Everyone Kickstart Yo!

[Coren]

Is nobody going to mention indiegogo, though? I know it's around the same concept, but what do people think about the fact that the producer can still run off with the pot (just with some more tax than usual) without it reaching the goal?

[papillon]

If I ever *did* try to make that fullscale yuri eroge I would almost certainly have to kickstart it... however, the skillset for running a successful kickstarter is not quite the same as that for actually selling games I've made, so it might simply result in disappointment and disaster. Meh.

If you know how to tell a story, that's at least 50% of what you'll need to know in terms of marketing on Kickstarter.

I make games. I am not so good at people. I do not do well trying to go from website to website with a marching band getting folks to notice me. My extremely limited press coverage speaks to this. The idea of using some of the psychological manipulation techniques I've seen employed by some kickstarters makes my skin crawl. I'm also incapable of boldly lying and claiming that I am doing the most revolutionary thing ever when I'm not. (And have been known to reply bitchily to certain companies who want me to run their ads by pointing out, in detail, how many inaccuracies are in said ads) I just make stuff.

So, I have the sneaking suspicion that me just making a Kickstarter and plopping it up there will lead to a big fat nothing, except only worse than nothing, because it will make me look like an idiot to those few people who notice it. Bad for business.

[vividXP]

Is nobody going to mention indiegogo, though? I know it's around the same concept, but what do people think about the fact that the producer can still run off with the pot (just with some more tax than usual) without it reaching the goal?

I think there is more risk, but I've donated to 3 indiegogo projects, 2 with flexible funding (the producer can keep the money even if they don't reach the goal). The last one (the game I linked to in my last post) was the fixed funding campaign which is like kickstarter where you don't get anything unless you hit your goal. For the record, all 3 campaigns surpassed their goals.

On the aspiring producer side, there are reasons why you might want to do indiegogo instead of kickstarter:
1) Less stringent screening process.
2) You can accept international payments, and paypal, and major credit cards.
3) Flexible funding, in case you almost make it but not quite.

More risk to the donors of course, but from the dev side I think it's definitely a viable option.

[Carassaurat]

Question(ish). In a traditional funding model, the risks and rewards are linked; whether it's funded by investors, publishers or self funded, the people who pay the money for development also make most money in return. What happens with Kickstarter is that the backers take all the risk, but if the project succeeds it's the developer that reaps the reward. A system in which one party gets paid regardless and can potentially grow rich if the result is good, and the other party takes all the risk but never gets more than a predetermined product regardless of how valuable his or her contribution was in the end doesn't seem fair to me. It can often be beneficial for both parties, but I don't see how it can ever be fair.

@Carassaurat: Yeah, that kind of bothers me.

I don't really see how you could support Kickstarters at all then. I mean, I trust Obscura completely and have absolute faith in her willingness and capability do deliver the product she promised, but the method that Kickstarter uses reduces you to some kind of odd hybrid of funder and consumer, with the downsides of both and not all of the benefits, rights and privileges. Whether that's an infringement on consumer rights or putting you into a new kind of category that simply has less rights than a consumer doesn't really make much of a difference here. The question is how many rights and privileges you're willing to give away in order to get a product you otherwise wouldn't be able to get, and in my case the answer is none. For most in this thread, the answer seems to be that it depends on how badly they want the product, and that scares me.

FWIW, I've been part of a Kickstarted project in the past and we raised several hundred thousand. I'm ashamed to admit that I got caught up in its enthusiasm and had a lot of fun seeing the money trickle in.

[Aines445]

Damnit, people from the Land of Wonderzzzz can't use that! XD

But I think that's a lot of pressure, because if someone donates, you MUST finish it, or the money (And the hopes) of the people will all be for nothing. And I'm a huge procrastinator X.X. And I also don't have anything planned, so I guess I'm free from that.....for now ;D. I don't usually donate (I'm sorry) because I kind of need it or I die XD, no, now really, It's bad in the Land of Wonderzzzz, don't be fooled by it's amazing name. And I would rather go for experience 1, but when I'm prepared for it.

[Sapphi]

The idea of using some of the psychological manipulation techniques I've seen employed by some kickstarters makes my skin crawl.

Yes. This.
I'm not some kind of communist on a crusade against everything commercial, but I feel like a lot of advertising tactics are necessarily dishonest and ultimately drive a wedge between creator and consumer. Sort of defeats the purpose of why I want to write stories in the first place...

[TrickWithAKnife]

Am I unusual in that I feel that creating a game without some kind of marketing or promotion is like creating a visual novel without a name?

Of course it will work, and can still be great, but after all that work, it's a shame to not make your game easier to find.

[KomiTsuku]

Despite my earlier joke post, I'm considerably leery towards kickstarters, especially from those who come from untested developers. There's a lot you learn those first couple games; shortcuts, bad ideas, basic storytelling in this medium, ect. When I see someone burst forward and claim to have the next Fate/Stay, I almost break down from laughing so hard. Even those who are aiming towards niches, you need to have some sort of experience in the medium before I will consider throwing my money behind you. Otherwise it is just hype and hype is rarely a sound investment. Seeing untested developers get handed large sums of money boggles my mind, both as a developer and as an investor.

I'm also not a fan of kickstarting because of the overwhelming commitment it means. It means that no matter how bad things dissolve into during development, you HAVE to push something out for your backers. I have a very strong experience with that one (not kickstarter, but just an investment) when development fell apart. It happens sometimes, no matter how prepared you think you are. Hell, over 50% of small businesses fail in the first five years. I should have terminated development and wrote it off as a loss to save myself valuable time and money. However, due to other investments being in there, that call was no longer mine. Now I have to deal with a poor release, a massive loss of time, and a tarnished reputation. The loss of being able to play the "shite has fallen apart, let's reconsider our options" card is a dangerous one, especially for new developers who might not be as committed in two months as they are when they take my money. If I am going to do a kickstarter (like for the upcoming swimming otome being planned), I am not going to put myself into that position without a detailed plan on how I am going to do everything, knowledge on how to react if deviations are needed, and a complete team committed to said plan.

At the same time, I understand that desire to kickstart. After years of fronting the bills myself and never seeing a dime of return, I can understand why people might not want to put their own money at risk. I think it is a good idea that can help improve the overall quality. It just needs to be feasible. (And for the love of all that is good, don't say that you'll still develop everything with or without the money. Let me at least think that my money is going towards something other than your pocket.)

I dunno... I think of a lot of kickstarters (as a whole, not VNs) like this because rarely is the hype the same thing that you get.

[Obscura]

If I ever *did* try to make that fullscale yuri eroge I would almost certainly have to kickstart it... however, the skillset for running a successful kickstarter is not quite the same as that for actually selling games I've made, so it might simply result in disappointment and disaster. Meh.

If you know how to tell a story, that's at least 50% of what you'll need to know in terms of marketing on Kickstarter.

I make games. I am not so good at people. I do not do well trying to go from website to website with a marching band getting folks to notice me. My extremely limited press coverage speaks to this. The idea of using some of the psychological manipulation techniques I've seen employed by some kickstarters makes my skin crawl. I'm also incapable of boldly lying and claiming that I am doing the most revolutionary thing ever when I'm not. (And have been known to reply bitchily to certain companies who want me to run their ads by pointing out, in detail, how many inaccuracies are in said ads) I just make stuff.

So, I have the sneaking suspicion that me just making a Kickstarter and plopping it up there will lead to a big fat nothing, except only worse than nothing, because it will make me look like an idiot to those few people who notice it. Bad for business.

I have seen you on forums before, advertising your games, doing just fine. What makes you think you're bad at it?

Also, your understanding of what you need to do (lying and manipulation) to have a successful Kickstarter is really inaccurate. Of course, it helps if you yourself believe you are making an amazing product, if not a revolutionary one.

If the problem is not wanting to interact with people, you are probably going to have someone be your spokesperson. You are constantly going to be barraged with all manner of comments and questions and interviews. If you do not enjoy talking to people about your game, it's going to be a very difficult 30 days or so.

In terms of looking like an idiot, I don't know why anybody would care. You're doing something that's pretty edgy, and if worse comes to worst and not everyone is on board, I don't see how that would damage business.

Edit: the other thing you can do, but perhaps are doing already, is start by taking a tally of people who would support your Kickstarter to reassure you'd at least get funding. Personally, I did go around to several forums asking if people would even be interested in my game and letting them know I might Kickstart it several months even before I started the project. But again...that required going to forums. It wasn't drum beating, it was more "hi, does this interest you?" Not sure how you feel about doing that.

Even those who are aiming towards niches, you need to have some sort of experience in the medium before I will consider throwing my money behind you.

This is understandable and I respect your opinion. My own opinion is that it's not rocket science to make a VN, after having made one with a complete story, with endings and one path. But it's a very long grind.

I'm not some kind of communist on a crusade against everything commercial, but I feel like a lot of advertising tactics are necessarily dishonest and ultimately drive a wedge between creator and consumer. Sort of defeats the purpose of why I want to write stories in the first place...

I am a huge skeptic of ads. I can't remember the last time I actually bought anything based on an ad. What they ARE good for is telling people "hello, I'm here", much more than "OMG you need this so much."

Is nobody going to mention indiegogo, though? I know it's around the same concept, but what do people think about the fact that the producer can still run off with the pot (just with some more tax than usual) without it reaching the goal?

Yes, that definitely makes it less attractive from a consumer's standpoint.

In addition, you can get heaps of funding from Indiegogo, but I do notice it's a lot harder to get attention on that site from the press. A lot of indiegaming and video game sites pay attention strictly to Indiegogo to see what games pop up. Most of those sites pretty much ignored my game but it got picked up by the gay press instead via Kickstarter.

From my own personal experience, I had quite a number of people saying "so I was browsing through Kickstarter and I saw your game...". These are people who LOVE Kickstarter and go around looking for projects to fund on a weekly basis. I don't think Indiegogo has that number of dedicated funders yet.

[vividXP]

Isn't 'psychological manipulation' just another way to say 'marketing'?

I kid, sort of. Sure there are the extremes and some people are just lying or exaggerating (purposely or unawarely). For example, I've seen a video game kickstarter that claims some extra super cool special awesome features and they even had a video, but what was shown wasn't gameplay, it was a 3d animation concept rendering of idealized gameplay. You don't know if it's possible of if it even really makes sense as a feature. But they're relying on people not thinking past the initial 'oh that looks cool' and donating.

Question(ish). In a traditional funding model, the risks and rewards are linked; whether it's funded by investors, publishers or self funded, the people who pay the money for development also make most money in return. What happens with Kickstarter is that the backers take all the risk, but if the project succeeds it's the developer that reaps the reward. A system in which one party gets paid regardless and can potentially grow rich if the result is good, and the other party takes all the risk but never gets more than a predetermined product regardless of how valuable his or her contribution was in the end doesn't seem fair to me. It can often be beneficial for both parties, but I don't see how it can ever be fair.

re: investors not seeing any return, depends on the kickstarter. There's stuff like the Ouya kickstarter campaign which basically served as a pre-ordering period for the console. So while they aren't getting profits or some sort of stake in the campaign's future success, you still are getting something out of what you put in. Of course you'll still have your people donate 200 bucks to fund a 20 dollar game.

Now mind you, this pre-ordering model is not the same thing as kickstarter perks. Of all the ink spent on writing about the troubles of kickstarter, I think perks are one of the biggest problems. Folks do the most without really thinking about the consequences down the line. T-shirts, clay figurines, soundtracks, artbooks, hard copies, etc., is less time and money you can put towards what you actually started the kickstarter for. I think people are looking at other kickstarters and feeling like they have to over bigger and bigger perks for big money donors. Not true at all.

[Blue Lemma]

@Carassaurat: It's because in certain cases, it's not a perfect solution, but it's probably the best solution for certain things to get made.

I sort of roll my eyes at the kickstarter debate. A lot of it stems from people sipping the soup grape flavored haterade. And as it's been said several times, people are going to do what they want with their money.

It's not haterade, but kind of like when you go to a casino and hear people complaining about how their social security checks are too small, while they're pumping hundreds of dollars into slot machines. (not to get into a social security debate, that's not my point)

Sure you can do what you want with your money, but.... yeah. Maybe not the best analogy ever, but if you've ever been to a casino and seen this, you probably know exactly what I mean Yet another reason I stay away from casinos

And I'm not gonna lie: When you've poured yourself into something - your time, your hard-earned money, your development experience, into a product you took the risk on yourself (freeware, commercial, whatever) and receive criticism (some fair, some unfair)... and then see people throwing large sums of money and praise at unfinished cliched projects not backed by experience, it hurts.

It's discouraging. If that makes me a hater, I guess I'm a hater. I think it makes me human.

Moral: Don't set yourself up for that. Go get Kickstarted

[Obscura]

It's discouraging. If that makes me a hater, I guess I'm a hater. I think it makes me human.

Just one thing...you're assuming that some of us didn't suffer and pay our dues in other fields (aka writing) before we got into VN's.

Just sayin'.

[Blue Lemma]

Just one thing...you're assuming that some of us didn't suffer and pay our dues in other fields (aka writing) before we got into VN's.

Just sayin'.

Just sayin' that when someone says she's just sayin', she means more than she's just sayin'

But I really don't assume that in all cases. Leading a project and executing a plan can carry over across fields to a large extent.

I do assume it when the creators are in the 18-22 range, as is often the case with the projects I'm talking about (not only talking about VNs.) You'd have to have had a pretty darn amazing, exceptional life to have done anything decent by then that would carry over.

I'm kind of waiting (hoping? ) for someone to acknowledge "yeah that would kind of suck." Walk a mile in my shoes. People have told me about their similar kickstarter complaints, off the forum, but I think they don't want to speak publicly. Why? It's not a happyfuzzy sentiment. Kickstarter sells happyfuzzies. No one wants to sound like a fuzzyhater. No one wants to rain on the happyfuzzy parade by voicing their issues, but there are some real issues beyond the "is it a good model?"

Maybe I'm just nuts, but the more I think about it, the more of a game-dev crisis I have. It's really really hard to feel good about working on a freeware game I'm spending $800+ on, when I see some of the KS projects and the cash grenades and fuzzies being lobbed.

[Lishy]

Hey Lemma-chan, are we justified making a kickstarter if we already invested $1000 of our own pocket-money into the VN?

Would pricey dedication be an exception to experience?

[Blue Lemma]

Hey Lemma-chan, are we justified making a kickstarter if we already invested $1000 of our own pocket-money into the VN?

Would pricey dedication be an exception to experience?

It shows you're more serious, although there really needs to be no justification for any of this, as the KS model shows. If people were willing to pay you $5000 for a thumbtack, by all means, sell them the thumbtack No one needs to explain him/herself.

If I were considering funding someone, I'd be more inclined to do so if they had their own money invested.