't complain when they don't pay attention to you. You can't please everyone, but you can definitely pick your demographic and listen to them, which is the best move for commercial games. If you don't listen to anyone, then you have to satisfied with what your doing since no-one has an obligation to you.

As for the remarking on fostering a more creative community, I think it's similar to what I said before. You don't foster one, you be one. Making things is the best way of both attracting attention and convincing people without directly interfering with what they are doing. Our community grows this way. In the past two years we have both improved the quality and quantity of output and I think that's directly related to people being exposed to each other, competing, exchanging ideas and basically being inspired to match and improve on what has been done before.

I also think a useful tactic might be to simply try and expose people to more things. Like, if you see someone that has a pretty typical plot or setting, instead of telling them their plot is typical or cliche, maybe suggest to them a free VN that does similar things, but in a unique way. Our taste improves as we get exposed to more things, so maybe directing people that way might be helpful. I think games we make are the best suggestions since suggesting commercial JVNs seems counter productive at this stage. They are good examples as always, but they aren't examples of what hobby VN devs can manage usually.

[arachni42]

Yeah, I think the thread was derailed because of going in circles.

As relatively someone new to this community (and to VNs in general), I think it's helped me both that there are non Japanese HS VNs out there, and that fans here both welcome and desire them. I was never going to do a JHS VN in the first place (because I am older and less interested, I think, plus I'm big on the "write what you know" stuff) but I did come in wondering if people were interested in other types of stories in something that was such a niche in the western world to begin with.

I think the biggest influence toward getting people to write different kinds of VNs would be playing different kinds of VNs. Obviously it's a bit of a circular situation. If there's an action to take other than making non-JHS VNs, I think it would be promoting those VNs outside of this community... just trying to make them as easy to find as possible for those looking for EVNs.

[Aines445]

I think this was derailed because everyone was tired of arguing, but I think that I might not be right.

I personally don't care either way, and I did like how this was derailed, since, come on, we all like happy endings, right?right? Besides, I really don't have many opinions on names. I don't really go deep into the meaning of a name, of course if it's japanese, I guess I would make an effort, but I'm not doing anything in Japan.

[dramspringfeald]

ANYWAY, To foster Creativity we should push to tell local stories instead of Cookie Cutter, Paint by numbers, Generic games.They have a place in learning HOW to make games but THEY also deserve better then getting treated as a Clone of a clone of a clone. These are REALLY good if your trying out and making your first game but many tend to just rinse and repeat. Which is what has landed us to the middle of the conversation.

You all keep saying were are a niche faction of game makers, maybe we should start acting like it. We should start making games that go after the other sides of the psyche. Start making games that ask real questions of the players. If we want to encourage diversity and creativity we need to start telling them it is over done but nice try. Show them that there are other options beyond yet another Japanese High School Comedy. Ideas like they get a Summer break "Take the kids out camping" or "Maybe they went Skiing during winter break" Put the entire game into 1 or 2 weeks. What about their "out of school" job? The very job they took to pay for the vacation OR how about what YOU did for vacation.

Can you write the story from ANY of the Girls point of view. Instead of trying to get the girl, you are one of the 7 girls trying to get guy while having 6 foils or hell even try to get one of the girls yourself.

Why does it have to be in a School? Can they be in Space or on another Planet?

Why does it need to be a "Lighthearted" comedy? When Dark and Snarky is FAR more fun. (CSI, Herry Potter). Hell a Horror Comedy would be Epic! (Evil Dead, Shaun of the dead, Freddy Kruger) It doesn't have to even be people. Look at the game from the side of the monsters show their world... granted that one will become a fetish game pretty fast but hey it will be fun. Make it about your thoughts on religion... just Please no more generic high school cookie cutters.

Hell you could make the game about Online/Blind dating.

Paint by numbers is simple.
Generic Japanese background of some shop in Tokyo + 7 characters, The Ganki girl, the Emotionless girl, the Goth, the Rich girl, thePsycho, the Child, and the heroin Which is of course the true ending. Then add "Test scores" and let the drama go. It's quick, lazy and really writes itself.

The Cookie Cutter ~ See that game, Make that game but with Naruto characters! It's actually lazier then the last option but it gets the basics down.

Then there is the generic game where the creator just gave up halfway through and you can fell it. It's usually one of the first 2 options.

[ShippoK]

Hell you could make the game about Online/Blind dating.

Paint by numbers is simple.
Generic Japanese background of some shop in Tokyo + 7 characters, The Ganki girl, the Emotionless girl, the Goth, the Rich girl, thePsycho, the Child, and the heroin Which is of course the true ending. Then add "Test scores" and let the drama go. It's quick, lazy and really writes itself.

The Cookie Cutter ~ See that game, Make that game but with Naruto characters! It's actually lazier then the last option but it gets the basics down.

Then there is the generic game where the creator just gave up halfway through and you can fell it. It's usually one of the first 2 options.

What, no Shy girl? Worse game ever!

[Greeny]

The problem with lighthearted comedy is that people don't realize that this kind of comedy is actually very hard to pull off, compared to other genres.

There's no problem with the genre itself. The thing is, with some genres, like Horror, a complete failure can be a success in its own way. There's no way to "fail spectacularily" with lighthearted comedy. You either produce a successful vn, or you produce a successful remedy for insomnia.