The artist isn't listening

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PyTom
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Re: The artist isn't listening

#16 Post by PyTom » Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:09 pm

Samu-kun wrote:If the artist thinks it looks better that way, it probably looks better that way.
I'll echo that. An artist is not an "art robot" - they're a partner in game creation. It's also usually easier to change the writing to match the art, rather than vice versa. That isn't to say that there aren't times that a writer should stand firm about an artistic point. But if you do, there should be a good reason for it, one that you should be able to articulate clearly.
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Re: The artist isn't listening

#17 Post by Semienigma » Sun May 05, 2013 12:36 pm

Speaking as an Artist, I know that when my friend said I should change something I drew it took me a long time to get to the point of wanting to change it. Now with the changes you asked for, even if its just the color of something you would have to say why that is significant. because some things look really weird with the wrong color. Just saying.

As others have said, if you are working with an artist, you can't have total control over the image they create and it is very suffocation to have someone dictate how something should look to the point of saying how many ruffles on a skirt. Ya know?
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Re: The artist isn't listening

#18 Post by Boomsickle » Tue May 07, 2013 1:23 am

I'm on your side she was the one who offered to do the drawings so she should be willing to meet your demands. My suggestion is have another artist go over the drawings to fix the things you want to be fixed. Just thank her for her work and be on with it. Try not to mix friends with work as much as possible.

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Re: The artist isn't listening

#19 Post by dramspringfeald » Tue May 07, 2013 5:21 am

Semienigma wrote:As others have said, if you are working with an artist, you can't have total control over the image they create and it is very suffocation to have someone dictate how something should look to the point of saying how many ruffles on a skirt. Ya know?
Speaking as both sides... Isn't that your job though? If you are Hired/Volunteer isn't it your job to make sure the artwork is up the the standards of the Production leader? Sure there will be times when you have to grab them by the ear and show them how it's not going to work but beyond that when Dev says make that character jump you had better ask how high. OR your job will go to someone else. Remember the art helps the game but THEIR story is what makes or brakes the game.

If the Dev leader wants a 50 foot tall Tentacle monster painted fuschia... who are you to argue?

as to the OP Really if the artists isn't worth the effort find a new one. just expect a delay with the whole game as things will NEED to be changed.
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Re: The artist isn't listening

#20 Post by Desu_Cake » Tue May 07, 2013 6:57 am

Boomsickle wrote:My suggestion is have another artist go over the drawings to fix the things you want to be fixed.
Absolutely do NOT do this.
Especially if you want to remain friends with the artist. That sort of thing is an extreme insult, to both the old and new artist. If you want to hire a different artist go ahead and do so, but don't ask them to modify what the previous artist drew for you.

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Re: The artist isn't listening

#21 Post by FailedSanity » Tue May 07, 2013 12:52 pm

dramspringfeald wrote:Speaking as both sides... Isn't that your job though? If you are Hired/Volunteer isn't it your job to make sure the artwork is up the the standards of the Production leader?
Hired, yes. Volunteer, no.

If you are paying me for a commission, and you want there to be an even number of ruffles on her skirt, and I drew it with thirteen... I will just have to go back in and add another ruffle (true story).

If I am drawing something for you for free, then the working relationship has just changed from Tyrant and Peasant to more of a give and take. I have a life, a job, and other things besides this game I'm working on for free. It is a side project I am doing on the side. It doesn't pay the bills, and if I have just finished working a ten hour shift, my remaining time is a finite resource. I can spend it either A) Enjoying time with my friends, or B) Changing Male Character B's tie to lime green, even though the rest of his sprite is in warm red and orange tones.

If you want a lime green tie, you're going to have to convince me that it's important enough to warrant my time.
when Dev says make that character jump you had better ask how high. OR your job will go to someone else.
Believe it or not, there is not a massive horde of high quality artists clambering to spend 30+ hours to redraw game sprites for free, in a niche gaming category that has little recognition and a small fanbase, for a writer/developer who is already known to be overbearing and difficult to work with. It is the VOLUNTEER artist's job to create art asses, and be reasonable and make changes that are important or a good idea. It is the Developer's job to also be reasonable, and prioritize the changes so that only the ones that are important or a good idea are requested of the artist.

It is not difficult to be reasonable. On the developers part: a short explanation of why they think the change needs to happen. On the artists part: a short explanation of why they believe the change is a bad idea (or simply not important). Then one of the two parties has to admit they're wrong, or they can compromise.

Communication is key, and it sounds like communication is lacking on both sides of the argument in OP's post.
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Re: The artist isn't listening

#22 Post by merdeamour » Tue May 07, 2013 2:34 pm

Desu_Cake wrote:
Boomsickle wrote:My suggestion is have another artist go over the drawings to fix the things you want to be fixed.
Absolutely do NOT do this.
Especially if you want to remain friends with the artist. That sort of thing is an extreme insult, to both the old and new artist. If you want to hire a different artist go ahead and do so, but don't ask them to modify what the previous artist drew for you.
I echo Desu_Cake on this one. From the point of view of a writer, it's like having my work edited without my permission/against my wishes.

Also, FailedSanity has a point--it's important to be reasonable in a situation like this. Paid or no, the artist IS still the artist. What I mean is, there could be something that s/he thinks would work better, in an artistic point of view so to speak. *shrugs*

Communication IS the key--maybe you're not being vocal enough about WHY you want those changes to happen? Maybe she just sees those things you want change as a whim of yours? If that's so, just open up to her about why you want those changes. Also remember to respect her, and ask if it's not too much trouble for making those changes.
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Re: The artist isn't listening

#23 Post by Boomsickle » Thu May 09, 2013 6:26 pm

Large companies dont throw away months of work just because an artist doesn't want to follow the direction the company wants. I know its a lot to take in but some times you just need to protect your investment. If you are paying someone to work than they should be more lenient to meeting your needs but if you are having someone work for free you must make sure you both envision what is best for the project.

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Re: The artist isn't listening

#24 Post by curry nochi rice » Fri May 10, 2013 2:38 am

I gave my friend the whole task of doing the art for the game... I noticed she was the type that wouldn't like to change anything.
so I gave it up, left everything to her doing.

well it isn't just about the artist being your friend, the same might go if the whole staff are your friends.
you might find yourself in a situation where nobody listens to you.
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Re: The artist isn't listening

#25 Post by Desu_Cake » Fri May 10, 2013 7:06 am

Boomsickle wrote:Large companies dont throw away months of work just because an artist doesn't want to follow the direction the company wants. I know its a lot to take in but some times you just need to protect your investment. If you are paying someone to work than they should be more lenient to meeting your needs but if you are having someone work for free you must make sure you both envision what is best for the project.
No. That's still wrong. Most licenses for art specify that you are not allowed to modify it without the artist's permission. If there's a formal contract in place, the artist is well within their rights to sue you for doing so.
Regardless, once word gets around that you do things like that, good luck finding another artist willing to work with you. I know it's a lot to take in, but sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture.

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Re: The artist isn't listening

#26 Post by TrickWithAKnife » Fri May 10, 2013 7:24 am

I get the feeling that there are three general ways of thinking at work in this topic.

1: Artists should expect a certain amount of pressure and demands.
They are being employed, and a certain degree of professionalism is expected.

2: Artists should have creative freedom. This is their area of expertise. Your job is to explain what you need, and for them to interpret it in their own way.

3: It's difficult, but the creative freedom and responsibilities should be balanced.

Personally I don't think any of these views are necessarily wrong, but there needs to be good communication between both parties. The working relationship and expectations need to be well defined and agreed on before any work starts.

I also feel that it's better to look at an artist as a team member rather than an employee. This is more reason for artists to decline projects they don't feel invested in, unless they can deal with whatever comes up.
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Re: The artist isn't listening

#27 Post by Boomsickle » Fri May 10, 2013 12:22 pm

I'm sorry if there are people that believe my way of thinking is wrong especially to those artists that have invested their time on a project only to have someone go over it but as someone that works part time graveyard and goes to school full time i cannot invest my money and time only to have to redo everything. Of course everyone has their own situation and each dispute should be handled with a trial by trial basis and not following one strict guideline if there was an agreement before hand that you cannot change any details in their artwork than so be it but please do not blatantly call me out for stating my opinion on a forum and practically stating something along the lines of a public execution that is not only poor character but also unjust.

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Re: The artist isn't listening

#28 Post by FailedSanity » Fri May 10, 2013 1:46 pm

Boomsickle:
It's just that your opinion was made with incomplete knowledge. The vast majority of professional sales that an artist or graphic designer does, the artist does not actually sell the image. Instead, they sell the usage rights to an image. That's a completely different ball game. The artist maintains all of the original rights to the image, and the client is given a specific circumstances that they can use the image under. Any alterations or different usage must go through the original artist, who gets paid again for that extra work. Additionally, since the artist still owns the image, they can repackage it and resell it to a different client for a different purpose.

If the image was sold royalty free, then they do not have to go through the original artist for different uses of the image, and often have been sold the rights to edit the image. This is a more expensive flat fee. And, still, the artist owns the rights to that image and can resell. A good example of this is most stock photography.

At least in graphic design, It's fairly rare for a client to actually flat out buy the rights to an image. This is like five times more expensive, because the artist can not resell the image to make any other profits off of it. It only makes sense for a client to go this route for things like logos, that they'll need to use and reuse for every project they ever do.

Wow, and now my business classes are showing.

But the basic idea of what I'm saying is that no one was prosecuting you for saying that people get sued for unlicensed alterations. That's just a true statement.

While it's unlikely for small time OELVN asset creators who live across the world from eachother to sue eachother, I strongly advise writing up a simple contract in advance to completing any work. It doesn't have to be complicated or written in legal jargon, just a paragraph stating how much work will be done, how much the artist will be paid, and what usage rights are being sold to the client. If both parties agree to something as simple as that, it will prevent misunderstandings and hard feelings later on in the project.
While that's just a suggestion for volunteer work, I'd say it's pretty much mandatory for anything where money exchanges hands.
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Re: The artist isn't listening

#29 Post by Boomsickle » Fri May 10, 2013 3:18 pm

@ FailedSanity Thanks for the information it actually does help a lot. When someone quotes you and uses your knowledge or lack of and makes a statement that is similar to "Regardless, once word gets around that you do things like that, good luck finding another artist willing to work with you. I know it's a lot to take in, but sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture." it kinda has the feeling of persecution but other than that it's helpful when people give larger explanations to what you are doing wrong instead of just saying you are wrong and not providing help, you know what i mean?

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Re: The artist isn't listening

#30 Post by FailedSanity » Fri May 10, 2013 6:25 pm

Boomsickle:
I think a lot of the time people forget that not everyone is starting from the same knowledge base, and will assume that you know everything that they know. Which is miscommunication - a pretty big trend of topic in this particular thread! XD
I'm always happy to explain something if I know the answer. (:
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